'Jewish and Democratic'

Nodin

brimal wrote: »

Completely missing the point of the post. And I never saw the user say what Israel does is grand?

Israel gets a disproportionate amount of attention/condemnation/abuse when there is arguably more worse goings-on in the world.

Time and time again I see anti-Israel folk agree with this but they can never give a credible reason as to why this is the case.

You've been given one but refuse to process it.

Lets see Iran - under sanctions, North Korea? Under sanctions - Sudan/Northern Sudan? - under sanctions. Syria? under sanctions. Zimbabwe? Under sanctions. Likewise Yemen,Cuba and Belarus, alomng with numerous organisations and individuals in Lebanon, the Congo, Ivory coast and feck knows elsewhere.

Penalties and sanctions currently imposed on Israel? None.

SeanW

How many sanctions is Saudi Arabia under?

Nodin

SeanW wrote: »

How many sanctions is Saudi Arabia under?

None, nor could it be, because its actions are - whatever you might think of them - not thought beyond the pale by members of the UNSC.

And there is the fact that they generally act within their international borders.

What have Saudi Arabia to do with the thread topic?

Lingua Franca

SeanW wrote: »

How many sanctions is Saudi Arabia under?

Could you answer my question, please? It's at the top of the page. Thank you.

Bannasidhe

Lingua Franca wrote: »

Huh? Are you blaming "lefty-multiculturalists" for antisemitism, or the increase in the Islamic population or both?

If it is the former does that mean Jewish lefty-multiculturalists are self hating?

I must ask my lefty multiculturalist Israeli friends (like the one who told me she considered Zionism to be another form of Fascism) if she is antisemitic. I imagine her reply will be ...colourful.

SeanW

Bannasidhe wrote: »

If it is the former does that mean Jewish lefty-multiculturalists are self hating?

I must ask my lefty multiculturalist Israeli friends (like the one who told me she considered Zionism to be another form of Fascism) if she is antisemitic. I imagine her reply will be ...colourful.

You could also ask her if she'd like to move to Malmo or Tolouse? Where thanks to multiculturalism, the Jewish schools are built like prisons and the synagogues have to have the police on standby at all times. Such a paradise for Jews!

Nodin wrote: »

And there is the fact that they generally act within their international borders.

You've been given evidence that this is not accurate - they are responsible for spreading Wahabbism worldwide, including the U.K and possibly Ireland as well (given the mandate of the Cultural Bureau attached to their embassy in the U.K. That means anti Semitism, homophobia and a general hatred of all things non-Muslim. Again, I'm not saying Israel is perfect, I do believe it should be criticised if it does something wrong, I'm simply asking the PC Multi-culti left for proportionality.

Which BTW you don't seem to have a serious problem with.

What have Saudi Arabia to do with the thread topic?

You mentioned how all these ****hole countries except Israel were under sanctions. I pointed out that S.A. is far worse than Israel yet is also not under sanctions.

Bannasidhe

SeanW wrote: »

You could also ask her if she'd like to move to Malmo or Tolouse?

Well, life was made pretty unpleasant for her in Beit Shemesh so she may consider it. They live in Paris now.

Funnily enough - her Girlfriend is from Malmo (of all the cities you had to pick that one ) so they could stay with her family.

They are Swedish Jewish lefty multiculturalists.

Nodin

SeanW wrote: »

..........

You mentioned how all these ****hole countries except Israel were under sanctions. I pointed out that S.A. is far worse than Israel yet is also not under sanctions.

My thoughts on Saudi can be revealed by use of the search function.

SA is not in violation of international law, Israel is.

SeanW

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Well, life was made pretty unpleasant for her in Beit Shemesh

How so?

Funnily enough - her Girlfriend is from Malmo (of all the cities you had to pick that one ) so they could stay with her family.

They are Swedish Jewish lefty multiculturalists.

