€4 million to Uganda?

Show Time

Nodin wrote: »

You have to be a "holy joe" to give a **** about humanity in general? Thats news to me.

You still have not apologised for calling me a racist.:rolleyes:

mikeym

We give a country like Uganda millions of euros of tax payers money and weres our thanks.

Its a fuping disgrace, not many taxpayers would have known how much we gave over the years to corrupt countries like Uganda if this hadnt came out.

If Uganda get the rest of the money we might aswell not pay tax to fund corrupt Ugandan government officals :mad:

I wonder are the Greeks are as stupid as us to be giving away free money.

lightspeed

telecaster wrote: »

At the risk of paraphrasing the Boromir meme....one does not simply oust a totalitarian military government.

From Human Rights Watch: "The country’s security forces regularly use lethal force, especially during political demonstrations. Opposition politicians, their supporters, and some journalists face harassment, beatings, and arrest. The Ugandan military, despite efforts by key donors countries to ‘professionalize’ them, has yet to address the severe due process violations in military courts – especially the prosecution of civilians, who should be tried in civilian courts. Torture in detention is endemic, with torturers rarely brought to justice. Access to healthcare and education remains a serious problem. Uganda’s notorious Anti-Homosexuality Bill, which proposes the death penalty for some consensual same-sex activities, could still be voted on, threatening the freedom of Uganda’s LGBT community."

The country is not long out of civil war. To suggest that it scrap military spend is utterly naive. There are many heavily armed non-govt actors in the region. If Uganda did not spend on military its government would be overthrown by another undemocratic military regime.

Sanctions are moral tokenism and invariably hurt the wrong people.

The relativism of 'Irish babies are hungry' is bizarre. Conditions in Uganda are from an altogether different paradigm of experience. Children in Ireland are not routinely kidnapped, mutilated, forced in to armed gangs, deprived of education. Yes Ireland has social problems - but turning off an international aid programme is not going to cure any of them. There are social and poverty traps here, and agencies here are funded to deal with them.

But why is the above any business of the people of Ireland?
Theres a lot of hungry people in North Korea and they also have corruption and a dictator and spend a lot of money on military equipment.

There are more Garda stations closing in this country and a lot more hardship to come. By the above logic we should be making sure Kim Jong and likes are looked after despite the hardship of the Irish people.
If you believe in democracy tell me why its democratic that we have never had a referendum on this issue?

Show Time

lightspeed wrote: »

But why is the above any business of the people of Ireland?
Theres a lot of hungry people in North Korea and they also have corruption and a dictator and spend a lot of money on military equipment.

There are more Garda stations closing in this country and a lot more hardship to come. By the above logic we should be making sure Kim Jong and likes are looked after despite the hardship of the Irish people.
If you believe in democracy tell me why its democratic that we have never had a referendum on this issue?

One or two posters on here would consider a referendum an act of racism.;)

Chinasea

Show Time wrote: »

Cut the holy joe stuff it won't work with me.

So, am I to assume you think it OK we let the starving mother and baby starve to death?

Show Time

Chinasea wrote: »

So, am I to assume you think it OK we let the starving mother and baby starve to death?

How much more money will have to be wasted before they are all no longer starving??

telecaster

lightspeed wrote: »

But why is the above any business of the people of Ireland?

Little happens in isolation. My belief is that as world citizens we are all on the one ship, if it goes down we all go down with it.

So too, if Ireland ever again found itself again in the most dire need I hope that such humanity would be reciprocated by those more able to help.

There are many different levels of crises. I'm sure most Ugandans would gladly swap their problems for ours.

lightspeed wrote: »

Theres a lot of hungry people in North Korea and they also have corruption and a dictator and spend a lot of money on military equipment.

There are more Garda stations closing in this country and a lot more hardship to come. By the above logic we should be making sure Kim Jong and likes are looked after despite the hardship of the Irish people.

I don't know why you're bringing North Korea in to it. It's a desolate and paranoid place as best I understand, and victim of a recent and unnecessary famine. There are some tentative signs that things will improve under the leadership of Kim Jong-Un, but the country remains isolated, and largely closed to the efforts of NGOs to assist.

