The elephant in the room thread.

Testacalda

corktina wrote: »

I imagine the Gards and the Courts would have different opinions on whether the registration number is of no matter

I'd say your right there, no doubt about that, but it is not a concern of the insurance company in terms of providing valid cover, as long as the policy holder has given the correct details about their actual car, the insurance will be valid. As I said I have queried this with insurance company and had it confirmed.

Its hard to get facts, but everyone had their own opinions and views, but its the facts that matter, that's why I queried it

corktina

I think if a Gard stands up and says "Judge, I have charged this driver with driving without insurance because the details in his policy do not match those of the car which should be bearing the number xxDxxxx" then the Judge will agree that the Insurance is not valid.

The Insurance Company will say" nothing to do with us, we covered him in good faith based on the details he gave us"

You see the guy has NOT given the correct details, he has lied about the id of the car.

mountai

Testacalda wrote: »

I'd say your right there, no doubt about that, but it is not a concern of the insurance company in terms of providing valid cover, as long as the policy holder has given the correct details about their actual car, the insurance will be valid. As I said I have queried this with insurance company and had it confirmed.

Its hard to get facts, but everyone had their own opinions and views, but its the facts that matter, that's why I queried it

So its obvious, that the Ins Cos , by ignoring the Legal Status of these vehicles are encouraging criminal activities. Fair comment????

delthedriver

All as clear as mud!

When there is a serious accident it will be interesting to see which way the various parties involved, will actually jump !

delthedriver

mountai wrote: »

In discussions with AXA, I had it confirmed by them , that as long as the details of the Chassis No and the Engine capacity are correct,then the Reg No is of no interest to them .The legal standing of any particular vehicle that is on the road, does not dictate that they will refuse cover. They are aware that this practice is widespread among a certain section of the "Classic" owners, so I assume that as long as they profit by ignoring this fraud, they will continue to do so. If anyone wishes to contact Myles O Reilly of AXA , he should confirm this.

Sorry, I am completely lost here? Are the Insurers agreeable to put all this in writing? I can't imagine an Insurance Company turning a blind eye to something illegal? Perhaps I am simply naive. Guys am I missing something here? Can someone clarify the situation perhaps in a few bullet points? Please
Many thanks

mountai

delthedriver wrote: »

Sorry, I am completely lost here? Are the Insurers agreeable to put all this in writing? I can't imagine an Insurance Company turning a blind eye to something illegal? Perhaps I am simply naive. Guys am I missing something here? Can someone clarify the situation perhaps in a few bullet points? Please
Many thanks

What do you not understand?. I"ve given you my experience , and I"m sure Testacalda is not spoofing either. Contact Myles , see what he says.

delthedriver

mountai wrote: »

What do you not understand?. I"ve given you my experience , and I"m sure Testacalda is not spoofing either. Contact Myles , see what he says.

They are aware that this practice is widespread among a certain section of the "Classic" owners, so I assume that as long as they profit by ignoring this fraud, they will continue to do so.

If this is fraud as suggested by you, I don't understand why any Insurance Company would wish to be part of it.

So its obvious, that the Ins Cos , by ignoring the Legal Status of these vehicles are encouraging criminal activities.

Bizzare!

I don't think Insurance Companies are in the business of encouraging criminal activities, as suggested by you.

Perhaps you should contact the Insurance Company and clarify. Alternatively you may wish to raise allegations of fraud and criminal activities with the Garda Fraud Squad.

corktina

mountai wrote: »

What do you not understand?. I"ve given you my experience , and I"m sure Testacalda is not spoofing either. Contact Myles , see what he says.

no doubt the Insurance Company would stand over it, but it still doesn't mean that the Gards or Courts would accept that the car is properly insured. I would say you would have no leg to stand on in court if it came to that,

macplaxton

Under the insurance principle of "good faith", declaring the actual material facts of the vehicle having a dodgy ID wouldn't be an issue, should they choose to accept the risk. It's another matter altogether if it wasn't declared to the insurers and they found out something was amiss.

