'Jewish and Democratic'

recedite

Bannasidhe wrote: »

http://www.scribd.com/doc/116658353/Questions-and-Answers-Israeli-Elections-Arab-Parliamentarians-2012

Interesting document. Its strange that they can have a law to ban any political party which "opposes a jewish demographic majority" but good to see that since 2003, every time the Israeli Central Elections Committee have prevented an Arab party from running in the elections, the Israel Supreme Court has overturned that ban.

Banbh

Thanks for that research Bannasidhe. I think we can now safely conclude- after seven pages - that the term 'Jewish and democratic state' is a contradiction in terms.

Peregrinus

Banbh wrote: »

Thanks for that research Bannasidhe. I think we can now safely conclude- after seven pages - that the term 'Jewish and democratic state' is a contradiction in terms.

Nonsense, and verging on antisemitic nonsense. At most we can conclude that Israel is not both Jewish and democratic - though I think that would have to be a heavily qualified conclusion - but nobody has even come close to showing that there's any inherent contradiction between being Jewish and being democratic.

recedite

Democracy is just majority rule. It says nothing about how the minority are to be treated. In EU countries they are usually treated well, In Israel's case, they are treated badly.
Some day secular "jews" and "arabs" may get together, ditch the idea of a jewish state, and make a fine country there. Hundreds of years ago they had one of the most prosperous and multicultural places on earth.

Banbh

Peregrinus: nobody has even come close to showing that there's any inherent contradiction between being Jewish and being democratic.

Nobody ever suggested there was.
We were however talking about a country that makes that claim which, as we have seen in these posts, is clearly a false claim, as being a Jewish or Moslem or Buddhist state, denies full citizenship to those of another belief or none.
And the suggestion of antisemitism - apart from being offensive - is the last refuge in defence of the indefensible.

Peregrinus

The OP - your OP - puts the question this way:

"But can a state be both Jewish and democratic?"

Not "just how democratic is Israel anyway?" The question is very clearly phrased in general terms to raise the general issue of ethnic identity, democracy and the possible tensions between them. Indeed, you underline this by pointing out that the question could - with minimal adjustment - apply equally to, e.g. Iran.

And your conclusion, in post #93, is that "the term 'Jewish and democratic state' is a contradiction in terms". Again, no language to limit this to Israel.

Most of the intervening discussion has been about Israel, of course, but when you ask a general question about Jewishness, and then generalise from the discussion of Israel to draw a conclusion about Jewishness, you're treading on dangerous ground. Coupled with the fact that you're alleging that Israel is "not democratic" (as opposed to, say, not as democratic as it should be) and, though I'm sure it's not your intention, your position could very easily look like antisemitism. Your broad general conclusion is simply not warranted, and drawing unwarranted broad general negative conclusions about Judaism - well, it evokes some very unhappy parallels.

Banbh

You do know that Israel is the only state that claims to be both Jewish and democratic? But if it will help entertain you, I will now say that all states that claim to be both Jewish and democratic fall short in the democracy stakes.

Peregrinus

Banbh wrote: »

You do know that Israel is the only state that claims to be both Jewish and democratic? But if it will help entertain you, I will now say that all states that claim to be both Jewish and democratic fall short in the democracy stakes.

But that's my point. You can't draw general conclusions from a single instance.

After all, Iran is the only state in the world which claims to be both Iranian and democratic. Does that mean that a truly democratic Iranian state is a contradiction in terms? On the same reasoning, is a Russian democracy a contradiction in terms? If you're not generalising from these examples, why are your generalising about Jewishness?

Lingua Franca

Perhaps because Iran and Russia are countries are Jewishness is a religion? Just a thought.

Anyway, this was just sent to me by an Israeli friend. http://972mag.com/a-truly-jewish-democracy-on-the-ideology-of-likuds-moshe-feiglin/62170/

Is "democracy for Jews only" truly a democracy?

recedite

Banbh wrote: »

being a Jewish or Moslem or Buddhist state, denies full citizenship to those of another belief or none.

True, but any of those can still be a democracy, so long as they maintain a majority who want a single State religion.

hyperborean

Banbh wrote: »

Thanks for that research Bannasidhe. I think we can now safely conclude- after seven pages - that the term 'Jewish and democratic state' is a contradiction in terms.