What Garda stations closing has to do with it, I simply dont know. I expect overseas aid and policing are managed by separate departments of government and national budget.

I certainly don't propose funding corrupt regimes. The thrust of what I'm saying is that in the absence of a regime helping its own people then there is an instinct / desire / responsibility for some others to assist until that regime is changed in to one that serves the people rather than itself. Not everyone will feel that responsibility, but some do.

lightspeed wrote: »

If you believe in democracy tell me why its democratic that we have never had a referendum on this issue?

I believe we should have referendums on issues such as this. There should be far more consultation of the citizens about national policy - but thats a meander from the core of the discussion.

Though as a barometer of national feeling on the broad subject area, a recent MRBI poll has found that 80% of respondents were in favour of Ireland committing to targets of 0.7% of national income to be spent on overseas aid by 2015.

MaxSteele

Chinasea wrote: »

So, am I to assume you think it OK we let the starving mother and baby starve to death?

How is it our fault or responsibility that generations upon generations of africans have been too feckless and unable to look after themselves ?

If these mothers were in any way responsible, they wouldn't bring a child into their environment. How were neanderthals and the first men able to survive in just as bad or even worse conditions yet still thrive ?

How did Ugandans cope before colonialism ?

Nodin

Show Time wrote: »

You still have not apologised for calling me a racist.:rolleyes:

Given that the follow up to

Back in the old days kids use to have to bring a penny into school for the black babies and now they are all over here and still we are sending money out to them.

was

Best to let them all either learn how to farm or mine the land and if the natives are to lazy or stupid to even manage that than let them all die off and repopulate the lands with folks who are willing to do some work.

I'm not seeing any reason to.

dark crystal

Chinasea wrote: »

So, am I to assume you think it OK we let the starving mother and baby starve to death?

No one is saying that, so quite why you keep feeling the need to repeat yourself, I don't know.

We (and other countries) have been sending many millions in aid to Uganda for many years, yet the mothers and babies are still starving - now, what does that tell you?

Meanwhile, the Ugandan government are spending millions on arms and military aircraft and at least 4 million has found it's way into the Prime Minister's private bank account. Can you see a problem there? At all?

Do you think we should just continue sending aid, even when that aid is being misappropriated?

Chinasea

Show Time wrote: »

How much more money will have to be wasted before they are all no longer starving??

Still no answer to my question?

Show Time

Nodin wrote: »

Given that the follow up to



was



I'm not seeing any reason to.

None of the above is considered a racist comment.

If they were at this point i would be sitting out the next week on Boards.ie

So be the better man and say sorry it will do you the world of good to admit you were wrong.

Nodin

MaxSteele wrote: »

How is it our fault or responsibility that generations upon generations of africans have been too feckless and unable to look after themselves ?

......

Well done - you've dragged the tone even lower. No mean feat, considering. You're actually so clueless its hard to know where to begin.

Show Time

Nodin wrote: »

I consider them to be so - a deliberate skirting of overt racism.

Again that is your view which is wrong.


Now go ahead and be the better man and say sorry for insulting me.

Nodin

Show Time wrote: »

Again that is your view which is wrong.


Now go ahead and be the better man and say sorry for insulting me.

I call it like I see it. I see no evidence to the contrary.

Dr Turk Turkelton

Just read the last few pages of this thread and I see that it is now racist to complain about our government giving a slightly more corrupt goverment money to buy expensive toys!

Wow there is some seriously high horses itt.
Also I think some people need to google what racism really is and not just throw the word around willy nilly to score thanks.

cristoir

52 percent of Ugandans live below the international poverty line. 67 percent of the urban population live in slums. The average student teacher ration in rural schools is 1:72. There are 2.5 million orphans living in Uganda.

The comparison in this thread between Ireland and Uganda would be laughable if it wasn't so serious.

People mentioned that we shouldn't give aid to corrupt regimes. Social reform tends to follow economic development. It's a lot easier to get people demanding political reforms once they have a decent standard of living and crucially an education.

