The elephant in the room thread.

carchaeologist

Ill kick this off with the rotten cars for sale today.
http://cars.donedeal.ie/for-sale/vintagecars/4244934

http://cars.donedeal.ie/for-sale/vintagecars/4244125

http://cars.donedeal.ie/for-sale/vintagecars/4243868

This guy will even dump the shell for you after you buy it, nice of him.
http://cars.donedeal.ie/for-sale/vintagecars/4240107

Capri

carchaeologist wrote: »

Ill kick this off with the rotten cars for sale today.
http://cars.donedeal.ie/for-sale/vintagecars/4244934

http://cars.donedeal.ie/for-sale/vintagecars/4244125

http://cars.donedeal.ie/for-sale/vintagecars/4243868

This guy will even dump the shell for you after you buy it, nice of him.
http://cars.donedeal.ie/for-sale/vintagecars/4240107

We now know the price and value of things

If the govt copped on and made life easier then things might be different :cool:

galwaytt

Capri wrote: »

We now know the price and value of things

If the govt copped on and made life easier then things might be different :cool:

And if they read this thread they might take umbrage at the whole scene and fubar it for everyone......

carchaeologist

galwaytt wrote: »

And if they read this thread they might take umbrage at the whole scene and fubar it for everyone......

They have it pretty ****ed up as it is with the 1980 NCT lockdown and the 5 digit ZVs. All this contributes to the problem.

Wonder will the budget make things any worse...

galwaytt

carchaeologist wrote: »

They have it pretty ****ed up as it is with the 1980 NCT lockdown and the 5 digit ZVs. All this contributes to the problem.

Wonder will the budget make things any worse...

Number plates are the least of the issues. €€€ is much more.

corktina

great thread Carchy...an Elephant that needs pointing out....

carchaeologist

galwaytt wrote: »

Number plates are the least of the issues. €€€ is much more.

Indeed, but if number plates didn't matter why have we have the even sillier 131 and 132 series plates on the way next year. One seems to follow the other.

I forgot to mention the idiotic import series plates in my original post.

unfit2006

The VRT on imported vehicles over 30 years old is what ....€200.

An old Irish tax book costs €200, maybe €300 depending on make/model.

So its really much the same cost either way

It appears to me that most guys bringing in an old car from UK would now go the "ringing" route rather than impose one of those ridiculous ZV plates on their classic car.

The plate now certainly does matter. I would never have considered the "ringing" of an imported classic in the past but I would consider it now and only because of the shambles of this whole ZV plate thing.

The loss of revenue to the state on the ringing of 30 year old imports is not/never will be significant in real terms so it's really a matter of preserving some degree of integrity in the Irish classic car scene at the end of the day. That is the thing that bothers me about the practice.

Mr Benevolent

Why does the ZV plate thing matter so much anyway? I've always wondered why some people get sniffy over the issue,. Surely a licence plate is a licence plate?

Dades

unfit2006 wrote: »

The VRT on imported vehicles over 30 years old is what ....€200.

An old Irish tax book costs €200, maybe €300 depending on make/model.

So its really much the same cost either way.

You're assuming the car is actually pre-1980. There's benefits to be have for having the docs for an earlier model than the one you might actually have, depending on the year.

carchaeologist

Confab wrote: »

Why does the ZV plate thing matter so much anyway? I've always wondered why some people get sniffy over the issue,. Surely a licence plate is a licence plate?

Indeed, but the illegal practice of cloning cars is the big issue. And like it or not most people do like a nice looking plate on their classic.

corktina

carchaeologist wrote: »

Indeed, but the illegal practice of cloning cars is the big issue. And like it or not most people do like a nice looking plate on their classic.

indeed and the State could be earning from this rather than some chancer with an old book. Personal plates are big business elsewhere.

mountai

Well its a great relief to know that all cloned vehicles have valid insurance. Even though false information has been given when taking out these policies. I bet there will be a "Feeding Frenzie" among a certain group , to get their hands on these Log Books.!!!!

corktina

i don't believe thats true. Never been tested.

I'm sure if the Insurance Company proved the vehicle stolen/ crashed was not in fact the one insured, then they would not have to pay out, or if they did, they would come after the owner for the money.

mountai

corktina wrote: »

i don't believe thats true. Never been tested.

I'm sure if the Insurance Company proved the vehicle stolen/ crashed was not in fact the one insured, then they would not have to pay out, or if they did, they would come after the owner for the money.

I have been assured it is true.If you click on the link (sorry I cant do Links) in the" Cloned Car" post on this page, follow the discussion , and you will see that many learned Legal People have given this opinion.

superfly35

I was in at an insurance desk for my own insurance, and the lady was on the phone with somebody questioning the validity of the policy as the insured car was not the one the claim was but forward to.

So I have to say, I would think that if the VIN number in the chassis does not correspond to the logbook a discuss might start....

