Having the door held open and other gestures

evilmonkee

I hold the door open for both genders.

I was on a date once where the man stood up when I got up to go to the bathroom, I got very confused and asked where he was going

I was walking the dog one evening when two large men were also walking on the footpath. They refused to move in even though I had the dog walking directly on front of me to make as much space as possible for them, they also both blatently looked at me moments before hand while I was picking up dog poop... the dog decided to sniff the man who came very close to her.... He nearly jumped out of his skin, it was very funny.

jackofalltrades

Tmeos wrote:

chivalry is really appealing to me though I would identify as a femenist.

I really don't understand how someone who identifies as a feminist could find chivalry appealing.

Reesy wrote: »

That's not chivalrous, it's just patronising, controlling ****e like the woman who tells her husband what to wear.

But that's exactly what chivalry is. It's a system that defines women as delicate, incapable people that have to be looked after. In an era of equality it along with its partner chauvinism, need to be left behind.

While the vast majority of men practising it aren't consciously thinking that they are better then women, not treating someone as an equal will naturally lead to a mindframe that you consider yourself superior, even if only at a subconscious level.

Star Lord

jackofalltrades wrote: »

But that's exactly what chivalry is. It's a system that defines women as delicate, incapable people that have to be looked after. In an era of equality it along with its partner chauvinism, need to be left behind.

While the vast majority of men practising it aren't consciously thinking that they are better then women, not treating someone as an equal will naturally lead to a mindframe that you consider yourself superior, even if only at a subconscious level.

I'm sorry, but I've got to call bullsh*t on this. Chivalry does not mean that, either implied or otherwise. I completely failed to see how making someone else's decisions for them is anything but rude, obnoxious and arrogant. These things are the opposite to being chivalrous.

An example of a thing that I have done that I would consider chivalrous would be opening the car door for my lady in the rain, holding the umbrella over her while she gets in, simply send that she didn't get wet. If you take the mind frame of your post, this would be because I saw her as incapable of withstanding the rain, or of opening the door herself. Were either of these the case? No. I see it as simply having the manners to try to ensure she stayed dry. Do I see myself as better than her in any way? Not even in the slightest.

If you're talking old fashioned chivalry, then I'd have taken my coat off and laid it over puddles for her to walk over. Yeah, that isn't gonna happen. (Though she did suggest it...) :pac:

FrogMarch

jackofalltrades wrote: »

I really don't understand how someone who identifies as a feminist could find chivalry appealing.

But that's exactly what chivalry is. It's a system that defines women as delicate, incapable people that have to be looked after. In an era of equality it along with its partner chauvinism, need to be left behind.

In fairness, modern feminism defines women as victims. Which is worse?

Hopefully there are still enough good people out there to appreciate good courtesy and manners and we don't end up in a society where being a decent person regularly gets you labeled as a 'chauvinist pig'.

Madam_X

We won't. Most women don't subscribe to that kind of fanaticism.

jackofalltrades

DamoElDiablo wrote: »

I'm sorry, but I've got to call bullsh*t on this. Chivalry does not mean that, either implied or otherwise. I completely failed to see how making someone else's decisions for them is anything but rude, obnoxious and arrogant. These things are the opposite to being chivalrous.

Chivalry was designed to look after the weak in society. Women were included in this "weak" group.

A man ordering food for women comes from a time where it was considered indecent for women to talk to a strange man. Society was mainly male driven and was making up the rules for how women should behave themselves. A man changing a woman's drink order from a pint to a glass of wine is done so on the basis that a pint is a mans drink and should not be drank by a woman because it is unladylike.

Chivalry gave men the roles of being the brave,strong, protector and it gave women the roles of being submissive, weak and modest. It assigns power and control to men while taking it away from women.

An example of a thing that I have done that I would consider chivalrous would be opening the car door for my lady in the rain, holding the umbrella over her while she gets in, simply send that she didn't get wet. If you take the mind frame of your post, this would be because I saw her as incapable of withstanding the rain, or of opening the door herself. Were either of these the case? No. I see it as simply having the manners to try to ensure she stayed dry. Do I see myself as better than her in any way? Not even in the slightest.

