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Prison officer killed in suspect dissident ambush

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    #182
    .jacksparrow.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,428 ✭✭✭.jacksparrow.


    WileyCoyote wrote: »
    Yes I'm going to presume that the organized crime gang that have been shooting and planting bombs in the recent past are responsible until someone shows me different.

    Not the other organised crime gang who threw bottles and stones at kids as young as 4 2 years ago,all because of the route the kids took to school?

    Ye I think ill hold off blaming anyone just yet.


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    #183
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,791 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    .jacksparrow. wrote: »
    ...nonetheless it is a idiotic thing to happen.
    Not idiotic. Evil, despicable and reprehensible.

    "Idiotic" makes it sound like some klutz left a bomb outside a school by accident, and if he was a bit more careful where he left his bombs, wouldn't it all be grand?
    Are you gonna presume its dissident republicans without any evidence or source?
    Yeah, it would be deeply unfair to assume that dissident republicans could have such a callous disregard for innocent life.


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    #184
    Mr.Micro
    Registered Users Posts: 5,336 ✭✭✭Mr.Micro


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Not idiotic. Evil, despicable and reprehensible.

    "Idiotic" makes it sound like some klutz left a bomb outside a school by accident, and if he was a bit more careful where he left his bombs, wouldn't it all be grand? Yeah, it would be deeply unfair to assume that dissident republicans could have such a callous disregard for innocent life.

    It would appear that some individuals, assuming its the new IRA will do anything to start up the trouble in NI again. How can anybody in their right mind support such creatures, I will not deem to call them human or even insult animals?


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    #185
    GRMA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,417 ✭✭✭GRMA


    I think there is more to be gained from examining their motivations and grievances and perhaps, where practicable, remove the reasons for their actions than just condemning them in increasingly more damning and extravagant ways.


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    #186
    Mr.Micro
    Registered Users Posts: 5,336 ✭✭✭Mr.Micro


    GRMA wrote: »
    I think there is more to be gained from examining their motivations and grievances and perhaps, where practicable, remove the reasons for their actions than just condemning them in increasingly more damning and extravagant ways.

    Like the grievances everybody has in life , be they prisoners, poor, old or young. Most people do not ever resort to murders or plant bombs etc to air their grievances. Too much lip service has been paid to the men of violence, many who think that democracy and all its faults is too harsh. Tough.... join the rest of us.


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    #187
    GRMA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,417 ✭✭✭GRMA


    I'm sure that's a massive consolation to Mr Blacks family, a man who's death could have been easily prevented. That's whats the worst thing about this, it could be seen coming from a mile off. People have been warning, even on this forum, over the past 12 months about the worrying escalation of things in the jail and that something needed to be done to defuse the situation and avoid this horrible eventuality. But they have been ignored. These people can't be condemned away. But if you remove some of the motivations they have, such as in the jail, things can be kept to an absolute minimum. Remember the prison agreed to changes which were highlighted at the time by the powers that be as a wonderful move:
    “The welfare, safety and security of both staff and prisoners were central to the discussions and I’m pleased that an agreement has been reached which allows for revised arrangements and procedures, but in no way dilutes the security of the prison or those who work and live there,” Justice Minister David Ford said.

    Thats what he said about the agreement, but the PO's and others decided to scrap it almost immediately, due to pure vindictiveness and intransigence.


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    #188
    .jacksparrow.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,428 ✭✭✭.jacksparrow.


    Mr.Micro wrote: »

    Like the grievances everybody has in life , be they prisoners, poor, old or young. Most people do not ever resort to murders or plant bombs etc to air their grievances. Too much lip service has been paid to the men of violence, many who think that democracy and all its faults is too harsh. Tough.... join the rest of us.
    Tell that to the iraqis or afghans,or even vietnamnese who died innocently because the UK or the USA had personal or hidden motives.

    These countries have blood on their hands a million times over.


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    #189
    Mr.Micro
    Registered Users Posts: 5,336 ✭✭✭Mr.Micro


    .jacksparrow. wrote: »
    Tell that to the iraqis or afghans,or even vietnamnese who died innocently because the UK or the USA had personal or hidden motives.

