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'Jewish and Democratic'

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    #62
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,404 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Siuin wrote: »
    They can call Israel a pariah state, racist, promoting apartheid, ethnic cleansing and compare them to Nazis, yet I'm the one told to 'chill out'
    Yep.

    Have a read of the forum charter and get back to either Dades or myself by PM if you have any questions:

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054860288


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    #63
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Banbh wrote: »
    This is the kind of muddle you get when people are defined by 'community' or ethnicity. The Nazis (they always crop up when race is discussed) had definitions of half-Jew and quarter-Jew etc. The Israeli model is purely on the maternal line so I, a quarter-Jew by Nazi rules, can be a full Jew and an Israeli citizen by Israeli law (if I chose to ignore my three-quarter Irishness) with full voting and marriage rights in Israel.

    It's racist nonsense of course as anyone with a rudimentary knowledge of the origins of our species knows.

    Since you brought up the Nazi's, the US had very strict laws, some say even more strict than 1933 Germany in regards of miscegenation. Would you have called the US undemocratic because it would not allow a 1/4 african-american marry a white person?

    You need to define the terms of your argument. Sweden might be held up as the defacto model of a western democracy, yet it has a monarchy... does that mean Ireland or France is more democratic?

    It is without question that using internationally recognised studies and research that Israel offers its citizens more freedoms and liberties than ANY of its Middle Eastern or North African neighbours.


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    #64
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    jank wrote: »
    Since you brought up the Nazi's, the US had very strict laws, some say even more strict than 1933 Germany in regards of miscegenation. Would you have called the US undemocratic because it would not allow a 1/4 african-american marry a white person?

    You need to define the terms of your argument. Sweden might be held up as the defacto model of a western democracy, yet it has a monarchy... does that mean Ireland or France is more democratic?.

    Swedens monarchy has no powers.
    jank wrote: »
    It is without question that using internationally recognised studies and research that Israel offers its citizens more freedoms and liberties than ANY of its Middle Eastern or North African neighbours.


    ...only if you exclude the regime it imposes on the OT.


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    #65
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Nodin wrote: »
    Swedens monarchy has no powers..
    Doesnt matter if they live in a garbage dump, the swedish people have no right presently to vote on who their head of state is, Ireland does so does make Ireland more democratic. The point is that you will find no country that is some utopian democratic nation state.

    Nodin wrote: »
    ...only if you exclude the regime it imposes on the OT.
    Still beating that drum? Werent they offered citizenship but refused?
    Anyway, that is off topic, respect your mod.


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    #66
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    jank wrote: »
    Doesnt matter if they live in a garbage dump, the swedish people have no right presently to vote on who their head of state is, Ireland does so does make Ireland more democratic. The point is that you will find no country that is some utopian democratic nation state..

    A monarchy that has no input or power is irrelevant. You might as well say Ireland is undemocratic because we don't get to vote whats displayed in the national museum.
    jank wrote: »
    Still beating that drum? Werent they offered citizenship but refused?
    Anyway, that is off topic, respect your mod.

    Not in the West Bank they weren't.

    As Israel is being mooted as a "democracy", mentioning how they deny the vote and basic rights to well over two million people is entirely on topic.


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    #67
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Nodin wrote: »
    A monarchy that has no input or power is irrelevant. You might as well say Ireland is undemocratic because we don't get to vote whats displayed in the national museum..


    Its the head of state, not the book of kells. :rolleyes:
    Nodin wrote: »
    Not in the West Bank they weren't.

    As Israel is being mooted as a "democracy", mentioning how they deny the vote and basic rights to well over two million people is entirely on topic.
    Those in the west bank do have a vote but not in Israeli elections. How are they denying them the vote when they are not citizens in the first place?


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    #68
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    jank wrote: »
    Its the head of state, not the book of kells. :rolleyes:

    They have no power whatsoever.
    jank wrote: »
    Those in the west bank do have a vote but not in Israeli elections. How are they denying them the vote when they are not citizens in the first place?

    I'd suggest reading at least the three articles below and getting back to me on that one.

    http://www.btselem.org/settlements

    http://www.btselem.org/settlements/annexation

    http://www.btselem.org/topic/settlements


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    #69
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Nodin wrote: »
    They have no power whatsoever.


    I'd suggest reading at least the three articles below and getting back to me on that one.

    http://www.btselem.org/settlements

    http://www.btselem.org/settlements/annexation

    http://www.btselem.org/topic/settlements


    Hmmmm,
    Critics of B'tselem have challenged the accuracy of its reports. The Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting in America (CAMERA) and the Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs charged that B'tselem repeatedly classified Arab combatants and terrorists as civilian casualties.[46][47][48][49][50] NGO Monitor said that B'tselem distorts its data and uses "abusive and demonizing rhetoric designed to elicit political support for Palestinians

    By the way, you are bringing this topic off topic.


