The elephant in the room thread.

mountai

swarlb wrote: »

So, if I told AXA that I had a Ferrari 250GTO, and backed it up with paperwork, where in actual fact I had a plastic bodied fake with a Jag V12, and then it caught fire and was reduced to a pulp of molten goo....would they pay me a few squillion in a claim ??
Would this Myles person put his job on the line, and insure a fake ?

I would imagine there would be no problem in getting insurance from AXA. As that Co has a special scheme set up for the Irish kit car club. They insure fakes all the time. I would imagine however, that the premium cost would reflect the stated value of the car, and should a claim be made in such circumstances , a forensic examination would be carried out before any settlement.

carchaeologist

I thought that insurance policies have as part of the policy wording ' Vehicle bearing the registration number/index mark 123ABC'?

I know you can insure cars on the chassis number as a temporary job, but I would have said the registration number is an intrinsic part of the process for a permanent policy.

mountai

carchaeologist wrote: »

I thought that insurance policies have as part of the policy wording ' Vehicle bearing the registration number/index mark 123ABC'?

I know you can insure cars on the chassis number as a temporary job, but I would have said the registration number is an intrinsic part of the process for a permanent policy.

You seem to be missing the point . To take out one of these policies , if you supply the Ins Co with a Reg No from an existing car that is registered, they will accept this. You must however, supply the Chassis No and engine details from the actual car that is going to be used on the road. By supplying the Reg No , you are in fact complying with the "Vehicle bearing reg number/index mark". You would not be telling any lies to the insurance co. The fact that you are breaking the law does not concern the Ins Co..Just ask Myles.

corktina

you are the one missing the point. This is an illegal act and I doubt when push comes to shove that the Insurance Co will stand over it. They aren't stupid, they want your money but I guarantee that there will be a clause in there stating that the onus is on you to provide all the relevant information. If you went to them and said "I have a ringed car using the documentation from another car, will you please insure me on that basis" they will say an emphatic NO

mountai

corktina wrote: »

you are the one missing the point. This is an illegal act and I doubt when push comes to shove that the Insurance Co will stand over it. They aren't stupid, they want your money but I guarantee that there will be a clause in there stating that the onus is on you to provide all the relevant information. If you went to them and said "I have a ringed car using the documentation from another car, will you please insure me on that basis" they will say an emphatic NO

They will and they do. Just ask Myles

corktina

I seriously doubt Myles would do that , especially not since his name and Axa's name has been dragged all over this thread. They will give you a policy no doubt, but non-disclosure is a likely ground for that policy to be void , and that would be entirely the problem of the policyholder. I am quite sure they would not aid and abet anyone in a criminal act knowingly.

mountai

Your last sentence is where the fine line is drawn. I would concur that if you tell them that you are engaged in an illegal act , then obviously they would decline to do business. My point is, -- They are aware that many of the vehicles are "Cloned" , but because there is no onus on them to ensure that the vehicle is "Legally Registered", then its business as usual. No Ins Co require you to provide a copy of the Reg Documents to prove that the car is legit. I believe that its only a matter of time that it will be brought into law, these docs must be produced prior to taking out a policy.Perhaps Testacalda would like to give more details on his experience of these matters.

carchaeologist

Interesting arguments put out here.
We need someone in here who knows there onions regarding the fine detail of insurance policies!

Frankie Lee

I noticed yesterday a Discovery that was driving around locally with ZV plates has changed to 01 again. I wonder why they changed.

corktina

Frankie Lee wrote: »

I noticed yesterday a Discovery that was driving around locally with ZV plates has changed to 01 again. I wonder why they changed.

oh that's easy. The 1970's chassis obviously became beyond further repair and it was replaced with the chassis off a 2001 vehicle. SImples:D

Sam Russell

Why do people change the identity of a car? (that has not been stolen)

1. To avoid VRT/motor tax by making it appear as over 30 years old?

2. To make it appear as an original Irish car when it is an import?

3. To make it appear as a different model than it actually is?

4. UK car that has been made to appear to be pre-1972 and so avoid motor tax there?

If it is number 4, and it has subsequently been imported, having been registered as it is (cloned) then that is a matter for the UK authorities, I would have thought.

