Do you get paid to work Overtime?

kippy

Rowley Birkin QC wrote: »

Some very short sighted attitudes on display here.

Explain.

Rowley Birkin QC

kippy wrote: »

Explain.

People in a salaried job saying that they get up and leave bang on 17:30 if they aren't being paid overtime. It's an atrocious attitude to have in a salaried position if you want to have any hope of promotion or pay rise.

Slightly different story in a position where one is paid by the hour. That said, if a job has a few minutes work left over to get it done right, it's still a bad attitude to get up and walk away just because you've been clock watching and your 8 hours are up.

0ph0rce0

Rowley Birkin QC wrote: »

People in a salaried job saying that they get up and leave bang on 17:30 if they aren't being paid overtime. It's an atrocious attitude to have in a salaried position if you want to have any hope of promotion or pay rise.

Slightly different story in a position where one is paid by the hour. That said, if a job has a few minutes work left over to get it done right, it's still a bad attitude to get up and walk away just because you've been clock watching and your 8 hours are up.

And I see that as a ****e attitude, why should I only get a promotion or pay rise just because I work for free. Surly if your good at your job you can get your work done in the 8 hours a day. If you cant then fair enough. Finish off the next day.

But why should I sit around and work my bollocks off for no pay while the next boss sits at home with his family.

Brown nosing is not for me, if I get a promotion or pay rise its because im good at what I do not how many free hours I work.

So i'll let all the other fools get taken advantage of on the whim of getting something out of it.

pickarooney

Used not get taxed on the (mandatory) extra hours but the new gubmint kyboshed that. So I just make less effort now instead.

ScumLord

0ph0rce0 wrote: »

Brown nosing is not for me, if I get a promotion or pay rise its because im good at what I do not how many free hours I work.

It may have little to do with your performance 9 to 5. If your dedicated to working in the best interests of the company the boss will look favourably on you.

A business is often considered by the owner to be their baby, just putting in your hours makes you no more valuable than a machine on the factory floor. Doing what it takes to help the company save money, be more profitable and treating it as something you care about because it helps you is just as important to your employer as just doing your job efficiently.

That's in a small business though. In a large company your just statistics attached to a name and maybe that's why people don't care as much about the health of the company.

keithclancy

Rowley Birkin QC wrote: »

People in a salaried job saying that they get up and leave bang on 17:30 if they aren't being paid overtime. It's an atrocious attitude to have in a salaried position if you want to have any hope of promotion or pay rise.

Slightly different story in a position where one is paid by the hour. That said, if a job has a few minutes work left over to get it done right, it's still a bad attitude to get up and walk away just because you've been clock watching and your 8 hours are up.

If your not getting your work finished before the end of your day then your're either not doing your job properly or there are insufficient resources available to complete the tasks.

If there are insufficent resources available then the employer needs to address that issue, having overtime as 'the norm' can lead to problems.

ScumLord

keithclancy wrote: »

If your not getting your work finished before the end of your day then your're either not doing your job properly or there are insufficient resources available to complete the tasks.

Nothings ever so simple. there can be hundreds of reasons your not getting your work done within a certain period of time.

Rowley Birkin QC

ScumLord wrote: »

It may have little to do with your performance 9 to 5. If your dedicated to working in the best interests of the company the boss will look favourably on you.

A business is often considered by the owner to be their baby, just putting in your hours makes you no more valuable than a machine on the factory floor. Doing what it takes to help the company save money, be more profitable and treating it as something you care about because it helps you is just as important to your employer as just doing your job efficiently.

That's in a small business though. In a large company your just statistics attached to a name and maybe that's why people don't care as much about the health of the company.

You've said exactly what I was trying to say!

Putting in the extra hours in a small-medium business can reap huge rewards, maybe not so much in a larger corporation.

Maybe it's just my attitude, but if I'm in the middle of something and want to get it done properly I'll stay at it til it's finished.

0ph0rce0

ScumLord wrote: »

Nothings ever so simple. there can be hundreds of reasons your not getting your work done within a certain period of time.

People on here saying they do more than double their weekly hours, there is defiantly something wrong with that.

Ray Palmer

ScumLord wrote: »

It may have little to do with your performance 9 to 5. If your dedicated to working in the best interests of the company the boss will look favourably on you.

A business is often considered by the owner to be their baby, just putting in your hours makes you no more valuable than a machine on the factory floor. Doing what it takes to help the company save money, be more profitable and treating it as something you care about because it helps you is just as important to your employer as just doing your job efficiently.