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    #70
    Chuck Stone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,030 ✭✭✭✭Chuck Stone


    jank wrote: »
    Hmmmm,

    Hmmm indeed.

    CAMERA
    Commenting on the incident [Camera campaign in Wikipedia] Gershom Gorenberg, of the liberal magazine The American Prospect, stated "CAMERA is ready to exempt itself from the demands for accuracy that it aims at the media. And like others engaged in the narrative wars, it does not understand the difference between advocacy and accuracy." Gorenberg criticized CAMERA for telling members not to share information about the campaign with media, and he also argued Ini's definition of accuracy "only means not printing anything embarrassing to his own side"

    Source


    Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs
    JCPA is a pro-Israel organisation, promoting a positive image of Israel, advocating Israels right to exist and fighting anti-semitism. It advocates the Israeli annexation of East Jerusalem and its lasting control of the West Bank and Golan Heights. It opposes a unilateral Palestinian drive toward statehood

    Source
    _______________________________________________________

    As for the OP, trying to make some sort of connection between the two diffuse concepts/random variables that are 'democratic' and 'Jewish' seems like an exercise in futility.


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    #71
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,276 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Banbh wrote: »
    Most countries do not define citizenship by ethnicity. In fact with the obvious exception of Israel I can think of any other country which legislates for ethnic origins and has laws to define what that means.
    Huh? "Irish" isn't an ethnicity?

    Europe largely consists of nation-states and, as is to be expected from a nation-state, the body of citizens generally has a clear ethnic identity. Of course you don't have to be ethnically Irish to become an Irish citizen, but the great bulk of Irish citizens are ethnically Irish, and our citizenship-by-descent laws largely favour people of at least part-Irish ethnicity. And similar comments could be made about most European countries.

    In fact, Israel is more restrictive on this than Ireland is. To become an Israeli citizen, you have to (a) have one Jewish grandparent, and (b) immigrate to Israel with a view to settling there. That requires a pretty significant personal commmitment to the Israeli community, as far as I can see. Whereas, to become an Irish citizen, you just need the appopriate degree of Irish descent; you don't need to make any personal commitment at all to the Irish community. You may never set foot on the island, never mind live there or pay taxes there or raise your children there.


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    #72
    Banbh
    Registered Users Posts: 1,037 ✭✭✭Banbh


    Irish or British or French citizens do not have to belong to a particular religion or ethnicity. The fact that most on this island are probably of the same stock is not a legal requirement.
    Israel's position is ambiguous because it chooses to define Jewishness as either a religion or a nationality as it pleases in order to bring in colonists for the land cleared of the native population. The African migrants who tried to become Israelis got short shrift under the religious definition but I can become an Israeli and probably buy a nice farm very cheaply once the natives have been cleared off the land and their dwellings bulldozed. They will have no vote but I will. That it not democracy by any stretch of the word.


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    #73
    Siuin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,659 ✭✭✭Siuin


    Banbh wrote: »
    The African migrants who tried to become Israelis got short shrift under the religious definition
    I wonder how Ireland would respond if a wave of African refugees showed up on their doorstep demanding asylum? Israel is a tiny country with limited resources without taking their neighbours problems upon themselves. One would think that they would get refuge with their Muslim, Arab speaking bretherns though, no? Oh yeah that's right, Egypt is shooting Sudanese like dogs on their border (over 50 men, women and children killed since 2007) and suffer ongoing racist abuse and police violence there.


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    #74
    Banbh
    Registered Users Posts: 1,037 ✭✭✭Banbh


    If migrants showed up in Ireland claiming citizenship on the grounds that they were Protestant or Catholic (or any religion that they thought was a state religion here) they would be treated as are all migrants - no special treatment for any religion.
    And as regards the other stuff in your post, I think I have already dismissed this (rather wittily in my opinion) in this post with the comment: that the Irish are kind to animals because the French eat horses, or somthing like that.
    Why do apologists for Israel constantly shout that there are worse religious bigots than them in the Middle East? We know - but this doesn't make Israel any less religiously intolerant or any less objectionable to democrats and atheists.


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    #75
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Banbh wrote: »
    Why do apologists for Israel constantly shout that there are worse religious bigots than them in the Middle East? We know - but this doesn't make Israel any less religiously intolerant or any less objectionable to democrats and atheists.

    Please define what you mean by a 'democrat'. Give an example.