If it is number 2 or number 3, that is a fraud carried out on the subsequent purchaser, assuming it is done for pecuniary advantage.

If it is number 1, it is a revenue offence. Heaven help those who are caught when they find out there is money to be made from them. It is similar to having a 3l engine, but it only 1.2l on the log book.

Maybe there are other reasons, but as long as the ZV system exists, then there will be clones (and clowns who do it).

Capri

Sam Russell wrote: »

Why do people change the identity of a car? (that has not been stolen)

1. To avoid VRT/motor tax by making it appear as over 30 years old?

2. To make it appear as an original Irish car when it is an import?

3. To make it appear as a different model than it actually is?

4. UK car that has been made to appear to be pre-1972 and so avoid motor tax there?

If it is number 4, and it has subsequently been imported, having been registered as it is (cloned) then that is a matter for the UK authorities, I would have thought.

If it is number 2 or number 3, that is a fraud carried out on the subsequent purchaser, assuming it is done for pecuniary advantage.

If it is number 1, it is a revenue offence. Heaven help those who are caught when they find out there is money to be made from them. It is similar to having a 3l engine, but it only 1.2l on the log book.

Maybe there are other reasons, but as long as the ZV system exists, then there will be clones (and clowns who do it).

Happens all over the world - inequitable motor tax systems breed this sort of thing :mad: . There are LOTS of countries where none of this goes on , the govt. gets revenue and the motor enthuiasts are happy

Here's a donor engine and trim for an old XJ6 :rolleyes: http://cars.donedeal.ie/cars-for-sale/jaguarxj6-executive-non-runner/5421474

kasper

guy here from mayo doing a yard (drawer)clearancehttp://cars.donedeal.ie/vintagecars-for-sale/old-irish-cars-all-with-original/5694154

Old Irish Cars, all with original Irish Log Books, All in poor condition, Suitiable for parts,
72 MK1 Escort, 76 to 80 Mk2 Escorts, 74 to 81 Cortina, 81 Starlet, 76 to 82 Carina, 79 Toyota Crown, 78 volvo 244, 81 Volvo 345, 88 Lada, 77 to 87 Opel Kadette, 77 Hillman Hunter, 77 to 80 Reno 5, 82 Fiat 127, 86 Peug 305, 81 Citroen GSA, 80 Vaxhall Carlton, 80 to 92 Daihatsu Charade, 72 to 77 Beetle, 81 Jetta Dsl, 79 Fiesta, 85 Orion, 76 to 82 Corolla, 83 to 87 Sierra, 82 Opel Ascona, Datsun Bluebird, Stanza, Vannett, 85 Mitsubishi Galant, Lancer

macplaxton

Frankie Lee wrote: »

I noticed yesterday a Discovery that was driving around locally with ZV plates has changed to 01 again. I wonder why they changed.

Because the owner is a hoarder like myself and has more than one car of the same make/model in the same colour?

corktina

kasper wrote: »

guy here from mayo doing a yard (drawer)clearancehttp://cars.donedeal.ie/vintagecars-for-sale/old-irish-cars-all-with-original/5694154