This^

Peregrinus

Lingua Franca wrote: »

Perhaps because Iran and Russia are countries are Jewishness is a religion? Just a thought.

Iranian and Russian are first and foremost nationalities or ethnicities - they describe a people, culture, language, etc. They are also states because of the widely-held view that it's appropriate for a people united by culture, language, history, etc to have their own state.

And Judaism is also a nation/ethnicity. The fact that religion is one of the cultural markers associated with the nation/ethnicity is interesting, but I think not something of fundamental importance. What's more unusual about the Jews is that they are a people who for centuries have mostly lived outside their historic national territory, as a minority in other countries. This means that the reestablishment of a Jewish state in Palestine inevitably smacks of colonialism; notwithstanding the historic connection between the Jewish people and the territory, most Jews now in Israel are recent arrivals, or the descendants of recent arrivals, displacing the people who have been there continually.

So perhaps the questions is better phrased, can a country be both colonial and democratic? And the answer, plainly, is "yes", at least in time. Look at the US. Look at Australia. Look at Canada.

Lingua Franca

Peregrinus wrote: »

Iranian and Russian are first and foremost nationalities or ethnicities - they describe a people, culture, language, etc. They are also states because of the widely-held view that it's appropriate for a people united by culture, language, history, etc to have their own state.

You missed out "geography".

And Judaism is also a nation

Ahahahahahaha. I'm just gonna leave it there, no point arguing with someone who thinks that Judaism is a nation and that colonisation via displacement and genocide is democratic.

Peregrinus

Lingua Franca wrote: »

Ahahahahahaha. I'm just gonna leave it there, no point arguing with someone who thinks that Judaism is a nation and that colonisation via displacement and genocide is democratic.

You're probably wise to leave it there. If you've managed to read "colonisation via displacement and genocide is democratic" into anything I wrote, you're unlikely to benefit very much from participation in a discussion of this kind.

robindch

Not sure whether this should go into the Funny Side, Hazards or here:

The Israeli Embassy in Dublin has a facebook page. Yesterday, some Embassy staffer said that if Mary and Jesus were alive today they would "probably end up being lynched in Bethlehem by hostile Palestinians".

Today, the Embassy apologized while the Irish Department of Foreign Affairs pursed its lips:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/1217/breaking53.html

Irish Times wrote:

The Israeli embassy in Dublin has apologised for a post on its Facebook page which said if Mary and Jesus were alive today they would "probably end up being lynched in Bethlehem by hostile Palestinians".

The post, which was made on the Israel in Ireland Facebook page at about lunchtime today, showed a picture of Mary and Jesus. It was accompanied by the comment:

"A thought for Christmas...If Jesus and mother Mary were alive today, they would, as Jews without security, probably end up being lynched in Bethlehem by hostile Palestinians. By 3 pm it had 20 'likes', though several comments expressed distaste for the post.

Among them was one saying: !Have you no regard for honesty whatsoever? If Jesus & Mary were alive today, they would be protesting against the Israeli occupation of Palestine, along with all the Palestinian Christians currently living in Bethlehem! The post was reported in the major Israeli on-line news site, Haaretz as well as on the Washington Post site today.

When contacted a spokesman for the embassy confirmed the page was an official embassy site. Asked who posted to it he said: "Different members of staff at the embassy post to it." He then asked if The Irish Times was doing a piece on it and was told it was a possibility. The post was removed about half an hour later and replaced with a statement.

"To whom it may concern: An image of Jesus and Mary with a derogatory comment about Palestinians was posted without the consent of the administrator of the Facebook page. We have removed the post in question immediately.Apologies to anyone who may have been offended. Merry Christmas!"

A spokeswoman for the Ireland Palestine Solidarity Campaign described the original post as "outrageous and extremely cynical, but not surprising". "The fact that it was published on a site representing the Israeli state is particularly appalling. It is indicative of the racism that underpins the whole Zionist project."

The Department of Foreign Affairs declined to comment.

Lingua Franca

It turns out that there's a forced sterlisation programme for Ethopian Jewish women too.

http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-EdContributors/Article.aspx?id=295701
http://www.timesofisrael.com/ethiopian-women-claim-israel-forced-them-to-use-birth-control-before-letting-them-immigrate/

Dades

This thread is in danger of turning into the "Hazards of Judaism".