That's in a small business though. In a large company your just statistics attached to a name and maybe that's why people don't care as much about the health of the company.

Well you see that is the owner caring about his interests and profits over being a good employer. I haves worked with a few who see the company as their baby and they are the worst.
The idea that doing your job not being any value' factory machine' is really short sighted. Any thing that works consistently is of great value.
Large companies act the same and it is not unique to small ones. Saw Accenture do the overtime to promotion line. One guy was promoted due to overtime. Reason he did so much was because he couldn't do the work in a given time. They ended up with managers who only knew more hours meant good work. It doesn't working smart not longer is the better way.
It sounds like you have little experience in the work with your attitude. Spend some time in other companies you will see better work practices.

ScumLord

0ph0rce0 wrote: »

People on here saying they do more than double their weekly hours, there is defiantly something wrong with that.

If they're being forced to work those hours then yes, there's something wrong with that. But if they're working the extra hours so they can keep their place of work in business then it's admirable.

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Well you see that is the owner caring about his interests and profits over being a good employer.

If his interests are keeping the company going then it's in everyone's best interests. If the company closes down then everybody's out of work.

There's pretty much very little room for promotions in a small company so that's not why people work extra hours. They work the extra hours to keep the business that puts money in their pocket at the end of the week going.

I've seen so many people that seem to think that a business can invent money out of thin air. If the work isn't done the money doesn't come in, if you want to just do nine to five that's fine, your entitled to do so but if the company your working for is struggling and nobody cares to put in the work needed to keep that company afloat it will fail, and you will lose your job. There's no way around that fact.

keithclancy

ScumLord wrote: »

Nothings ever so simple. there can be hundreds of reasons your not getting your work done within a certain period of time.

Frequent overtime (paid or unpaid) is seen as a problem, when people work a lot of it reduces their productivity.

But overtime usually happens in my experience due to bad planning.

Rowley Birkin QC

ScumLord wrote: »

If they're being forced to work those hours then yes, there's something wrong with that. But if they're working the extra hours so they can keep their place of work in business then it's admirable.

If his interests are keeping the company going then it's in everyone's best interests. If the company closes down then everybody's out of work.

There's pretty much very little room for promotions in a small company so that's not why people work extra hours. They work the extra hours to keep the business that puts money in their pocket at the end of the week going.

I've seen so many people that seem to think that a business can invent money out of thin air. If the work isn't done the money doesn't come in, if you want to just do nine to five that's fine, your entitled to do so but if the company your working for is struggling and nobody cares to put in the work needed to keep that company afloat it will fail, and you will lose your job. There's no way around that fact.

This. Exactly this.

Ray Palmer

ScumLord wrote: »

If his interests are keeping the company going then it's in everyone's best interests. If the company closes down then everybody's out of work.

There's pretty much very little room for promotions in a small company so that's not why people work extra hours. They work the extra hours to keep the business that puts money in their pocket at the end of the week going.

I've seen so many people that seem to think that a business can invent money out of thin air. If the work isn't done the money doesn't come in, if you want to just do nine to five that's fine, your entitled to do so but if the company your working for is struggling and nobody cares to put in the work needed to keep that company afloat it will fail, and you will lose your job. There's no way around that fact.

I think you are making excuses based on one situation. Company struggling and will fail without overtime.
I have been there and put in the effort and time. The problem is when the company starts doing better the same attitude exists. Very hard for the owner to see the profits he feels he should get being paid to the people creating it. I have seen this time and time again.
During the IT boom we were begged to stick with the company even though we could work less and get paid more. When the company was doing well and the industry wasn't we were told we could be replaced easily and not to ask for more money.
The attitude of expecting free work doesn't go away.

Here we feel work is its own reward. Expect to be rewarded twice as much from now on.

gw80

there are employee,rs out there who are definently taking advantage of the current climate, i worked at a place recently where at there quarterly meeting the first thing on the screen was the unemployment rate locally and the rate nationally,scaremongering, said there was no overtime rate and worked on a time and motion system but 100% a day was not good enought so you ended up coming in a couple of hours early just to keep it up, and on a screen in the canteen they had some condecending bull**** about not to be watching the news every day about the recession or job losses or you,ll just end up depressed,(more scaremongering) i have never had a problem with working back if it was needed to get a job done by a certain time or urgent in any other way, because that works both ways,there maybe times when i could do with the extra hours, but this place had a system in place to squeeze as much out of their workers as possible, and this was a "non union company" by the way,
it really does not encourage any loyalty to the company at all as i think nearly everyone who worked there were always checking the fas site or local papers for different jobs,

donkey balls

twowheelsonly wrote: »

You're a fool if you allow that to happen. That leave is yours and you're entitled to take it. If the company can't afford to give you the time off then they must pay you for it or allow you to take it at a later time. It CAN'T just be written off unless you consent to it.