Old Irish Cars, all with original Irish Log Books, All in poor condition, Suitiable for parts,
72 MK1 Escort, 76 to 80 Mk2 Escorts, 74 to 81 Cortina, 81 Starlet, 76 to 82 Carina, 79 Toyota Crown, 78 volvo 244, 81 Volvo 345, 88 Lada, 77 to 87 Opel Kadette, 77 Hillman Hunter, 77 to 80 Reno 5, 82 Fiat 127, 86 Peug 305, 81 Citroen GSA, 80 Vaxhall Carlton, 80 to 92 Daihatsu Charade, 72 to 77 Beetle, 81 Jetta Dsl, 79 Fiesta, 85 Orion, 76 to 82 Corolla, 83 to 87 Sierra, 82 Opel Ascona, Datsun Bluebird, Stanza, Vannett, 85 Mitsubishi Galant, Lancer

drawer ...lol :-)

delthedriver

corktina wrote: »

you are the one missing the point. This is an illegal act and I doubt when push comes to shove that the Insurance Co will stand over it. They aren't stupid, they want your money but I guarantee that there will be a clause in there stating that the onus is on you to provide all the relevant information. If you went to them and said "I have a ringed car using the documentation from another car, will you please insure me on that basis" they will say an emphatic NO

Well said!

Respectfully, I think there are too many clones or even clowns on this thread!

Do-more

When I was asking about the penalties I hadn't in mind the insurance aspect, perhaps we can put that aside for a moment as we don't appear to be reaching consensus on that!

What I was more thinking of is if the Revenue and Gardai were to stop a suspect vehicle at one of their joint check points what would the penalties be?

The Revenue matter of evading VRT would be a fine, how much?, (you can evade millions in income tax and VAT and not get locked up, just pay back tax and a fine so I assume this would be similar). but if charged by the Gardai and subsequently prosecuted for driving a vehicle with false registration plates what's the penalty?

Sam Russell

Do-more wrote: »

The Revenue matter of evading VRT would be a fine, how much?, (you can evade millions in income tax and VAT and not get locked up, just pay back tax and a fine so I assume this would be similar). but if charged by the Gardai and subsequently prosecuted for driving a vehicle with false registration plates what's the penalty?

I would imagine the revenue would seize the car and crush it. Penalties to follow.

A simillar thing occurs with vehicles that are 'converted' to commercial (this is done (used to be done) with BMW X5s) and subsequently the car (van) is discovered to be converted back again. This was all the rage a few years back but revenue are either not bothering or are satisfied they have stamped it out. I would think the gards would do the same as the revenue. Would need a very savvy gard to spot a ringer. Also compare what happens to green diesel users. These are all revenue offences.

oceanman

Do-more wrote: »

but if charged by the Gardai and subsequently prosecuted for driving a vehicle with false registration plates what's the penalty?

it would depend a lot on the judge, but I couldn't see it being more than a couple of hundred euro..

Capri

Do-more wrote: »

When I was asking about the penalties I hadn't in mind the insurance aspect, perhaps we can put that aside for a moment as we don't appear to be reaching consensus on that!

What I was more thinking of is if the Revenue and Gardai were to stop a suspect vehicle at one of their joint check points what would the penalties be?

The Revenue matter of evading VRT would be a fine, how much?, (you can evade millions in income tax and VAT and not get locked up, just pay back tax and a fine so I assume this would be similar). but if charged by the Gardai and subsequently prosecuted for driving a vehicle with false registration plates what's the penalty?

Whats the situation in Sweden - surely Nordic logic prevails

Petrol v's 'Daysel' , Classics v's youngtimers v's ordinary cars .

What cultural differences have you noticed - are people happy paying high tax or do they try to avoid it ?
Do people prefer petrol to diesel ?
Is there a fair road tax system regarding all ages of vehicles?
What is insurance like ?

Do-more

oceanman wrote: »

it would depend a lot on the judge, but I couldn't see it being more than a couple of hundred euro..

I'd say a lot of people share that view given that so many "ringers" are on the road. If people thought that their car would be taken and crushed and they would get a €10,000+ fine there might be a lot fewer doing it.

Do-more

Capri wrote: »

Whats the situation in Sweden - surely Nordic logic prevails

Petrol v's 'Daysel' , Classics v's youngtimers v's ordinary cars .

What cultural differences have you noticed - are people happy paying high tax or do they try to avoid it ?
Do people prefer petrol to diesel ?
Is there a fair road tax system regarding all ages of vehicles?
What is insurance like ?