Then I suggest that if your friends' girlfriend and her family lives in Malmo and has not been subject to anti Semitism, they have been very lucky, given that anti Semitism is rampant in Malmo and the whole area of Southern Sweden is under a travel advisory from the Simon Weisenthal Centre for that reason.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Semitism#Sweden

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_Sweden

Lingua Franca

SeanW, would you please answer my question from post #121 before slinging around even more accusations of anti semitism?

Bannasidhe

SeanW wrote: »

How so?

Oh - attacks on her for doing voluntary work a free clinic in Gaza (she is an MD)....oh my, do you think the attacks were inspired by antisemitism :eek:...she is Jewish after all. Was she being attacked by a group of Zionist antisemitic monoculturists? Or maybe it was homophobes...

Then I suggest that if your friends' girlfriend and her family lives in Malmo and has not been subject to anti Semitism, they have been very lucky, given that anti Semitism is rampant in Malmo and the whole area of Southern Sweden is under a travel advisory from the Simon Weisenthal Centre for that reason.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Semitism#Sweden

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_Sweden

Really - I lived in the East End of London during the bad days of the Troubles and the bombing campaign in the UK when the area was said to be 'rampant' with anti-Irish sentiment. I experienced the exact opposite.

I am not saying there was no anti-Irish sentiment but 'rampant'...no.

Sure what would a Swedish Jew born and raised in Malmo know about her own city? Perhaps Wikipedia's anonymous contributors whose agenda is unknown are a much more reliable source...or maybe not.

Have you ever been to Malmo? Or Sweden even? Northern Europe???
Toulouse? France????

I may be wrong, but I seem to recall you making sweeping statements about UK society and it turned out you never lived there - it was unclear if you had even been there. Am wondering if this is the case again.


Now -perhaps you would answer Lingua Franca's question.

SeanW

Lingua Franca wrote: »

Huh? Are you blaming "lefty-multiculturalists" for antisemitism, or the increase in the Islamic population or both?

Anti semitism is a serious worldwide problem, but its particularly rampant in Islam, just as it once was with Christianity. I.E. Whereas once Christians spent a millenium demonising Jews as hated Christ killers, and spread blood libels that Jews murdered Christian children to use their blood in Passover meals, it is now common among extremist Islamists to accept that Jews are hated Prophet poisoners. And they steal the eyes of Palestinian children. And the now usual conspiracy theories about Jewish bankers running the world. And Zionists ... etc, etc, etc.

So yes, when you have an increase in the number of people who hate Jews, as is the case in parts of France and in Malmo, and where it is likely that Saudis and other Wahabbists are involved in the education of children, its natural that such a place will become more hostile to Jews than it had been before the arrival of the anti-Semitic groups.

As for the multicultural left, ye may not conciously hate Jews, but your disproportionate focus on Israel - especially in the context of European history, i.e. YOUR history as well as mine - raises more questions than answers.

In addition, the implication that all cultures are equal, that multiculturalism is great, that there is absolutely nothing whatsoever to fear from Islam in Europe, your silence on the issue of anti Semitism being taught to children, and your view that anyone who disagrees with you is a racist right wing bastard, leaves me in a situation where I see fit to compare the multicultural left to Neville Chaimberlain.

Banbh

Good luck with that Lingua Franca. If you have the patience to disentangle that rant of bigotry, racism and prejudice, you deserve a medal.

Nodin

SeanW wrote: »

......

As for the multicultural left, ye may not conciously hate Jews, but your disproportionate focus on Israel - especially in the context of European history, i.e. YOUR history as well as mine - raises more questions than answers.

..........

I can guarantee nobody who has posted on this thread has a go at Jews and Judaism as often or with the same vehemence you do with "Islam" and muslims.

SeanW

I believe I was careful to preface that with "extremists" and Islamists. I do not believe that all Muslims are crazy, or anti Semitic or extremists or anything, per se. But I do believe that anti Semitism is more common in Islam than elsewhere. Perhaps it has to do with Israel, or perhaps as a simple repeat of the stuff the Catholic church did in centuries past.