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    #76
    Lingua Franca
    Registered Users Posts: 2,800 ✭✭✭Lingua Franca


    Siuin wrote: »
    I wonder how Ireland would respond if a wave of African refugees showed up on their doorstep demanding asylum? Israel is a tiny country with limited resources without taking their neighbours problems upon themselves. One would think that they would get refuge with their Muslim, Arab speaking bretherns though, no? Oh yeah that's right, Egypt is shooting Sudanese like dogs on their border (over 50 men, women and children killed since 2007) and suffer ongoing racist abuse and police violence there.

    These are black, Jewish Africans. Israel has no problem with welcoming white Jews in from America, Europe and Australia and giving them massive subsidies to go and live in the illegal settlements, which is a source of contention to most Israelis, but they want nothing to do with black Jews and treat them very poorly. Racism is rife.

    As an example, calling them refugees and asylum seekers.


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    #77
    Siuin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,659 ✭✭✭Siuin


    Lingua Franca wrote: »
    they want nothing to do with black Jews and treat them very poorly. Racism is rife.
    They want nothing to do with black Jews!? Seriously? The black Jews they risked their lives to bring into Israel (the only country in the history of mankind of bring Africans into their country enmasse not as slaves but to give them full citizenship?!) That's complete BS. I lived with and worked alongside Ethiopian Jews and they haven't been discriminated against any more than the Russians or any other different wave of aliyah which has some into the country. Israel is no more racist than any European country.
    Banbh wrote: »
    If migrants showed up in Ireland claiming citizenship on the grounds that they were Protestant or Catholic (or any religion that they thought was a state religion here) they would be treated as are all migrants - no special treatment for any religion.
    FYI Protestants and Catholics haven't been persecuted for thousands of years and murdered in their millions simply because of their religion. Israel has that law in place because they're trying to safeguard the few Jews who are left in this world. If you have no interest in taking up citizenship, that's your choice, but there are many more of us who have been treated like shít and rather look forward to a time when we can live in a country where we won't have to constantly be explaining ourselves to others or getting immature jibes about being stingy, big nosed Jews.


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    #78
    Siuin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,659 ✭✭✭Siuin


    Lingua Franca wrote: »
    As an example, calling them refugees and asylum seekers.
    FYI my referencces to asylum seekers and refugees were in regards to the non-Jewish African refugees who have been flooding into Isreal.


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    #79
    Lingua Franca
    Registered Users Posts: 2,800 ✭✭✭Lingua Franca


    Israelis actually living in Israel tell me first handthat racism is rife and they're actually out protesting it.

    http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/israeli-ethiopians-suffer-from-racism-directed-at-african-migrants-1.458247
    http://www.jpost.com/JewishWorld/JewishFeatures/Article.aspx?id=256492
    http://www.irinnews.org/report/94819/ISRAEL-The-tribulations-of-being-an-Ethiopian-Jew
    http://www.pbs.org/wnet/religionandethics/episodes/march-30-2012/ethiopian-jews/10643/
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/expat/expatnews/6613020/Ethiopian-Jews-in-Israel-still-await-the-promised-land.html
    http://rense.com/general25/rct.htm
    http://rt.com/news/ethiopian-jews-israel-status/







    ...etc.


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    #80
    Siuin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,659 ✭✭✭Siuin


    Oh please, don't bore me with this BS and try to pretend that Israel is the only country in the world with such problems. As much as people love to judge Israelis on a different standard to everyone else in the world, Israel actually has the same issues as any other country (with obvious added security concerns).

    Following violent civil war and extreme famine in their country of origin, Ethiopians were brought to Israel in two massive waves- what do you think would happen in Ireland if 100,000 Africans were suddenly thrust into civilian life, speaking a different language, from an entirely different economic background which was mostly agricultural (therefore without skills needed in an industrialised society), completely unaccustomed to modern conveniences like electricity or television and with an illiteracy rate of over 90% among adults over 37?

    I for one think Israel did a damn good job in integrating them, and the best anyone could do in such circumstances. They're very recent arrivals in Israel and all waves of new immigrants face challenges.


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    #81
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,404 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Siuin wrote: »
    Oh please, don't bore me with this BS [...]
    Siuin - again, please calm down.


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    #82
    Banbh
    Registered Users Posts: 1,037 ✭✭✭Banbh


    FYI Protestants and Catholics haven't been persecuted for thousands of years and murdered in their millions simply because of their religion.

    FYI: Eh, yes they have! The history of Europe over the last thousand years is mostly concerned with the killings of Protestants and of Catholics. It is probably one of the reasons that people living in European democracies abhor countries with state religion.