Very few daysuls here in former years due to a combination of cold weather problems with the diesel and the fact that road tax was about 3 times that of petrol equivalents due to the particulate emissions being seen as environmentally unfriendly. That situation changed about 3 years ago when rates were more balanced, diesel is still not very popular but has become a bit more common.

Apart from tax on petrol, cars aren't particularly highly taxed here. I just checked a '91 Merc 560 SEC and the road tax is about €335 a year, so there isn't the problem of road tax being greater than the value of the car here on big engined 10year+ old cars.

Insurance tends to be reasonable enough.

No VRT here and a decent and affordable personal number plate system and no year identifier on the plates so no reason to ring anything here.

Bigus

Do-more wrote: »

When I was asking about the penalties I hadn't in mind the insurance aspect, perhaps we can put that aside for a moment as we don't appear to be reaching consensus on that!

What I was more thinking of is if the Revenue and Gardai were to stop a suspect vehicle at one of their joint check points what would the penalties be?

The Revenue matter of evading VRT would be a fine, how much?, (you can evade millions in income tax and VAT and not get locked up, just pay back tax and a fine so I assume this would be similar). but if charged by the Gardai and subsequently prosecuted for driving a vehicle with false registration plates what's the penalty?

There's a possible 200 euro loss to the revenue, because this is so small they are chasing bigger fish and rightly so , Afterall revenue is about taking in money ,not big brother.

Capri

Do-more wrote: »

Very few daysuls here in former years due to a combination of cold weather problems with the diesel and the fact that road tax was about 3 times that of petrol equivalents due to the particulate emissions being seen as environmentally unfriendly. That situation changed about 3 years ago when rates were more balanced, diesel is still not very popular but has become a bit more common.

Apart from tax on petrol, cars aren't particularly highly taxed here. I just checked a '91 Merc 560 SEC and the road tax is about €335 a year, so there isn't the problem of road tax being greater than the value of the car here on big engined 10year+ old cars.

Insurance tends to be reasonable enough.

No VRT here and a decent and affordable personal number plate system and no year identifier on the plates so no reason to ring anything here.

So THERE ARE countries with sensible car tax policys - the muppets in govt. here just want to kill the goose that could lay the golden eggs - in case she might lay too many :eek: :P:P

trevorbrady

http://cars.donedeal.ie/vintagecars-for-sale/vintage/5709673

i have a log book for sale for a 1982 mini €500

iverjohnston

A comedian as well as a clown!:D

trevorbrady

it's gone, DD are getting quick!!

Capri

Sold !! Brown logbooks are the new Blue chip investments :P:P

Seriously, let's hold a mirror up to this discussion. Would it take place in any other country. A group of people complaining that some others are using a loophole to enjoy their pastime cheaply while those complaining are also complaining about stupid govt regulations that are distorting the market and making it expensive to enjoy said pastime

Let's say that next week the govt announced a €200 across the board motor tax rate and made diesel €1 / litre more expensive and that motorists own the plate and the govt is nationalising the motor insurance business - THEN what would happen ?? (Apart from the govt raising revenue )

dr.fuzzenstein

Well, In Germany people would shop lawbreakers to the authorities who actually deal with matters swiftly and decisively.
It happens in Ireland because of the Brits.
Because Ireland was an occupied country, the general mindset is "fcuk authority" and "I'll look after my own slice first" and people will try to break as many small rules as they can. This used to be to the detriment of the occupying force.
Since that force has left, it is done to the detriment of the Irish people, i.e. you sh*t on each other because of some ingrained need to piss off authority that no longer exists and harm no one but yourself.
This is the reason why Ireland cannot ever be Switzerland or Sweden, because people just plow their own little furrow and if they find a big stick in their way, they'll throw it in the next guy's path, thinking "I'll fix his wagon if he thinks he's getting one up on me", which is why no forward planning exists in this country (don't let the enemy know your plans) and no co-operation between people or joined up thinking (remember, YOU first and everyone else can rot) doesn't exist.
If you pay attention on any report on schooling, hospitals, planning, public transport, social planning and so on, the phrase that is included as standard is "lack of forward planning and joined up thinking".
People always wonder why Ireland suffers from so many different problems, there you go!
Unfortunately this does not look like changing in the near or distant future.