I also find the presence of Saudi textbooks teaching anti Semitism (and homophobia, and a hatred of apostates and blashpehemers etc) in the U.K. (indeed the actions of Saudis worldwide in general) is a matter of serious concern.

robindch

SeanW wrote: »

In addition, the implication that all cultures are equal, that multiculturalism is great, that there is absolutely nothing whatsoever to fear from Islam in Europe, your silence on the issue of anti Semitism being taught to children, and your view that anyone who disagrees with you is a racist right wing bastard, leaves me in a situation where I see fit to compare the multicultural left to Neville Chaimberlain.

Your thinking is garbled here and a full reply to these claims would take more time than I have available just now. I would recommend, however, that you grab a copy of the following book which discusses at some length, broadly, what you refer to as the "multicultural left", and certainly more accurately than fringe right-wingers, conspiracy theorists, Dana and Alive!

http://www.amazon.co.uk/War-Childrens-Minds-Stephen-Law/dp/0415427681

SeanW wrote: »

As for the multicultural left, ye may not conciously hate Jews, but your disproportionate focus on Israel [...] raises more questions than answers.

Sean - are you accusing posters here in A+A of anti-semitism?

If so, please report the posts concerned and the moderators will deal with it quickly and cleanly. If not, then don't make these accusations or you will be dealt with quickly and cleanly yourself.

Lingua Franca

SeanW wrote: »

Anti semitism is a serious worldwide problem, but its particularly rampant in Islam, just as it once was with Christianity. I.E. Whereas once Christians spent a millenium demonising Jews as hated Christ killers, and spread blood libels that Jews murdered Christian children to use their blood in Passover meals, it is now common among extremist Islamists to accept that Jews are hated Prophet poisoners. And they steal the eyes of Palestinian children. And the now usual conspiracy theories about Jewish bankers running the world. And Zionists ... etc, etc, etc.

So yes, when you have an increase in the number of people who hate Jews, as is the case in parts of France and in Malmo, and where it is likely that Saudis and other Wahabbists are involved in the education of children, its natural that such a place will become more hostile to Jews than it had been before the arrival of the anti-Semitic groups.

As for the multicultural left, ye may not conciously hate Jews, but your disproportionate focus on Israel - especially in the context of European history, i.e. YOUR history as well as mine - raises more questions than answers.

In addition, the implication that all cultures are equal, that multiculturalism is great, that there is absolutely nothing whatsoever to fear from Islam in Europe, your silence on the issue of anti Semitism being taught to children, and your view that anyone who disagrees with you is a racist right wing bastard, leaves me in a situation where I see fit to compare the multicultural left to Neville Chaimberlain.

I'll take that as a "no", then. :pac:

recedite

SeanW wrote: »

they are responsible for spreading Wahabbism worldwide, including the U.K and possibly Ireland as well

You mean this kind of thing
But at least they buy the land first, and then apply for planning permission.
They don't just arrive in with tanks and bulldozers, taking whatever land their god told them to take.

biko

recedite wrote: »

You mean this kind of thing
But at least they buy the land first, and then apply for planning permission.
They don't just arrive in with tanks and bulldozers, taking whatever land their god told them to take.

The land occupied by Israel was taken during war (started by the surrounding nations), it was not taken by some divine order.