Given the apparent value difference between a late import, against an original Irish car, I would have thought the insurers would be looking for any old excuse to refuse/reduce pay out in the event of a total loss on a vehicle that was found to have a questionable ID.

In practice though, I would have thought it unless it was a big claim or something wrong that stood out a mile, they wouldn't bother/even notice.

swarlb

mountai wrote: »

What do you not understand?. I"ve given you my experience , and I"m sure Testacalda is not spoofing either. Contact Myles , see what he says.

So, if I told AXA that I had a Ferrari 250GTO, and backed it up with paperwork, where in actual fact I had a plastic bodied fake with a Jag V12, and then it caught fire and was reduced to a pulp of molten goo....would they pay me a few squillion in a claim ??
Would this Myles person put his job on the line, and insure a fake ?

mountai

swarlb wrote: »

So, if I told AXA that I had a Ferrari 250GTO, and backed it up with paperwork, where in actual fact I had a plastic bodied fake with a Jag V12, and then it caught fire and was reduced to a pulp of molten goo....would they pay me a few squillion in a claim ??
Would this Myles person put his job on the line, and insure a fake ?

I would imagine there would be no problem in getting insurance from AXA. As that Co has a special scheme set up for the Irish kit car club. They insure fakes all the time. I would imagine however, that the premium cost would reflect the stated value of the car, and should a claim be made in such circumstances , a forensic examination would be carried out before any settlement.

carchaeologist

I thought that insurance policies have as part of the policy wording ' Vehicle bearing the registration number/index mark 123ABC'?

I know you can insure cars on the chassis number as a temporary job, but I would have said the registration number is an intrinsic part of the process for a permanent policy.

mountai

carchaeologist wrote: »

I thought that insurance policies have as part of the policy wording ' Vehicle bearing the registration number/index mark 123ABC'?

I know you can insure cars on the chassis number as a temporary job, but I would have said the registration number is an intrinsic part of the process for a permanent policy.

You seem to be missing the point . To take out one of these policies , if you supply the Ins Co with a Reg No from an existing car that is registered, they will accept this. You must however, supply the Chassis No and engine details from the actual car that is going to be used on the road. By supplying the Reg No , you are in fact complying with the "Vehicle bearing reg number/index mark". You would not be telling any lies to the insurance co. The fact that you are breaking the law does not concern the Ins Co..Just ask Myles.

corktina

you are the one missing the point. This is an illegal act and I doubt when push comes to shove that the Insurance Co will stand over it. They aren't stupid, they want your money but I guarantee that there will be a clause in there stating that the onus is on you to provide all the relevant information. If you went to them and said "I have a ringed car using the documentation from another car, will you please insure me on that basis" they will say an emphatic NO

mountai

corktina wrote: »

you are the one missing the point. This is an illegal act and I doubt when push comes to shove that the Insurance Co will stand over it. They aren't stupid, they want your money but I guarantee that there will be a clause in there stating that the onus is on you to provide all the relevant information. If you went to them and said "I have a ringed car using the documentation from another car, will you please insure me on that basis" they will say an emphatic NO

They will and they do. Just ask Myles

corktina

I seriously doubt Myles would do that , especially not since his name and Axa's name has been dragged all over this thread. They will give you a policy no doubt, but non-disclosure is a likely ground for that policy to be void , and that would be entirely the problem of the policyholder. I am quite sure they would not aid and abet anyone in a criminal act knowingly.

mountai

Your last sentence is where the fine line is drawn. I would concur that if you tell them that you are engaged in an illegal act , then obviously they would decline to do business. My point is, -- They are aware that many of the vehicles are "Cloned" , but because there is no onus on them to ensure that the vehicle is "Legally Registered", then its business as usual. No Ins Co require you to provide a copy of the Reg Documents to prove that the car is legit. I believe that its only a matter of time that it will be brought into law, these docs must be produced prior to taking out a policy.Perhaps Testacalda would like to give more details on his experience of these matters.

carchaeologist

Interesting arguments put out here.
We need someone in here who knows there onions regarding the fine detail of insurance policies!