That's not unusual, in particular where it's 'short-term' training of only a few hours or one or two days.
Think about it. Without training/induction or whatever you're of zero use to the company. With training you are then available and capable of working, even at part-time rates of 10 hours a week it's 500 hours a year (but probably a lot more in most cases) for the sake of giving a few hours up for free to be trained.

BTW, was your Agency pay a 'Composite' rate or was it minimum wage? If it was a composite rate then it would cover unsocial hours (which are a thing of the past really..) but if it was minimum wage or close to it then it most likely wouldn't and you should be paid extra. Should be explained at the beginning of the contract though.

A lot of people don't know their rights regarding employment law under the Safety Health and Welfare Act 2005,It states that any training/up skilling that an employee has to do in order for them to carry out their duties must be paid by the employer.
About two years ago I had to re validate one of my licences which I did on my own time&money when I went to look for the cost of the course back of my employer,They told me that they don't have to pay me for the course that's untill I showed them the legislation;)
Their is also employers out there taking the piss regarding wages T&C using the current climate as a battering ram to lower the employees wage,Last year I came across a job for a transport manager on the net which required the person to have the following.
Transport mgmt CPC, ADR licence,DGSA Licence,artic truck licence along with route planning/fleet maintenance along with a load of other relevant duties,And the salary was about 24/25k.:eek:

Miss Lockhart

I run my own business where I also employ others. I really appreciate if my employees are flexible sometimes when something pressing needs to be finished. In return I am flexible for them. However, I would never expect them to do unpaid overtime on an ongoing basis. Either they are incapable/unwilling to do their job in the time allotted or the time allotted is not reasonable. If it is the former then I will address this with them and try to remedy it, and if it is the latter then it is my problem not theirs.

I'm really sick of hearing about self-employed people with their own business whinging about their struggles and seeing how their employees often suffer. If the business is viable then make it work - if you can't make a profit to make it worthwhile then it's not viable so stop wasting your time - else suck it up and quit whinging.

Blisterman

Nope, I often work 10 hours+ extra a week unpaid, until the work gets done.

But then again, I actually enjoy my job and take some pride in it.

Big Mouth

You can see the types in this thread who will never run a business thats fro sure. "Out the door bang on 5pm" "If you haven't done your work in the 8 hours you're not good at it" :rolleyes:, so if a customer calls @ 4.59pm and needs a half hour of your time its your fault?

People like with those attitudes will always hate "management" and have a list of complaints maybe its a large company thing, I've no experience of working in large companies but I do in small businesses and its not some evil boss smoking cigars and whipping employees, alot of these small business owners can't sleep at night stressing over their company and saving their employees jobs.

At the end of the day there is an awful lot to be said for hard graft and good attitudes reap the benefits, any successful person I know worked hard and got rewarded in the long run.

Miss Lockhart

Big Mouth wrote: »

You can see the types in this thread who will never run a business thats fro sure. "Out the door bang on 5pm" "If you haven't done your work in the 8 hours you're not good at it" :rolleyes:, so if a customer calls @ 4.59pm and needs a half hour of your time its your fault?

People like with those attitudes will always hate "management" and have a list of complaints maybe its a large company thing, I've no experience of working in large companies but I do in small businesses and its not some evil boss smoking cigars and whipping employees, alot of these small business owners can't sleep at night stressing over their company and saving their employees jobs.

At the end of the day there is an awful lot to be said for hard graft and good attitudes reap the benefits, any successful person I know worked hard and got rewarded in the long run.

Except some of us do run our own business and don't believe in unpaid overtime. Nor do we believe in exploiting employees to keep unviable businesses afloat.

Big Mouth

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

I run my own business where I also employ others. I really appreciate if my employees are flexible sometimes when something pressing needs to be finished. In return I am flexible for them. However, I would never expect them to do unpaid overtime on an ongoing basis. Either they are incapable/unwilling to do their job in the time allotted or the time allotted is not reasonable. If it is the former then I will address this with them and try to remedy it, and if it is the latter then it is my problem not theirs.

