Against the head

jm08

jm08 wrote: »

So what would your thoughts be on Jonathan Sexton being paid by Denis O'Brien who owns Newstalk (and a few other radio stations in Ireland) as well as owning a 29.9% stakeholder in Indep. News & Media who 3/4s of the journalists in Ireland work for (including Thornley who works for Newstalk).

Should we discard everything that is ever said and written about Sexton because that is a huge conflict of interest?

If Jonathan Sexton employed O'Brien you might have a case.

Instead you're engaging in a false equivocation and some whataboutism once again. These are common logical fallacies amongst those that I linked to yesterday.

jm08

Deleted User wrote: »

If Jonathan Sexton employed O'Brien you might have a case.

Instead you're engaging in a false equivocation and some whataboutism once again. These are common logical fallacies amongst those that I linked to yesterday.

Answer this question Yes or No. Is it a conflict of interests to have journalists, panelists who share the same employer writing and commenting on Sexton?

jm08

Teferi wrote: »

Google: "Define Whataboutery".

I thought we were discussing Conflict of Interest. Thats not whataboutery.

TommyOM

jm08 wrote: »

Answer this question Yes or No. Is it a conflict of interests to have journalists, panelists who share the same employer writing and commenting on Sexton?

Whataboutery.

Can you actually argue anything without engaging in whataboutery?

Teferi

jm08 wrote: »

I thought we were discussing Conflict of Interest. Thats not whataboutery.

It's clear that you have not googled the definition of whataboutery anyway.

jm08

jm08 wrote: »

Answer this question Yes or No. Is it a conflict of interests to have journalists, panelists who share the same employer writing and commenting on Sexton?

Yes. At no stage in this thread have I ever said that there aren't conflict of interests all over the place.

Once more. The reason that we have become bogged down in this conflict of interest 'chat' is that you painfully and blindly refuted Frankie Sheahan's readily visible conflict of interest repeatedly in the face of logic, reason and evidence.

Remember we all chatted before about how Thornley would never criticise Kidney because he had an "in". That was a superb example of a conflict of interest. Their interests had become aligned. It was in Thornley's interest that Kidney continue as Ireland coach so he could get the 'scoop'.

TommyOM

This is getting painful. It's incredibly simple but jm08 just can't grasp it. I suggest we just move on.

molloyjh

phog wrote: »

Their profile is probably based on their own gametime and success of team rather than a mention during rugby programme.

To the likes of you and I mentions on a TV show probably have next to no impact. To the average punter though if you have Frankie on talking about a player a lot they will become more familiar with him than a guy that isn't talked about. Not everyone is coming from the same place you and I are.

As I said it probably doesn't have a massive impact on their actual marketability. But that won't stop Frankie from trying to get their name out there more, which in itself pollutes what he should be doing. And that's where the problem lies.

phog

Mr Elvery is opening a new Sports Store in Clonmel, he likes the idea of having a a sports start open it as it will give him some much needed publicity.

Does he contact agents and get prices for the various players that they have on their books or does he sit down in front of the TV and counts the amount of times a particular player is mentioned during the course of a game, then he waits for ATH so see if the same player gets a few mentions there then he goes and checks all the MotM awards that player has received and finally he has to find out who the agent is for that player to arrange a booking.

sydthebeat

couldn't give 2 hoots if jonathon sexton bigged up denis o brien in an interview

sydthebeat

phog wrote: »

Mr Elvery is opening a new Sports Store in Clonmel, he likes the idea of having a a sports start open it as it will give him some much needed publicity.

Does he contact agents and get prices for the various players that they have on their books or does he sit down in front of the TV and counts the amount of times a particular player is mentioned during the course of a game, then he waits for ATH so see if the same player gets a few mentions there then he goes and checks all the MotM awards that player has received and finally he has to find out who the agent is for that player to arrange a booking.

said agent says "i have X young up and coming player or Y senior reserve player"

Mr Elvery says... "hey yeah, ive heard the name of X before, havent a clue who Y is... ill take him"

QED

phog

sydthebeat wrote: »

said agent says "i have X young up and coming player or Y senior reserve player"

Mr Elvery says... "hey yeah, ive heard the name of X before, havent a clue who Y is... ill take him"

QED

And you think he only heard of him from ATH :eek:

sydthebeat

phog wrote: »

And you think he only heard of him from ATH :eek:

see this is what you dont get...

its doesnt matter WHERE he heard him....

all that matters is the name is out there... THATS publicity.

jm08

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes. At no stage in this thread have I ever said that there aren't conflict of interests all over the place.