Frankie Lee

I noticed yesterday a Discovery that was driving around locally with ZV plates has changed to 01 again. I wonder why they changed.

corktina

Frankie Lee wrote: »

I noticed yesterday a Discovery that was driving around locally with ZV plates has changed to 01 again. I wonder why they changed.

oh that's easy. The 1970's chassis obviously became beyond further repair and it was replaced with the chassis off a 2001 vehicle. SImples:D

Sam Russell

Why do people change the identity of a car? (that has not been stolen)

1. To avoid VRT/motor tax by making it appear as over 30 years old?

2. To make it appear as an original Irish car when it is an import?

3. To make it appear as a different model than it actually is?

4. UK car that has been made to appear to be pre-1972 and so avoid motor tax there?

If it is number 4, and it has subsequently been imported, having been registered as it is (cloned) then that is a matter for the UK authorities, I would have thought.

If it is number 2 or number 3, that is a fraud carried out on the subsequent purchaser, assuming it is done for pecuniary advantage.

If it is number 1, it is a revenue offence. Heaven help those who are caught when they find out there is money to be made from them. It is similar to having a 3l engine, but it only 1.2l on the log book.

Maybe there are other reasons, but as long as the ZV system exists, then there will be clones (and clowns who do it).

Capri

Sam Russell wrote: »

Why do people change the identity of a car? (that has not been stolen)

1. To avoid VRT/motor tax by making it appear as over 30 years old?

2. To make it appear as an original Irish car when it is an import?

3. To make it appear as a different model than it actually is?

4. UK car that has been made to appear to be pre-1972 and so avoid motor tax there?

If it is number 4, and it has subsequently been imported, having been registered as it is (cloned) then that is a matter for the UK authorities, I would have thought.

If it is number 2 or number 3, that is a fraud carried out on the subsequent purchaser, assuming it is done for pecuniary advantage.

If it is number 1, it is a revenue offence. Heaven help those who are caught when they find out there is money to be made from them. It is similar to having a 3l engine, but it only 1.2l on the log book.

Maybe there are other reasons, but as long as the ZV system exists, then there will be clones (and clowns who do it).

Happens all over the world - inequitable motor tax systems breed this sort of thing :mad: . There are LOTS of countries where none of this goes on , the govt. gets revenue and the motor enthuiasts are happy

Here's a donor engine and trim for an old XJ6 :rolleyes: http://cars.donedeal.ie/cars-for-sale/jaguarxj6-executive-non-runner/5421474

kasper

guy here from mayo doing a yard (drawer)clearancehttp://cars.donedeal.ie/vintagecars-for-sale/old-irish-cars-all-with-original/5694154

Old Irish Cars, all with original Irish Log Books, All in poor condition, Suitiable for parts,
72 MK1 Escort, 76 to 80 Mk2 Escorts, 74 to 81 Cortina, 81 Starlet, 76 to 82 Carina, 79 Toyota Crown, 78 volvo 244, 81 Volvo 345, 88 Lada, 77 to 87 Opel Kadette, 77 Hillman Hunter, 77 to 80 Reno 5, 82 Fiat 127, 86 Peug 305, 81 Citroen GSA, 80 Vaxhall Carlton, 80 to 92 Daihatsu Charade, 72 to 77 Beetle, 81 Jetta Dsl, 79 Fiesta, 85 Orion, 76 to 82 Corolla, 83 to 87 Sierra, 82 Opel Ascona, Datsun Bluebird, Stanza, Vannett, 85 Mitsubishi Galant, Lancer

macplaxton

Frankie Lee wrote: »

I noticed yesterday a Discovery that was driving around locally with ZV plates has changed to 01 again. I wonder why they changed.