There seems to be a confusion in this thread over what exactly is the difference between good manners/chivalry and behaviour in a caring relationship. What you describe above I would define as being part of a caring relationship. If you opened/closed the door for her every time she got into the car I would see that as a chivalrous behaviour.

Sorcha16

jackofalltrades wrote: »

There seems to be a confusion in this thread over what exactly is the difference between good manners/chivalry and behaviour in a caring relationship. What you describe above I would define as being part of a caring relationship. If you opened/closed the door for her every time she got into the car I would see that as a chivalrous behaviour.

I think a lot of people like to redefine things in this forum when the traditional definition doesn't suit them, which of course is their prerogative. The flirting thread however, is another example

IzzyWizzy

Ellsbells wrote: »

Who said it was in a narky manner?

If you dont have the manners to thank someone for opening a door for you then dont take the gesture.. There is no excuse for bad manners.

What if they were in a world of their own, having received bad news at a hospital appointment or having been told a loved one is very sick? When I accidentally 'blank' people, it's almost always because I'm worrying about something and not paying attention to my surroundings.

Star Lord

jackofalltrades wrote: »

There seems to be a confusion in this thread over what exactly is the difference between good manners/chivalry and behaviour in a caring relationship. What you describe above I would define as being part of a caring relationship. If you opened/closed the door for her every time she got into the car I would see that as a chivalrous behaviour.

There seems to be some confusion as to what decade we live in too. As what is considered to be good manners has changed, what is considered chivalrous has also changed. Simply put, because it may have originally meant/inferred something, does not automatically mean that the modern day application infers the same.

anothernewbie

Went to the cinema recently & on our way out two guys who were going into the cinema held the door open for me and my friend. My jaw almost hit the floor, I thought it was a really nice gesture and definitely put a smile on my face for the rest of the night

Gypsy Roman

I saw an old woman about 70 today ahve the door held open for her in Killkeny library and she said to the lad get out of my F***ing way hahaha,sometimes bad mannors can be hillarious.

Princess Peach

On the bus to college yesterday and it was an old bus with a really hard to open back door. This man held the door open from the outside for every single person getting off the bus. I just thought that was so nice, instead of just going on his way

Gypsy Roman

Princess Peach wrote: »

On the bus to college yesterday and it was an old bus with a really hard to open back door. This man held the door open from the outside for every single person getting off the bus. I just thought that was so nice, instead of just going on his way

Wonder how many wallets he managed to pick pocket haha

el flaco

Does chivalry have to be about weakness? Can it not also be about carrying out an act for a person because you hold them in high regard?

Sorcha16

el flaco wrote: »

Does chivalry have to be about weakness? Can it not also be about carrying out an act for a person because you hold them in high regard?

I don't think weakness is ever the motivating factor, I think chivalry is usually a courteous act towards someone you hold in high esteem or simply an expression of one's own manners.

Fizzlesque

While reading this thread I was reminded of a situation with my ex boyfriend. We were getting on a bus and he stood back to let me on first but as I was getting on he put his hand on my back, in a sort of usher-me-in fashion, but somehow managed to propel me faster than my feet were moving me and sent me thundering to the floor.

Me and my bruised knees managed to laugh it off, once I was safely ensconced in my seat, which, he did not try to usher me in to, thankfully.

jaffacakesyum

Sorcha16 wrote: »

I don't think weakness is ever the motivating factor, I think chivalry is usually a courteous act towards someone you hold in high esteem or simply an expression of one's own manners.

Why is it not towards men you hold of high esteem then?