Once more. The reason that we have become bogged down in this conflict of interest 'chat' is that you painfully and blindly refuted Frankie Sheahan's readily visible conflict of interest repeatedly in the face of logic, reason and evidence.

Remember we all chatted before about how Thornley would never criticise Kidney because he had an "in". That was a superb example of a conflict of interest. Their interests had become aligned. It was in Thornley's interest that Kidney continue as Ireland coach so he could get the 'scoop'.

Good. You get it now. My point all along is that its not black and white as there are 'conflict of interests*' everywhere. Ireland is a very small place where everyone knows everyone else. You trivialise real conflicts of interest by your begrudgery of Frankie Sheahan getting a punditry gig because he has one or two clients who might get a mention.

*note inverted commas.

jm08

jm08 wrote: »

Good. You get it now. My point all along is that its not black and white as there are 'conflict of interests*' everywhere. Ireland is a very small place where everyone knows everyone else. You trivialise real conflicts of interest by your begrudgery of Frankie Sheahan getting a punditry gig because he has one or two clients who might get a mention.

*note inverted commas.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

I know that this has been your point. That doesn't mean its valid or even relevant!

phog

sydthebeat wrote: »

see this is what you dont get...

its doesnt matter WHERE he heard him....

all that matters is the name is out there... THATS publicity.

His name is out there because he's seen playing rugby not because he got a MotM award or was mentioned as having a great game.

molloyjh

phog wrote: »

Mr Elvery is opening a new Sports Store in Clonmel, he likes the idea of having a a sports start open it as it will give him some much needed publicity.

Does he contact agents and get prices for the various players that they have on their books or does he sit down in front of the TV and counts the amount of times a particular player is mentioned during the course of a game, then he waits for ATH so see if the same player gets a few mentions there then he goes and checks all the MotM awards that player has received and finally he has to find out who the agent is for that player to arrange a booking.

I'm not sure if you're reading all of my posts here on this....

molloyjh wrote: »

As I said it probably doesn't have a massive impact on their actual marketability. But that won't stop Frankie from trying to get their name out there more, which in itself pollutes what he should be doing. And that's where the problem lies.

Take for example Archer. He's not within an arses roar of the Ireland squad but that hasn't stopped Frankie mentioning him as being a contender on numerous occasions. Has that provided Archer with loads of commercial opportunities? Almost certainly not. Has it impacted Frankies performance of his role as analyst with RTE? Yes it certainly has. That is the problem.

jm08

Deleted User wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

I know that this has been your point. That doesn't mean its valid or even relevant!

Throwing up excuses of 'whataboutism' is also 'whataboutism'

Teferi

phog wrote: »

His name is out there because he's seen playing rugby not because he got a MotM award or was mentioned as having a great game.

Do you not understand how the profile of a player is built?

jm08

jm08 wrote: »

Throwing up excuses of 'whataboutism' is also 'whataboutism'

No it's not. It's exposing a logical fallacy in your argument. It basically means what you've written is utter and abject rubbish and basically has nothing to do with what anyone else has been talking about.

Deleted User wrote: »

@jm08 you should take a read of this page, and perhaps a quick scan of these two pages (1,2).

Then maybe take a deep breath and realise how we've gotten through so many posts in this thread today in defence of Sheahan's clear conflict of interest in being a commentator/analyst and agent to those he's supposed to be commentating on / analysing for the media.

The "downstream" issues (i.e saying that someone who hires a player based solely on their MoTM awards is to blame) are independent issues (and though also failings) so do not trump nor affect the existence of a clear conflict of interest in the discussed case. A logical example would be that a drunk driver who knocked someone down while they were "somewhere they shouldn't be" isn't absolved of the offence of drink driving.