Because the owner is a hoarder like myself and has more than one car of the same make/model in the same colour?

corktina

kasper wrote: »

guy here from mayo doing a yard (drawer)clearancehttp://cars.donedeal.ie/vintagecars-for-sale/old-irish-cars-all-with-original/5694154

Old Irish Cars, all with original Irish Log Books, All in poor condition, Suitiable for parts,
72 MK1 Escort, 76 to 80 Mk2 Escorts, 74 to 81 Cortina, 81 Starlet, 76 to 82 Carina, 79 Toyota Crown, 78 volvo 244, 81 Volvo 345, 88 Lada, 77 to 87 Opel Kadette, 77 Hillman Hunter, 77 to 80 Reno 5, 82 Fiat 127, 86 Peug 305, 81 Citroen GSA, 80 Vaxhall Carlton, 80 to 92 Daihatsu Charade, 72 to 77 Beetle, 81 Jetta Dsl, 79 Fiesta, 85 Orion, 76 to 82 Corolla, 83 to 87 Sierra, 82 Opel Ascona, Datsun Bluebird, Stanza, Vannett, 85 Mitsubishi Galant, Lancer

drawer ...lol :-)

delthedriver

corktina wrote: »

you are the one missing the point. This is an illegal act and I doubt when push comes to shove that the Insurance Co will stand over it. They aren't stupid, they want your money but I guarantee that there will be a clause in there stating that the onus is on you to provide all the relevant information. If you went to them and said "I have a ringed car using the documentation from another car, will you please insure me on that basis" they will say an emphatic NO

Well said!

Respectfully, I think there are too many clones or even clowns on this thread!

Do-more

When I was asking about the penalties I hadn't in mind the insurance aspect, perhaps we can put that aside for a moment as we don't appear to be reaching consensus on that!

What I was more thinking of is if the Revenue and Gardai were to stop a suspect vehicle at one of their joint check points what would the penalties be?

The Revenue matter of evading VRT would be a fine, how much?, (you can evade millions in income tax and VAT and not get locked up, just pay back tax and a fine so I assume this would be similar). but if charged by the Gardai and subsequently prosecuted for driving a vehicle with false registration plates what's the penalty?

Sam Russell

Do-more wrote: »

The Revenue matter of evading VRT would be a fine, how much?, (you can evade millions in income tax and VAT and not get locked up, just pay back tax and a fine so I assume this would be similar). but if charged by the Gardai and subsequently prosecuted for driving a vehicle with false registration plates what's the penalty?

I would imagine the revenue would seize the car and crush it. Penalties to follow.

A simillar thing occurs with vehicles that are 'converted' to commercial (this is done (used to be done) with BMW X5s) and subsequently the car (van) is discovered to be converted back again. This was all the rage a few years back but revenue are either not bothering or are satisfied they have stamped it out. I would think the gards would do the same as the revenue. Would need a very savvy gard to spot a ringer. Also compare what happens to green diesel users. These are all revenue offences.

oceanman

Do-more wrote: »

but if charged by the Gardai and subsequently prosecuted for driving a vehicle with false registration plates what's the penalty?

it would depend a lot on the judge, but I couldn't see it being more than a couple of hundred euro..

Capri

Do-more wrote: »

When I was asking about the penalties I hadn't in mind the insurance aspect, perhaps we can put that aside for a moment as we don't appear to be reaching consensus on that!

What I was more thinking of is if the Revenue and Gardai were to stop a suspect vehicle at one of their joint check points what would the penalties be?

The Revenue matter of evading VRT would be a fine, how much?, (you can evade millions in income tax and VAT and not get locked up, just pay back tax and a fine so I assume this would be similar). but if charged by the Gardai and subsequently prosecuted for driving a vehicle with false registration plates what's the penalty?

Whats the situation in Sweden - surely Nordic logic prevails

Petrol v's 'Daysel' , Classics v's youngtimers v's ordinary cars .

What cultural differences have you noticed - are people happy paying high tax or do they try to avoid it ?
Do people prefer petrol to diesel ?
Is there a fair road tax system regarding all ages of vehicles?
What is insurance like ?