I'm really sick of hearing about self-employed people with their own business whinging about their struggles and seeing how their employees often suffer. If the business is viable then make it work - if you can't make a profit to make it worthwhile then it's not viable so stop wasting your time - else suck it up and quit whinging.

How long are you in business? You have a very simplistic view of the world.

So if you receive your monthly management accounts and you have lost for the month you're getting ready to close the doors?

So basically don't fight to turn a company around just quit, knock your creditors and all staff go on the dole......the world would be a better place if everyone thought like you :rolleyes:

Rowley Birkin QC

Big Mouth wrote: »

You can see the types in this thread who will never run a business thats fro sure. "Out the door bang on 5pm" "If you haven't done your work in the 8 hours you're not good at it" :rolleyes:, so if a customer calls @ 4.59pm and needs a half hour of your time its your fault?

Really not trying to stir up a hornet's nest but this was something I experienced: I worked in a county council office for a summer on work experience. They all refused to answer phones after 16:15 and closed the public counter. When I enquired as to why this happened, I was told that if they took a call after that time there was a chance they might have to stay after 17:00.

The worst thing was that this was in a Planning Office where deadlines are measured down to the minute.

Big Mouth

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

Except some of us do run our own business and don't believe in unpaid overtime. Nor do we believe in exploiting employees to keep unviable businesses afloat.

I'd say employees exploit employers more than the other way round in Ireland.

Miss Lockhart

Big Mouth wrote: »

How long are you in business? You have a very simplistic view of the world.

So if you receive your monthly management accounts and you have lost for the month you're getting ready to close the doors?

So basically don't fight to turn a company around just quit, knock your creditors and all staff go on the dole......the world would be a better place if everyone thought like you :rolleyes:

Yes, because that's exactly what I said - the roll eyes just made your point irrefutable.

My business is successful - that's all you need to know. How's your business?

my my my

i do in me bollix

Big Mouth

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

Yes, because that's exactly what I said - the roll eyes just made your point irrefutable.

My business is successful - that's all you need to know. How's your business?

Its tough like most people's i'd imagine, I hope your business stays that way as there a million and one things that can go wrong out of your control.

woodoo

Rowley Birkin QC wrote: »

You've said exactly what I was trying to say!

Putting in the extra hours in a small-medium business can reap huge rewards, maybe not so much in a larger corporation.

Maybe it's just my attitude, but if I'm in the middle of something and want to get it done properly I'll stay at it til it's finished.

But what is wrong with expecting them hours back then on a quiet day. And if there are no quiet times but you are expected to work overtime for free then you are short staffed.

I work only the hours i am paid for and nothing more. I work hard while i'm there. No free work from me.

Crooked Jack

Big Mouth wrote: »

I'd say employees exploit employers more than the other way round in Ireland.

How did you come to that conclusion

Madam_X

toexpress wrote: »

It's an employers market. I have my own business and I can tell you if someone mentioned to me over time they would be finding themselves on the short end of me very quickly. Keeping in mind that in this economy it's bloody hard to keep a business going. There are weeks when I don't get paid and only for the fact I "consult" one afternoon a week to the public sector I would be up the creek myself. It's that few hours a week that I do which makes sure my house is run monthly. Overtime, to hell with it!!!

So if one of your employees works 50 hours when they get paid for 40 they're on your "possible firing" list if they were to ask for overtime? Great employer there - using intimidation tactics. That stuff affects staff morale, something that's not good for business.

I dislike though when people say here that those who work for nothing are mugs and deserve it. I see them just as badly treated workers, and the fault lies with their employer; not fair to deflect it onto the worker.

I'm also not sure that those who voluntarily work unpaid overtime will be respected for it - the opposite I'd reckon. From what I see, it's the staff who work hard but are also able to put the foot down when needs be, that get ahead.
Whatever about finishing at 5.30 and staying on until 6 just to get everything cleared up for the next day, feeling obliged to stay on until 8 or 9 for nothing is not a good thing in any way.

Rowley Birkin QC

woodoo wrote: »

But what is wrong with expecting them hours back then on a quiet day. And if there are no quiet times but you are expected to work overtime for free then you are short staffed.

I work only the hours i am paid for and nothing more. I work hard while i'm there. No free work from me.

Absolutely nothing. I frequently come in "late" and leave "early" as and when I need to. That flexibility came after I had proved my worth to my employer though, by getting the job done right.