    These countries have blood on their hands k million times over.

    Not quite sure what any of that has to do with this thread tbh.


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    #190
    .jacksparrow.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,428 ✭✭✭.jacksparrow.


    Mr.Micro wrote: »

    Not quite sure what any of that has to do with this thread tbh.

    You said most people don't resort to violence if they have differences etc,I'm merely pointing out these wars where millions have died,which illustrates a lot of people do actually resort to violence to air theirdifferences,the world over.

    And these countries practice democracy,something you mentioned.


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    #191
    Mr.Micro
    Registered Users Posts: 5,336 ✭✭✭Mr.Micro


    .jacksparrow. wrote: »
    You said most people don't resort to violence if they have differences etc,I'm merely pointing out these wars where millions have died,which illustrates a lot of people do actually resort to violence to air theirdifferences,the world over.

    And these countries practice democracy,something you mentioned.

    Governments are a different matter and often do as they will, once elected, without or without the will of the people. Blair used every trick in the book to have his war and Bush was going no matter what.

    Its the citizens who do not, or cannot under the law, commit or use violence or murder to air their grievances, and only use whatever adequate redress to try and solve their complaints.


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    #192
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,791 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    GRMA wrote: »
    These people can't be condemned away. But if you remove some of the motivations they have, such as in the jail, things can be kept to an absolute minimum.
    ...aaand, we're off with the "I don't agree with their methods but if we just give them whatever they want, maybe they'll stop terrorising us" weasel words.

    It's straight out of the organised crime "you got a nice family, be a shame if anything happened to them" protection racket playbook.


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    #193
    gallag
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,355 ✭✭✭gallag


    Jack sparrow and grma, at this point surely you will not deny supporting the dissidents and their actions? Or will you still be to cowardly to admit your believes. Every post you guys make is in support or excusing their actions, or diverting the blame etc even to the point of saying "give them what they want or suffer the consequences" you even know their actions are scummy and wrong, that's why you can't admit your support. Thankfully you are insignificant, and these dissidents will soon fade out. They are not wanted by any section of the community and the look on their wee faces when the were protesting outside the meeting between the lower falls residents and the police service of N.Ireland about steeping up security to protect the area and it's people was priceless.


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    #194
    GRMA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,417 ✭✭✭GRMA


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    ...aaand, we're off with the "I don't agree with their methods but if we just give them whatever they want, maybe they'll stop terrorising us" weasel words.

    It's straight out of the organised crime "you got a nice family, be a shame if anything happened to them" protection racket playbook.
    Leave that sh!te out.

    It makes perfect sense to do everything possible to starve these people of support and propaganda, don't you agree? Running the prison better, the way that was agreed, read how the justice minister described it, would have stopped this from happening.

    Im not saying anything drastic, it's small simple things.


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    #195
    Mr.Micro
    Registered Users Posts: 5,336 ✭✭✭Mr.Micro


    GRMA wrote: »
    Leave that sh!te out.

    It makes perfect sense to do everything possible to starve these people of support and propaganda, don't you agree? Running the prison better, the way that was agreed, read how the justice minister described it, would have stopped this from happening.

    Im not saying anything drastic, it's small simple things.

    Where does society draw the line with appeasement for so called political prisoners.... or else.


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    #196
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,791 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    GRMA wrote: »
    Leave that sh!te out.
    Um, no. I'm calling it as I see it. If you want to pretend there's something noble about this particular gang of organised criminal psychopaths just because they wrap themselves in a green flag and spout the same rubbish cant that has been used to justify murder for the last century, feel free. I have no intention of buying into it.
    It makes perfect sense to do everything possible to starve these people of support and propaganda, don't you agree?
    Everything possible? No. It shouldn't be necessary to bribe people not to support murderers; anyone with a conscience should be able to reject everything they stand for without hesitation.
    Running the prison better, the way that was agreed, read how the justice minister described it, would have stopped this from happening.
    And the battered wife could have avoided her beating - this time - by having the dinner on the table thirty seconds earlier. Sure, it was wrong of the husband to hit her - but she should have known better.