It needs to get back on a level above this fairly lively.

brimal

robindch wrote: »

Not sure whether this should go into the Funny Side, Hazards or here:

The Israeli Embassy in Dublin has a facebook page. Yesterday, some Embassy staffer said that if Mary and Jesus were alive today they would "probably end up being lynched in Bethlehem by hostile Palestinians".

Today, the Embassy apologized while the Irish Department of Foreign Affairs pursed its lips:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/1217/breaking53.html

In fairness, Bethlehem today is an extremely hostile place for Jews. It's well known over here that if you are Jewish, you don't step foot in Bethlehem.

edit; not defending this Facebook post, I think it was rather harebrained of the Embassy

Nodin

brimal wrote: »

In fairness, Bethlehem today is an extremely hostile place for Jews. It's well known over here that if you are Jewish, you don't step foot in Bethlehem.

I'd suggest that you might replace "Jewish" with "Israeli" for the sake of accuracy. Such hostility may have something to do with the vast amount of land seized for settlements - mostly from christian palestinians, apparently.
http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/palestinian-inhibition-in-the-walled-city-of-bethlehem-1.435911

brimal

Nodin wrote: »

I'd suggest that you might replace "Jewish" with "Israeli" for the sake of accuracy. Such hostility may have something to do with the vast amount of land seized for settlements - mostly from christian palestinians, apparently.
http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/palestinian-inhibition-in-the-walled-city-of-bethlehem-1.435911

No, I specifically said Jewish. Israeli, American, Irish - it doesn't matter. Bethlehem is a hostile place for Jews.

Whether they have good reason to or not is another debate.

Nodin

brimal wrote: »

No, I specifically said Jewish. Israeli, American, Irish - it doesn't matter. Bethlehem is a hostile place for Jews.

Whether they have good reason to or not is another debate.

....theres always a few who - wrongly - target all that are nominally of one faith.

recedite

I know someone who travelled to Bethlehem as part of a christian tourist group around this time of year, but a few years ago. They were quite disgusted by the way the town was almost under a kind of military lockdown, and the general air of oppression experienced by locals there.

I think the dismal state the town has been reduced to is something of an embarrassment to the Israeli authorities. Considering the importance of maintaining support for Israel from the christian fundies in the USA, it's not surprising that Israeli embassies would seek to avoid any and all publicity involving the place.

recedite

brimal wrote: »

No, I specifically said Jewish. Israeli, American, Irish - it doesn't matter. Bethlehem is a hostile place for Jews.
Whether they have good reason to or not is another debate.

A debate worth having?
On a philosophical note, is there ever a situation when it is justifiable to dislike somebody purely because of their religion?

Lets say, for example, the KKK had developed into a full religion, then I think it would be acceptable for a black person to dislike anyone attached to that religion. Simply because the religion perpetuates human rights abuses against the black person. You would not be in that religion unless you subscribed to the prejudices.

Now look at Bethlehem. Olive groves owned by locals are seized by the self described "Jewish State". The land is built on, and the housing allocated to foreigners whose only qualification to take that land is that they must be jewish. It is estimated that locals only control about 13% of the land they had in 1967. The immigrants can come from any country in the world, but they must be jews. As soon as the population in the new settlements exceeds the population in the old town, the next logical step will be for Bethlehem to be annexed into the Jewish State by a democratic majority vote.
When a resident of Bethlehem, whether muslim or christian, sees a foreign person seizing ownership of his olive grove, is he not entitled to dislike that person?
When the Palestinian identifies someone walking down the street, in that particular area, as a jew, is it perhaps understandable that he will jump to the conclusion that the jew is an enemy?

Nodin

...while it would be understandable if he did so, he'd still be wrong, as their many Jews who oppose that activity. Blaming all Jews also helps Israel try to claim its representative of Judaism, which is as far from the truth as its possible to be.

SeanW

I do not defend the siezure of land by Israel, per se, but its important to note that this is not happening in isolation.

Jewish emigration from Europe into Israel, and arguably into sympathy for Zionism, has been constant since the founding of the Jewish state.