However, they need this buffer land to have ample warning from Hamas rockets, planes and armies that have attacked twice since the state was formed. And probably will attack again.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Xcnfh0JhnM

Speaking of Hamas rockets, even Human Rights Watchs are now saying Hamas rockets from Gaza violated laws of war.
“Palestinian armed groups made clear in their statements that harming civilians was their aim,” said HRW’s Middle East director Sarah Leah Whitson. “There is simply no legal justification for launching rockets at populated areas.”
http://www.hrw.org/news/2012/12/24/gaza-palestinian-rockets-unlawfully-targeted-israeli-civilians

Not that Hamas rocketing populated centres is going to change anyone's mind here. It is either Israel's own fault for existing in the first place or because they rocketed and killed people in the gaza strip last year.

biko

The opposition:

"Oh Lord, do not leave a single one of them on Earth ..."
One of Tunisia's leading Muslim clerics, Sheikh Ahmad Al-Suhayli, has publically called for the forced sterilization of Jewish women as reported by The Times of Israel on 20 December, 2012.
Appearing on Tunisia's Hannibal Television network, Al-Suhayli preached to the worshippers at his Khatib mosque;
"God wants to destroy this sprinkling of Jews… and is for sterilizing the wombs of Jewish women."

Reportedly, the Tunisian Association to Support Minorities is filing suit against the sheikh for violating the North African nation's Decree 115, which criminalizes "calls to hatred between races and religions, and the population."

http://www.examiner.com/article/tunisia-influential-imam-calls-for-sterilization-of-all-jewish-women
At least he's being sued by the Tunisian Association to Support Minorities so some people still oppose the killing of all jews, thankfully.
http://www.timesofisrael.com/tunisian-imam-sued-for-call-to-sterilize-the-wombs-of-jewish-women/



Reminds me of when the Swedish Socialdemocratic government would sterilise 60,000 people between 1935 and 1976 against their will, including "'mixed race individuals,' single mothers with many children, deviants, Gypsies, and other 'vagabonds.'"

Nodin

biko wrote: »

The land occupied by ........strip last year.

The West Bank is not a buffer against Gaza. Gaza is adjacent to Israel on the west side.

There is no justification for colonisation.

As regards the Tunisian cleric - do I have to start throwing out radical rabbis or will you accept theres lunatics in all religions?

SeanW

recedite wrote: »

You mean this kind of thing
But at least they buy the land first, and then apply for planning permission.
They don't just arrive in with tanks and bulldozers, taking whatever land their god told them to take.

Yes, they're clever enough to fly low on the radar, get their mosques built and then start preaching that women are deficient, Jews apostates and homosexuals should be killed, native law should be resisted etc.

Nodin wrote: »

As regards the Tunisian cleric - do I have to start throwing out radical rabbis or will you accept theres lunatics in all religions?

Go ahead: You do realise that there are only 13 million Jews in the world, total?

I don't know how radical your "radical rabbis" are, but I would guess that they are tame compared to the vile nutcases of Wahhabism/Salafism. I doubt that, for example, you will find many Jews advocating that their followers destroy their host countries from within, kill homosexuals, bomb Indian businesses, or any of the wonderful invitations to interfaith dialogue that come from (Saudi funded or run) mosques and schools in the U.K.

Even if every single Jew on Earth were glass eyed psychopaths that wanted to drown gentiles in their own blood, take over the world for Judaism etc, they would still be only a fraction of the total number of Wahhabists and/or Salafists on Earth. I can't find detailed total follower numbers but there's 28 million people in Saudi Arabia, most of them Wahhabists, enough Salafists in Egypt to elect a Muslim Brotherhood president and pass a religious constitution in referendum. And that's just two countries, before we look at Somalia, Pakistan etc.

There is no justification for colonisation.

Perhaps, perhaps not. I would take you more seriously though if you bashed Wahhabism/Salafism and Saudi Arabia et. al. with the same frequency and ferocity you attack Zionism and Israel.

To be sure, there are reasons to be skeptical of all - what I'm looking for is proportionality. Because for every bad thing Israel or Israeli supporters do, you can be sure Saudi Arabia and Islamic fundamentalists are up to as bad or worse.

If I have a problem with Wahhabism/Salafism and other forms of Islamic extremism - as I assure you I do - that makes me "racist" according to the PC Multicultural Left. But when those same people just go on about Israel all the time "Israel, Israel, Israel" all the time, as if it's the worst thing in the Middle East, if not the whole world, to my mind it raises serious questions.