I did your other threat too, but I would not want to be having this discuss at all with an insurance.

corktina

i'm pretty sure that fraud would negate a policy....

corktina

I read the posts...most of them don't say that they are insured, most of them say the opposite. One guy said that a third party would be paid out, but also said that the Insured would be pursued through the courts...as for Learned Posters...well I have no idea of anyones qualifications on there.

carchaeologist

It's a grey area, but an open discussion is no harm.

mountai

corktina wrote: »

I read the posts...most of them don't say that they are insured, most of them say the opposite. One guy said that a third party would be paid out, but also said that the Insured would be pursued through the courts...as for Learned Posters...well I have no idea of anyones qualifications on there.

With respect corktina, anyone who is able to refer to Law,and can quote from Insurance Acts etc is a credible person in My eyes. However I bet not too many of them would know how to change a Timing belt on a Pinto Engine, or set up the Timing on an old BMC one!!!!!!!!!!.
The consensus of opinion seems to be that Third Party Claims MUST be honoured by the Ins Co in the event of a claim.

corktina

well also with respect, I can refer to Law and quote acts to you , in fact I could totally make it up and you wouldn't know the difference....

I have little doubt that an Ins Co would pay out third party claims ex Gratia (and pursue the Insured for the cash ) but that's NOT the same as being insured... it wont cover the Insured for Legal and Medical costs for a start.

superfly35

I would say even if the insurance do pay the claim of the third party, I am sure they will suit to get back there cash and you might lose house and so on the back of it.

So I would say it is the equivalent of driving un-insure really, except you are put your hand in the sand.

But that say I am not a law man.

mountai

corktina wrote: »

well also with respect, I can refer to Law and quote acts to you , in fact I could totally make it up and you wouldn't know the difference....

I have little doubt that an Ins Co would pay out third party claims ex Gratia (and pursue the Insured for the cash ) but that's NOT the same as being insured... it wont cover the Insured for Legal and Medical costs for a start.

I defer to your Knowledge in this matter (And this is NOT BEING SMART)
All that I was ever worried about was the innocent third party. They now are not at the risk I thought they might have been. As for "Legal and Medical" costs for the person who took out the policy giving false information ---- Fcuk Em !!!

superfly35

Well I would say the insurance of the innocent third party will surely with pleasure chase this other guy for you. ;-)

It is the same as when you drive a non-insured car really.

corktina

mountai wrote: »

I defer to your Knowledge in this matter (And this is NOT BEING SMART)
All that I was ever worried about was the innocent third party. They now are not at the risk I thought they might have been. As for "Legal and Medical" costs for the person who took out the policy giving false information ---- Fcuk Em !!!

i read it that you were releaved about Insurance being valid from his own point of view, I apologise if I got the wrong end of the stick. I too am glad that third parties wont suffer from this sort of behaviour.

Casati

Dades wrote: »

You're assuming the car is actually pre-1980. There's benefits to be have for having the docs for an earlier model than the one you might actually have, depending on the year.

I understand why say a log book for a 1980 911 or XJS might be worth a bob to ring a much newer car and avoid the tax and large VRT, but in the case of the cars at the top of this thread I can't see why somebody would take the risk simply to get a an Irish number plate.

In the case of a crash with serious injury/ claim, I can see an assessor finding this out very quickly leaving the driver potentially un-insured. Not worth it just to have a HI plate instead of a ZV or 81 TS plate me thinks?

I always thought that classic car owners were into cars and not simply into the reg on the car!!

w124man

As regards insurance and wrong vehicle details, if you have an accident in a vehicle which isnt what you say it is on your insurance then you are not insured. Simple. If your car is 'cloned' then you have revenue and Garda issues in addition to insurance issues. It isnt worth it.

Capri

Ad....

car starts on turn of the key..drives and stops. Log book is also available.. The chassis is suffering from rust in usual merc places.

Log book is also available If you buy a car, you get the logbook - or is that now a seperate sale ???

corktina

w124man wrote: »

As regards insurance and wrong vehicle details, if you have an accident in a vehicle which isnt what you say it is on your insurance then you are not insured. Simple. If your car is 'cloned' then you have revenue and Garda issues in addition to insurance issues. It isnt worth it.

yep...if I went out in my spare Fiesta which was not insured and crashed it, but rushed home for the plates off my road-legal Fiesta, would my policy be valid? I'd say the Insurance Company would say, "yes your Insurance is valid but NOT on that car" .They'd say the same for a cloned car, so I can't see that you are insured when you drive a classic and use the taxbook and plates off a long dead car.

The car insured is not the one that has injured a third party and therefore they are NOT covered under that policy

bbsrs

Recycling is good , so recycling green log books and old number plates is good too.

bbsrs

corktina wrote: »

i read it that you were releaved about Insurance being valid from his own point of view, I apologise if I got the wrong end of the stick. I too am glad that third parties wont suffer from this sort of behaviour.