    If the conditions in the prison are less than optimal, then they should be improved for reasons of humanity, not because some self-appointed vigilantes are demanding that it be done.

    The murder of a prison officer is completely inexcusable and unforgivable, and wheeling out the whole "it could have been prevented by pandering to terrorists" line is the sort of tacit support that allows the terrorists to continue to function. It's a wheedling excuse that's pretending not to be an excuse, and you can't claim that something is inexcusable while simultaneously excusing it.


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    #197
    gallag
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,355 ✭✭✭gallag


    GRMA wrote: »
    I've reported your comment because frankly that's a very offensive thing you've said, not to mention defamatory. You are of course, wrong. I don't support them.
    But you obviously do, I present all of your posts as evidence to support my claim.


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    #198
    gallag
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,355 ✭✭✭gallag


    I was wondering, Can Sinn Fein/IRA control these gangsters? Was just wondering because I seen on the news Sinn Fein did not seem happy they were using the IRA name? Are the drug dealers/dissidents to big? Is Sinn Fein/IRA toothless?


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    #199
    the_syco
    Registered Users Posts: 37,295 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    In wonder if the "new IRA" was given the blessing from PIRA, or if they're just RIRA under a new name with a few extra people? If they didn't get PIRA's blessing, and are using the name as it sounds cool, I can see some of them getting warned.

    I doubt that SF will want to be seen as representing the new IRA, as they've been trying to look like politicians and not terrorists for the past 13 years.

    As for the killing of the prison officer; I say it will help in the groups aim of having more UK soldiers in NI.


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    #200
    GRMA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,417 ✭✭✭GRMA


    the_syco wrote: »
    In wonder if the "new IRA" was given the blessing from PIRA, or if they're just RIRA under a new name with a few extra people? If they didn't get PIRA's blessing, and are using the name as it sounds cool, I can see some of them getting warned.

    I doubt that SF will want to be seen as representing the new IRA, as they've been trying to look like politicians and not terrorists for the past 13 years.

    As for the killing of the prison officer; I say it will help in the groups aim of having more UK soldiers in NI.

    That.

    They amalgamated with RAAD and a few independents apparently.


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    #201
    Crooked Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 5,678 ✭✭✭Crooked Jack


    gallag wrote: »
    I was wondering, Can Sinn Fein/IRA control these gangsters? Was just wondering because I seen on the news Sinn Fein did not seem happy they were using the IRA name? Are the drug dealers/dissidents to big? Is Sinn Fein/IRA toothless?

    the IRA hasnt existed as a military force since 2005. "sinn fein/IRA" has never existed.
    It never ceases to amaze me how laughably childish people can be when it comes to these issues. Nearly 13 years on and people like you are still trying to score points. grow up


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    #202
    GRMA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,417 ✭✭✭GRMA


    Mr.Micro wrote: »
    Where does society draw the line with appeasement for so called political prisoners.... or else.
    Should be treated the way they are in the south... or let me guess, Shatter thinks there is something noble about them


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    #203
    .jacksparrow.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,428 ✭✭✭.jacksparrow.


    gallag wrote: »
    Jack sparrow and grma, at this point surely you will not deny supporting the dissidents and their actions? Or will you still be to cowardly to admit your believes. Every post you guys make is in support or excusing their actions, or diverting the blame etc even to the point of saying "give them what they want or suffer the consequences" you even know their actions are scummy and wrong, that's why you can't admit your support. Thankfully you are insignificant, and these dissidents will soon fade out. They are not wanted by any section of the community and the look on their wee faces when the were protesting outside the meeting between the lower falls residents and the police service of N.Ireland about steeping up security to protect the area and it's people was priceless.

    How dare you.I like the next person think the whole thing is pointless and noone should be killed or dying.

    My whole point is there are other issues up the north which is causing all this,but noone is addressing these,until they are it will continue,its the same mistakes been done over again.