SeanW

Bannashide wrote:

Perhaps Wikipedia's anonymous contributors whose agenda is unknown are a much more reliable source...or maybe not.

So, from one friends' experience you know more about Anti Semitism than the Simon Weisenthal Centre ...

robindch wrote: »

Your thinking is garbled here and a full reply to these claims would take more time than I have available just now. I would recommend, however, that you grab a copy of the following book which discusses at some length, broadly, what you refer to as the "multicultural left", and certainly more accurately than fringe right-wingers, conspiracy theorists, Dana and Alive!

http://www.amazon.co.uk/War-Childrens-Minds-Stephen-Law/dp/0415427681

Thanks for that link robin, but from what I can tell from the reviews of the book, it seems to state that a liberal mindset (especially in the education of children) should EXCLUDE moral/cultural relativism. I.E. that there can - and should - still be absolutes of right and wrong that apply to all.

The problem is that from what I can see, an "anything goes" mentality of moral relativism is the mindset behind some of the positions of ... certain regular posters ... here.

Bannasidhe

SeanW wrote: »

So, from one friends' experience you know more about Anti Semitism than the Simon Weisenthal Centre ...

No- from having lived in many countries around the world not only among minorities but being in the minority myself -including in the country of which I am a citizen I know more about discrimination than you having experienced it first hand.

All I see from you is anti-Islamic rhetoric and whataboutery.

SeanW

Bannasidhe wrote: »

All I see from you is anti-Islamic rhetoric and whataboutery.

I'm anti Islamic EXTREMISM.

I have no problem with people who just happen to pray 5 times a day.

I DO have a problem with Wahabbism, Salafism and other forms of Islamic insanity. Including pretty much everything to do with Saudi Arabia, for reasons that should be obvious.

Bannasidhe

SeanW wrote: »

I'm anti Islamic EXTREMISM.

I have no problem with people who just happen to pray 5 times a day.

I DO have a problem with Wahabbism, Salafism and other forms of Islamic insanity.

An agenda I have seen you push in many a thread now regardless of the actual topic.

This thread is not about Islam in any form - extremist or moderate. It is about whether Israel as a specifically 'Jewish' country can also be considered democratic.

If you wish to start a thread about whether Saudi Arabia is democratic (it isn't and doesn't claim to be) then work away, but please stop using this one to soapbox.

recedite

biko wrote: »

However, they need this buffer land to have ample warning from Hamas rockets, planes and armies that have attacked twice since the state was formed. And probably will attack again.

I can see the desirability of controlling buffer land, when surrounded by aggressive neighbours as Israel is. But when they build settlements in the buffer zone it defeats the purpose of the buffer...unless the real purpose is to gradually expand the Jewish State itself.

Nodin

SeanW wrote: »

Yes, they're clever enough to fly low on the radar, get their mosques built and then start preaching that women are deficient, Jews apostates and homosexuals should be killed, native law should be resisted etc..

So its a conspiracy, is it?

SeanW wrote: »

Go ahead: You do realise that there are only 13 million Jews in the world, total?.

And that somehow makes their extremists ok?

SeanW wrote: »

I don't know how radical your "radical rabbis" are, ........

Of course not. Nor do you seem too knowledgable of extremist hindus, christians or other sects. Its just muslims, muslims, muslims.........

SeanW wrote: »

Perhaps, perhaps not. I would take you more seriously though if you bashed Wahhabism/Salafism and Saudi Arabia et. al. with the same frequency and ferocity you attack Zionism and Israel.........

What are you trying to imply here?

Lingua Franca

Nodin wrote: »

And that somehow makes their extremists ok?

I wonder how many Scientologists there are, and why you don't see anyone leaping to their defence when they're bashed on internet forums.

Lucy and Harry

Not all Jews follow the same religion many are Atheists and Christians.Arab Israelis have the right to vote in Israel.It is a Democracy.