swarlb

Capri wrote: »

Sold !! Brown logbooks are the new Blue chip investments :P:P

Seriously, let's hold a mirror up to this discussion. Would it take place in any other country. A group of people complaining that some others are using a loophole to enjoy their pastime cheaply while those complaining are also complaining about stupid govt regulations that are distorting the market and making it expensive to enjoy said pastime

Let's say that next week the govt announced a €200 across the board motor tax rate and made diesel €1 / litre more expensive and that motorists own the plate and the govt is nationalising the motor insurance business - THEN what would happen ?? (Apart from the govt raising revenue )

Lemme see....
last year my road tax was 56 PA, now its 200....RIP OFF IRELAND
diesel now 2.60 a litre.....RIP OFF IRELAND
tried to get a personalized plate, I wanted SKOBIE 1, was told it would cost 500 Euro 'cos its got a 'K' in it.......RIP OFF IRELAND
I see Quinn is back in the Insurance business, he should be in jail......
WHAT WAS WRONG WITH THE OLD SYSTEM !!!!!!
I'm gettin' straight onto Joe, on Monday, or maybe Tuesday, first I've got to sell that 6 litre diesel Merc piece of junk I have before the NCT is due.....RIP OFF IRELAND

swarlb

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Well, In Germany people would shop lawbreakers to the authorities who actually deal with matters swiftly and decisively.
It happens in Ireland because of the Brits.
Because Ireland was an occupied country, the general mindset is "fcuk authority" and "I'll look after my own slice first" and people will try to break as many small rules as they can. This used to be to the detriment of the occupying force.
Since that force has left, it is done to the detriment of the Irish people, i.e. you sh*t on each other because of some ingrained need to piss off authority that no longer exists and harm no one but yourself.
This is the reason why Ireland cannot ever be Switzerland or Sweden, because people just plow their own little furrow and if they find a big stick in their way, they'll throw it in the next guy's path, thinking "I'll fix his wagon if he thinks he's getting one up on me", which is why no forward planning exists in this country (don't let the enemy know your plans) and no co-operation between people or joined up thinking (remember, YOU first and everyone else can rot) doesn't exist.
If you pay attention on any report on schooling, hospitals, planning, public transport, social planning and so on, the phrase that is included as standard is "lack of forward planning and joined up thinking".
People always wonder why Ireland suffers from so many different problems, there you go!
Unfortunately this does not look like changing in the near or distant future.

Well said, although I wouldn't blame the Brits, I think we were always like that.

dr.fuzzenstein

swarlb wrote: »

Lemme see....
last year my road tax was 150 PA, now its 200....RIP OFF IRELAND
diesel now 2.60 a litre.....RIP OFF IRELAND
tried to get a personalized plate, I wanted SKOBIE 1, was told it would cost 500 Euro 'cos its got a 'K' in it.......RIP OFF IRELAND
I see Quinn is back in the Insurance business, he should be in jail......
WHAT WAS WRONG WITH THE OLD SYSTEM !!!!!!
I'm gettin' straight onto Joe, on Monday.

They do personalised plates now? Must have missed that.

dr.fuzzenstein

swarlb wrote: »

Well said, although I wouldn't blame the Brits, I think we were always like that.

Maybe the Vikings?

ba_barabus

swarlb wrote: »

Well said, although I wouldn't blame the Brits, I think we were always like that.