    Loyalists are waiting to make a comeback as Keith suggested here many times,they are definitely not helping things by attacking innocent people in the short strand last year,their marches and attacking school children.

    But no arrests has been made on their side,this is my point,no wonder these lunatics are killing people.

    I no way support them simple as.


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    #204
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,791 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    GRMA wrote: »
    fúck off with that, I already said they were animals for god's sake.
    Yeah, I've never been terribly convinced by the "I don't support them but we should give them what they want" line of argument, I'm afraid.


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    #205
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    gallag wrote: »
    I was wondering, Can Sinn Fein/IRA control these gangsters? Was just wondering because I seen on the news Sinn Fein did not seem happy they were using the IRA name? Are the drug dealers/dissidents to big? Is Sinn Fein/IRA toothless?

    The ironing, the ironing! The poster wants SF/IRA to control the dissidents because ordinary law and order has failed. :eek: Fecking brilliant!


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    #206
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Yeah, I've never been terribly convinced by the "I don't support them but we should give them what they want" line of argument, I'm afraid.

    What does it matter to you if people 'support' them or not? They exist, the problem needs to be dealt with, whether a few on the internet support them or not, how does it further your particular argument/point of view to label others with a different argument/point of view?


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    #207
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,791 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    What does it matter to you if people 'support' them or not?
    Why doesn't it matter to you? You don't think it makes any difference whether or not people think that we should try to appease terrorists by acceding to their demands?

    You don't buy into the bizarrely naive idea that if you give the terrorists what they're asking for today, they will magically decide not to murder people in order to get what they want tomorrow?

    You don't see a problem with the mealy-mouthed "I don't support them, but it's someone else's fault that they're murdering people" quasi-criticism? You don't see that it's precisely that sort of ambivalence that allows them to continue to function?


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    #208
    .jacksparrow.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,428 ✭✭✭.jacksparrow.


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Why doesn't it matter to you? You don't think it makes any difference whether or not people think that we should try to appease terrorists by acceding to their demands?

    You don't buy into the bizarrely naive idea that if you give the terrorists what they're asking for today, they will magically decide not to murder people in order to get what they want tomorrow?

    You don't see a problem with the mealy-mouthed "I don't support them, but it's someone else's fault that they're murdering people" quasi-criticism? You don't see that it's precisely that sort of ambivalence that allows them to continue to function?

    Well it worked with the pira.


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    #209
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,791 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    .jacksparrow. wrote: »
    Well it worked with the pira.
    I wonder how sympathetic you'd be to the aims of loyalist terrorists, if the roles were reversed.


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    #210
    .jacksparrow.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,428 ✭✭✭.jacksparrow.


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    I wonder how sympathetic you'd be to the aims of loyalist terrorists, if the roles were reversed.

    Sympathy?you think I have sympathy for these groups.

    Ah with that I'm out.


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    #211
    GRMA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,417 ✭✭✭GRMA


    If the jail was run as was agreed Black wouldn't be dead. that's the bottom line, things have been escalating worryingly and nothing was done. Now people like oscarbravo might be able to sit back in moral superiority but one of the people on the frontline is dead because of this. it was obvious that this would happen .
    The situation in the jail could have easily been resolved, its not as if they were demanding keys to the place. In fact the agreement falls far short of how things are in portlaoise. Remember they already agreed to it so implementing it is hardly a massive capitulation. I had hoped that some steps would be taken in light of what's happened to make sure it doesn't happen again, doesn't look like it though.

    And how dare you oscarbravo say that I support these people or the horrible murder of Black. just because we don't agree it gives you no right to label me so, it's grossly offensive. You don't know me at all but let me tell you this, the work I've done over the past year of meeting anti gfa Republicans and arguing the merits of Democratic process and of the gfa, often to people who'd regard me as a traitor or an anti Republican has done far far more good than your condemnations and high moral horse position on an internet forum.

    So yeah, I don't like to be accused of supporting dissident Republicans or the murders they carry out so kindly cease falsely labeling me so, ok?


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