    And I can see your cards and I can see you slipping that Holocaust one to the top of the deck. So, FYI the Holocaust was undoubtedly the greatest crime in human history and the fact that the state of Israel engages in ethnic-cleansing is one of the greatest ironies of history.


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    #83
    Siuin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,659 ✭✭✭Siuin


    Banbh wrote: »
    FYI: Eh, yes they have! The history of Europe over the last thousand years is mostly concerned with the killings of Protestants and of Catholics.
    Nowhere even close to the same scale as Jews have endured. Catholics and Protestants can easily move to a country where their denomination is in the majority- for Jews, there's only one such place and yet the world still villifies them even after they've almost all abandoned Europe.
    Banbh wrote: »
    And I can see your cards and I can see you slipping that Holocaust one to the top of the deck. So, FYI the Holocaust was undoubtedly the greatest crime in human history and the fact that the state of Israel engages in ethnic-cleansing is one of the greatest ironies of history.
    Time and time again I hear the same 'Holocaust card' nonsense - if anyone actually thinks that the attitudes which spurred the Holocaust have no relation to the unhealthy fixation people have on Israel, then they're extremely naive. You need only pop over to the Conspiracy Theories forum to see that anti-Semitism is still rife, but now it's dressed up as 'anti-Zionism'. If all this was only a matter of human rights we'd be talking about Syria right now.

    As for the 'Nazi state' remark- I think that's a pretty disgusting thing for anyone to say about the Jewish homeland and find any attempts to equate Jews with Nazis highly distateful.


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    #84
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    Siuin wrote: »
    As for the 'Nazi state' remark- I think that's a pretty disgusting thing for anyone to say about the Jewish homeland and find any attempts to equate Jews with Nazis highly distateful.
    Where was this remark?


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    #85
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    And of course, theres the Bedouin....

    http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/un-rights-panel-slams-israel-over-treatment-of-bedouin-1.8696

    http://www.hrw.org/sites/default/files/reports/iopt0308webwcover.pdf


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    #86
    Siuin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,659 ✭✭✭Siuin


    Dades wrote: »
    Where was this remark?
    Some nice ninja editing going on here :rolleyes: She had previously written the 'the fact that the nazi state of Israel'

    Nodin, I have two words for you: Irish travellers.


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    #87
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Siuin wrote: »
    Some nice ninja editing going on here :rolleyes: She had previously written the 'the fact that the nazi state of Israel'

    Nodin, I have two words for you: Irish travellers.


    I'm not seeing the connection, myself. While there is indeed massive discrimination against travellers in this country, you won't find this going on
    http://www.haaretz.com/news/video-kiryat-gat-tells-its-school-girls-no-romancing-with-bedouin-1.248771
    or this
    http://www.haaretz.com/news/ila-destroys-bedouin-crops-it-says-were-planted-illegally-1.52972

    It might be good to note that if in fact Ireland was trying to deport travellers to a camp in the aran islands, that would not mean that the Israeli actions in the various circumstances mentioned had not in fact happened.


    Then of course, theres the Israeli-palestinian population- a few examples...

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/19/AR2007121902681.html?hpid=topnews&sid=ST2007121902748

    http://www.hrw.org/news/2001/12/04/israeli-schools-separate-not-equal

    http://www.hrw.org/news/2011/03/30/israel-new-laws-marginalize-palestinian-arab-citizens


    ..and then theres what happens in the OT.


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    #88
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    Ironically, this works out as a discrimination against Jewish Israelis......

    There’s no similar problem for non-Jewish mixed marriages. If a Maronite and a Greek Orthodox, say, wish to marry, no problem. They can get married, lawfully and effectively, in Israel, since they belong to communities which will celebrate mixed marriages.

    I don't see how this is discrimination against Jews; there should be no problem for a Jew to marry a Maronite or Greek Orthodox person in the partner's church (except that the Jew would probably not agree to it him/herself)
    If Jews themselves will not entertain the idea of mixed marriages, they can hardly plead that they are victims of discrimination.

    On the other hand, Muslim men would be allowed to practice polygamy under their own religious law, as was allowed under the old Ottoman and British systems. But modern Israeli law forbids it. Therefore that is Israeli state interference in the religious marital customs of Muslims.

    The first civil marriage in Israel happened last year. This is a welcome recent development to accommodate Israeli citizens of no religion.


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    #89
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Why was my last post deleted?


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    #90
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    jank wrote: »
    Why was my last post deleted?
    You had a post deleted 5 days ago because it referred to moderation of the forum. Since then I see no deleted posts.


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    #91
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    A very clear and concise description of Israeli electoral procedures concerning Arab parliamentarians and candidates

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/116658353/Questions-and-Answers-Israeli-Elections-Arab-Parliamentarians-2012


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