WHAT HAVE THE ROMANS EVER DONE FOR US

dr.fuzzenstein

I do agree with the sentiment that Ireland is overpriced and you get nothing for it.
But that is down to the "every man for himself" mentality here (IMO).

swarlb

ba_barabus wrote: »

WHAT HAVE THE ROMANS EVER DONE FOR US

They didn't bother invading for a start, probably 'cos they knew we were a bunch of halfwits....

dr.fuzzenstein

ba_barabus wrote: »

WHAT HAVE THE ROMANS EVER DONE FOR US

They didn't hang around here for long. They took one look and decided it wasn't for them. Too cold and rainy, too savage.
To this day you won't find many Italians here and the ones that are here will complain about the food and the weather.;)

delthedriver

swarlb wrote: »

Lemme see....
last year my road tax was 150 PA, now its 200....RIP OFF IRELAND
diesel now 2.60 a litre.....RIP OFF IRELAND
tried to get a personalized plate, I wanted SKOBIE 1, was told it would cost 500 Euro 'cos its got a 'K' in it.......RIP OFF IRELAND
I see Quinn is back in the Insurance business, he should be in jail......
WHAT WAS WRONG WITH THE OLD SYSTEM !!!!!!
I'm gettin' straight onto Joe, on Monday.

Go on , go on , Talk to Joe............. oh yeah.....and how much.....Jaysus , tell me , tell me, talk to Joe......1800...........! Sure Jaysus lads there may be enough material here foe a few songs on Funny Friday...... go on , tell me, talk to Joe!:D

swarlb

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

They do personalised plates now? Must have missed that.

They never did, but it was prompted by Capri in his post, the one I quoted.

dr.fuzzenstein

Anyways, that was my rant for the day. Maybe not entirely on topic.

delthedriver

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

They didn't hang around here for long. They took one look and decided it wasn't for them. Too cold and rainy, too savage.
To this day you won't find many Italians here and the ones that are here will complain about the food and the weather.;)

And their cars don't work in the rain.............too damp!:D

delthedriver

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Anyways, that was my rant for the day. Maybe not entirely on topic.

Eh ? No!:D

hi5

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

They didn't hang around here for long. They took one look and decided it wasn't for them. Too cold and rainy, too savage.
To this day you won't find many Italians here and the ones that are here will complain about the food and the weather.;)

Yeah, the Romans didn't have much time for savages, the Irish sea kept us out and they built a wall to keep the Scots out.

delthedriver

And now back to the cloned cars?

Capri

Do-more wrote: »

Very few daysuls here in former years due to a combination of cold weather problems with the diesel and the fact that road tax was about 3 times that of petrol equivalents due to the particulate emissions being seen as environmentally unfriendly. That situation changed about 3 years ago when rates were more balanced, diesel is still not very popular but has become a bit more common.

Apart from tax on petrol, cars aren't particularly highly taxed here. I just checked a '91 Merc 560 SEC and the road tax is about €335 a year, so there isn't the problem of road tax being greater than the value of the car here on big engined 10year+ old cars.

Insurance tends to be reasonable enough.

No VRT here and a decent and affordable personal number plate system and no year identifier on the plates so no reason to ring anything here.

Well lads, I'm diggin' out me fur hat and bringing all me big V8's up to Sweden where I can enjoy motoring at a reasonable cost - long summer cruisin days and heated garage to polish them in during the winter :rolleyes:

Sam Russell

hi5 wrote: »

Yeah, the Romans didn't have much time for savages, the Irish sea kept us out and they built a wall to keep the Scots out.

The Romans called this place Hibernia (Winterland) so no wonder they did not hang about. Florence or Mullingar? Now let me see ...........

mb1725

How old is this (plate)?

delthedriver

mb1725 wrote: »

How old is this (plate)?

1986 ?.??:)

kasper

if the reg is si 607 it is 1986 if it is ?si 607 it would be 1982 or 1983

Type 17

Even though production of the Mk2 had ceased by the time the reg was issued, it could easily be an import from '83 or '86, which would have been given the next "new" plate at the time.

If it was imported after 1/1/87, it would have been given a plate from its original year of manufacture, eg: 78-D-nnn