(I realise guys on here have been saying they would do it for either gender but I'm talking about people who are only chivalorous towards women)

Sorcha16

jaffacakesyum wrote: »

Why is it not towards men you hold of high esteem then? (I realise guys on here have been saying they would do it for either gender but I'm talking about people who are only chivalorous towards women)

Some men are possibly only chivalrous to women because they would like that woman to regard them as a gentleman and so make a special effort to appear that way to her. They might not care for another man's opinion to the same extent and so are less inclined to make a special effort towards them

FrogMarch

Sorcha16 wrote: »

Some men are possibly only chivalrous to women because they would like that woman to regard them as a gentleman and so make a special effort to appear that way to her. They might not care for another man's opinion to the same extent and so are less inclined to make a special effort towards them

From observation, men who hold the door open for women pretty much do it for men, old women, kids and everyone else. Because they're polite.

Sorcha16

FrogMarch wrote: »

From observation, men who hold the door open for women pretty much do it for men, old women, kids and everyone else. Because they're polite.

See here:

Sorcha16 wrote: »

I think chivalry is usually a courteous act towards someone you hold in high esteem or simply an expression of one's own manners.

Gypsy Roman

Biggest slap in the face is letting someone out in your car and they dont wave or anything,how rude and annoying is that.

Scar Tissue

I hold the door open for anyone, it's just common courtesy in my eyes. If someone doesn't acknowledge it then that's their prerogative. The gesture is kind of lost in my opinion if you make light of them not acknowledging you, you shouldn't be doing it for saying thanks, even if it's only polite to say so.

I do give my seat up for women on the bus, in the pub etc, always have always will.

jackofalltrades

DamoElDiablo wrote: »

what is considered chivalrous has also changed.

Chivalry hasn't really changed, more so it's acceptance among women and men is what has changed. The more patronising the gestures, the more likely it is to be dropped.

Simply put, because it may have originally meant/inferred something, does not automatically mean that the modern day application infers the same.

Could you give an example of a gesture thats meaning has changed?

FrogMarch wrote:

From observation, men who hold the door open for women pretty much do it for men, old women, kids and everyone else. Because they're polite.

The problem for women offended by chivalry, is that they don't know whether the man holding the door open for them is doing it out of manners or "because she is a lady". Which could lead to the situation the OP describes.

Sala

Chivalry is gone, good manners remain. (in some people!). I think when women say they like chivalry, they really mean they like good manners in a man. I am a woman and always stand back and hold a door open for people regardless of gender. I stand up to shake someone's hand if they come to the table. I say please and thank you. I give up my seat to people who need it, but I admit I take seats off men on a night out, but I figure high heels justify that I need it more!

I am shocked to hear some men still order their dates food! Bet they ordered salad or some ****e not worth going to a restaurant for. And I hate the "Pints are unladylike" attitude. I don;t drink beer but it's the same line as assuming the men order the steak - I am always the girl who has to say sorry the 12 ounce fillet is MINE!!

FrogMarch

Sala wrote: »

I am shocked to hear some men still order their dates food!

Does that actually happen though? That doesn't seem to be an attempt at chivalry at all. It strikes me as controlling and borderline abusive!

msg11

FrogMarch wrote: »

Does that actually happen though? That doesn't seem to be an attempt at chivalry at all. It strikes me as controlling and borderline abusive!

I would agree, I wouldn't attempt to order anyones food. Why would you even want to?

As for the women drinking pints, don't get that either. It's larger or what ever drink and it is only a glass to hold the drink. What's the problem? I think anyone who thinks it is manly needs to get over it.

Star Lord

jackofalltrades wrote: »

Could you give an example of a gesture thats meaning has changed?

The above example of ordering food etc... 'back in the day' would have been perceived as being the polite thing to do, whereas now it'd be somewhat rude. The only exception to that I think is where you're a couple, you've discussed what you're having, and you're both getting the same thing.

MissFlitworth

FrogMarch wrote: »

Does that actually happen though? That doesn't seem to be an attempt at chivalry at all. It strikes me as controlling and borderline abusive!

I was out for dinner in London a couple of years ago with an American buddy & a couple of her friends from home. The sole guy at the table did a bit of a survey as to the kind of thing people would like to eat and then ordered for the table. It was pure odd. He also ordered far too little food (oink) and I ended up sneaking off for a bagel