I don't condone driving without proper insurance . Just for information , in the case of an uninsured/improperly insured car causing third party damage ,all claims go through MIB . We pay for MIB via our insurance policy's .

Thinkingaboutit

corktina wrote: »

indeed and the State could be earning from this rather than some chancer with an old book. Personal plates are big business elsewhere.

Allowing resale of old plates like in England might have a bad effect on more basic classics with nice plates, although given that pre 87 cars or even cars with the post 87 and pre 91 non EU plate, are rare, it hardly matters. Anyhow I cannot say I would care if my Wolseley had 71-D-XXXX instead of some ZV plate.

corktina

indeed that is the downside of it, you see many classics in the UK with an "S" as the middle letter on the plate, an almost sure sign that the original plate has been robbed for some Beemer or Merc.

MrFoxman360

I have had a few old rusty classics which I broke for parts and then scrapped, I regularly would get calls wondering if I have a tax book for classics, particularly big jags.

In ireland, the taxbook and reg of a vehicle refers to the shell, or a chassis if its seperate from the body.

Whats the legal procedure if you, for instance, replace the chassis on a series Landrover with a brand new galvaised one.

macplaxton

MrFoxman360 wrote: »

Whats the legal procedure if you, for instance, replace the chassis on a series Landrover with a brand new galvaised one.

Re-register it?

hi5

^^ Its not everyday you see that kind of honesty.
Is that a heritage body, those panel gaps dont look great?

carchaeologist

hi5 wrote: »

^^ Its not everyday you see that kind of honesty.
Is that a heritage body, those panel gaps dont look great?

Must be, but the reg suggests it was registered here 'new' in 1989?

Capri

So there's one honest guy willing to pay over the odds for tax - but IMO IF the Revenue had a sliding scale of tax over 15 years, over 30 years THEN they might actually earn money from people who are prepared to pay a 'fair' rate of tax etc. People will say 'ther'll be cheats', so increase the fine for cheats ONCE A FAIR SYSTEM IS IN PLACE ????

Capri

This guy seems to have perfected the chassis swop -
http://cars.donedeal.ie/for-sale/vintagecars/3182133 :rolleyes:

corktina

i thought the first bit of a Landy to rot was the chassis...

Basil Fawlty

Depends on the car and the life its led. Chassis are usually never beyond repair with replacement sections being readily available.

Basil Fawlty

Capri wrote: »

This guy seems to have perfected the chassis swop -
http://cars.donedeal.ie/for-sale/vintagecars/3182133 :rolleyes:

Actually he has, as he is now using Discovery II bodies on the vintage chassis's he imports. The body mounts are the same.

Also its swap not swop.

John Larkin

ciarancapri wrote: »

Actually he has, as he is now using Discovery II bodies on the vintage chassis's he imports. The body mounts are the same.

Also its swap not swop.

The spelling "swop" is the older English form of the word. It is less used nowadays than "swap" but it is not an incorrect spelling.

2cv

Confab wrote: »

Why does the ZV plate thing matter so much anyway? I've always wondered why some people get sniffy over the issue,. Surely a licence plate is a licence plate?

I'm with you on that one. A plate is just that, a plate, with a number on it. Nothing more, nothing less.

corktina

2cv wrote: »

I'm with you on that one. A plate is just that, a plate, with a number on it. Nothing more, nothing less.

it's partly the look of it but mostly (for a sub 30 yr old car) VRT avoidance...which is a crime

2cv

corktina wrote: »

it's partly the look of it but mostly (for a sub 30 yr old car) VRT avoidance...which is a crime

I understand... but i really fail to understand people's problems with ZV plates....

corktina

2cv wrote: »

I understand... but i really fail to understand people's problems with ZV plates....

for me, the problem is row upon row of cars at a show, all with ZV numbers...

2cv

corktina wrote: »

for me, the problem is row upon row of cars at a show, all with ZV numbers...

Maybe you should admire the car and not the reg?

corktina

I've a keen interest in history...I like to learn the why and wherefore of things....if you go to an Irish car show, you learn the history of motoring ...





IN THE UK!

2cv

corktina wrote: »

I've a keen interest in history...I like to learn the why and wherefore of things....if you go to an Irish car show, you learn the history of motoring ...





IN THE UK!

Well in that case maybe we should introduce a system of Apartheid... Have shows for cars on original irish reg and separate shows for imported cars. Maybe make owners of imported cars sit on the back of the bus as well? Unless you have any other suggestions? LOL

And besides, with all the ringing going on, how many of those "original irish cars" are genuinely irish?

2cv

corktina wrote: »

I've a keen interest in history...I like to learn the why and wherefore of things....if you go to an Irish car show, you learn the history of motoring ...





IN THE UK!

Another note... I have three vintage cars, one on ZV (a 1977 car imported in 2007) and two "original irish" cars (one 1975 car imported in 1979 and a 1966 car imported in 1978). How would you view those?