Those Jews in Europe that survived anti Semitic purges and other abuse, then the Holocaust are still being driven out of Europe. This time, Anti Semitism has been on the increase throughout Europe in line with the increase in the Islamic population (thank you, lefty-multiculturalists for that )

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/behind-high-walls-france-s-jews-on-high-alert.premium-1.484565

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Semitism#Europe

It's particularly bad in Malmo, Sweden and Toulouse, France, where Jewish schools and synagogues have to be built like maximum security prisons and protected by police or private guards. Years of Islamic immigration, coupled with Saudi and other extremist education, means Anti Semitism is on the rise again in Europe and may never abate.

Not that Europe really needed the help of Muslim nutcases to be anti Semitic. I still vividly remember my 3rd class teacher (native Irish Cathloic teacher in Catholic school) "teaching" her class that "everyone hates Jews." Fortunately my parents knew the difference between right and wrong so when I (I was very immature and impressionable at that age) came home spouting this garbage, my mother quickly set me straight on that.

Given that anti Semitism is so heavily ingrained in the European psyche, I find it no surprise that some people spend all their time bashing Jews ... eh ... "Israel"

Banbh

Given that anti Semitism is so heavily ingrained in the European psyche, I find it no surprise that some people spend all their time bashing Jews ... eh ... "Israel"

Much as apologists for Israel want to hide the crimes of that state my claiming that their opponents are anti-semitic, it just doesn't wash. We've been over this ground too often and even a quick read of this thread will show that it's the ethnic cleansing, land seizures and brutality that offend people.

SeanW

Banbh wrote: »

Much as apologists for Israel want to hide the crimes of that state my claiming that their opponents are anti-semitic, it just doesn't wash. We've been over this ground too often and even a quick read of this thread will show that it's the ethnic cleansing, land seizures and brutality that offend people.

I do not believe the Israel should be immune to criticism and I could accept your explanation if the anti-Israeli left were consistent.

But you're not - from what I can tell there's a certain view, here on Boards and elsewhere, that Israel is the only problem worth discussing.

In Saudi Arabia for example, they execute people for witchcraft, in addition to homosexuality, apostasy, blashphemy and fornication. In addition, the Saudis are actively spreading their barbaric "values" and I use that term lightly, here in Europe. Many Muslim countries are similar and anti Semitism absolutely rampant in Islamic culture. Yet this never gets discussed by the PC multicultural left, ONLY Israel.

In fact, when I highlighted the issue in the Politics forum (ya'know, Saudis running schools in the UK teaching that homosexuals should be killed, Jews are cursed by God, look like mokeys and pigs, are out to take over the world) the thread was quickly derailed by multi-culti lefties, the general impression I got from ye was

Meh, I'd rather be bashing Israel

Despite that by any rational analysis most Middle Eastern Islamic states are 100 times more of a s***hole with human rights records that are not only worse than Israels, but appalingly so, only Israel gets bashed constantly on this board and especially on Politics.

I do not believe that the European hatred of Jews and the same over-emphasis on Israel are co-incidental.

Banbh

We've had this argument already in this thread. You know the one - Saudi Arabia or somewhere is worse than Israel therefore Israel is grand. Somewhere else being worse than Israel doesn't exonerate Israel for its crimes against humanity.
But lets discuss Saudi Arabia - another nasty confessional state.
Perhaps a new thread?

brimal

Banbh wrote: »

We've had this argument already in this thread. You know the one - Saudi Arabia or somewhere is worse than Israel therefore Israel is grand. Somewhere else being worse than Israel doesn't exonerate Israel for its crimes against humanity.
But lets discuss Saudi Arabia - another nasty confessional state.
Perhaps a new thread?

Completely missing the point of the post. And I never saw the user say what Israel does is grand?

Israel gets a disproportionate amount of attention/condemnation/abuse when there is arguably more worse goings-on in the world.

Time and time again I see anti-Israel folk agree with this but they can never give a credible reason as to why this is the case.

Lingua Franca

SeanW wrote: »

Those Jews in Europe that survived anti Semitic purges and other abuse, then the Holocaust are still being driven out of Europe. This time, Anti Semitism has been on the increase throughout Europe in line with the increase in the Islamic population (thank you, lefty-multiculturalists for that )

Huh? Are you blaming "lefty-multiculturalists" for antisemitism, or the increase in the Islamic population or both?