Please try to use logic and reasoning and not fallacies if you wish to 'debate' / 'defend' Sheahan's situation any further. Otherwise it's wholly pointless and drain circling.

jm08

Deleted User wrote: »

No it's not. It's exposing a logical fallacy in your argument. It basically means what you've written is utter and abject rubbish and basically has nothing to do with what anyone else has been talking about.

Emmet, not everything is black and white the way you want it to be.

Posters here are using 'conflict of interest' here as a reason for not liking Frankie Sheehan as a commentator when they don't need to.

I personally don't like Frankie as a pundit, but it has got nothing to do with who he might get a few speaking gigs for. I just don't like his style of punditry (though I think he is ok as a match commentator).

phog

Teferi wrote: »

Do you not understand how the profile of a player is built?

Yes by being successful on the field of play.

Let's say Clinton Huppert was on Frankie's books and Frankie somehow managed to talk about him every week on ATH but he wasn't featuring much for Munster how would any business man book him as a high profile player or how would it convince Munster to extend his contract.

jm08

jm08 wrote: »

Emmet, not everything is black and white the way you want it to be.

Posters here are using 'conflict of interest' here as a reason for not liking Frankie Sheehan as a commentator when they don't need to.

I personally don't like Frankie as a pundit, but it has got nothing to do with who he might get a few speaking gigs for. I just don't like his style of punditry (though I think he is ok as a match commentator).

Re: 'Black and White' - There is nothing unclear about Frankie's two roles (1 as a player agent & another as a media pundit/commentator/analyst) having a conflict of interest. Fact, not opinion. This is certainly "black and white".

Re : 'liking Frankie' - Grand, opinion, nobody is wrong nobody is right. If someone wants to use the above as a basis for not liking Frankie as a pundit, they are absolutely entitled to though.

phog

phog wrote: »

Yes by being successful on the field of play.

Let's say Clinton Huppert was on Frankie's books and Frankie somehow managed to talk about him every week on ATH but he wasn't featuring much for Munster how would any business man book him as a high profile player or how would it convince Munster to extend his contract.

Can you explain the role of an agent please? Your other posts would suggest that they are irrelevant as a player is his own promoter and his performances are the only thing that increases his profile.

jm08

phog wrote: »

Yes by being successful on the field of play.

Let's say Clinton Huppert was on Frankie's books and Frankie somehow managed to talk about him every week on ATH but he wasn't featuring much for Munster how would any business man book him as a high profile player or how would it convince Munster to extend his contract.

Or take Robbie Henshaw ... his agent is his father (who isn't a pundit and would have no great media connections). His media profile is being built up by his playing on the pitch and by Three!

jm08

Deleted User wrote: »

Can you explain the role of an agent please? Your other posts would suggest that they are irrelevant as a player is his own promoter and his performances are the only thing that increases his profile.

Better still - from the horses mouth.

http://www.the42.ie/niall-woods-navy-blue-1132996-Oct2013/

“You have to make sure you have the right client because if you represent players who aren’t good enough, your word won’t be taken seriously.”

Teferi

phog wrote: »

Yes by being successful on the field of play.

Let's say Clinton Huppert was on Frankie's books and Frankie somehow managed to talk about him every week on ATH but he wasn't featuring much for Munster how would any business man book him as a high profile player or how would it convince Munster to extend his contract.

Pure naivety.

Pashun and talent only help you so far, you also have to be sellable in order to get the best deal possible and this is through nominations, awards etc. which all get talked about in the media.

sydthebeat

ah this topic has just gone to all kinds of silliness.... some posters would argue black is white at this stage

TommyOM

sydthebeat wrote: »

ah this topic has just gone to all kinds of silliness.... some posters would argue black is white at this stage

It's jm08 and phog. Why do posters even bother?

phog

Teferi wrote: »

Pure naivety.

Pashun and talent only help you so far, you also have to be sellable in order to get the best deal possible and this is through nominations, awards etc. which all get talked about in the media.

Why thank TommyOM's post if you want to engage?

TommyOM wrote: »

It's jm08 and phog. Why do posters even bother?