Some aid being mis-appropriated is not an argument for ending aid.

Nodin

Cuchulainn1. wrote: »

Just read the last few pages of this thread and I see that it is now racist to complain about our government giving a slightly more corrupt goverment money to buy expensive toys!
.....

Ye did? Where? A link would be nice.

telecaster

dark crystal wrote: »

We (and other countries) have been sending many millions in aid to Uganda for many years, yet the mothers and babies are still starving - now, what does that tell you?

It tells you that famine is not a financial issue.

It is not the chief problem in Uganda either.

The money mainly goes to developmental projects rather than to air-dropping bags of rice to the starving.

"Crisis response" and "development" are very different forms of aid.

Sufficient development will prevent crisies arising.

dark crystal

telecaster wrote: »

It tells you that famine is not a financial issue.

It is not the chief problem in Uganda either.

The money mainly goes to developmental projects rather than to air-dropping bags of rice to the starving.

"Crisis response" and "development" are very different forms of aid.

Sufficient development will prevent crisies arising.

But has there been sufficient enough development in Uganda though?

Look, I have no objections to overseas aid. We all have a responsibility towards making the world a better place.

HOWEVER...

There should be stringent guidelines as to how the aid is appropriated. If these guidelines are not met, funding should be halted until the government agrees to the targets set out to them by those trying to help the citizens of their country, be it education, healthcare, water supply, agriculture, housing or whatever else. Using this money to buy arms, military aircraft, or to siphon money into personal accounts should never be tolerated.

We simply cannot afford to continue funding countries who are misspending that money, especially when our own citizens are suffering. This is just commonsense I would have thought.

Show Time

Nodin wrote: »

Ye did? Where? A link would be nice.

I hope the fall is not to high from that horse you are on.;)

planetX

telecaster wrote: »

From Human Rights Watch: "The country’s security forces regularly use lethal force, especially during political demonstrations. Opposition politicians, their supporters, and some journalists face harassment, beatings, and arrest. The Ugandan military, despite efforts by key donors countries to ‘professionalize’ them, has yet to address the severe due process violations in military courts – especially the prosecution of civilians, who should be tried in civilian courts. Torture in detention is endemic, with torturers rarely brought to justice. Access to healthcare and education remains a serious problem. Uganda’s notorious Anti-Homosexuality Bill, which proposes the death penalty for some consensual same-sex activities, could still be voted on, threatening the freedom of Uganda’s LGBT community."

Aren't the above exactly why we shouldn't be giving that money? It's like giving them the nod of approval.

lightspeed

telecaster wrote: »

Little happens in isolation. My belief is that as world citizens we are all on the one ship, if it goes down we all go down with it.

So too, if Ireland ever again found itself again in the most dire need I hope that such humanity would be reciprocated by those more able to help.

There are many different levels of crises. I'm sure most Ugandans would gladly swap their problems for ours.



I don't know why you're bringing North Korea in to it. It's a desolate and paranoid place as best I understand, and victim of a recent and unnecessary famine. There are some tentative signs that things will improve under the leadership of Kim Jong-Un, but the country remains isolated, and largely closed to the efforts of NGOs to assist.

What Garda stations closing has to do with it, I simply dont know. I expect overseas aid and policing are managed by separate departments of government and national budget.

I certainly don't propose funding corrupt regimes. The thrust of what I'm saying is that in the absence of a regime helping its own people then there is an instinct / desire / responsibility for some others to assist until that regime is changed in to one that serves the people rather than itself. Not everyone will feel that responsibility, but some do.




I believe we should have referendums on issues such as this. There should be far more consultation of the citizens about national policy - but thats a meander from the core of the discussion.

Though as a barometer of national feeling on the broad subject area, a recent MRBI poll has found that 80% of respondents were in favour of Ireland committing to targets of 0.7% of national income to be spent on overseas aid by 2015.

1) There is just as much reason to waste money in North Korea than in Africa.
2) A survey is in no way representative of the democratic will of the people. Sure you could ask people on the street a yes or no answer on the issue. However, did the people conducting this survey point out the severity of both the corruption within these countries and the severity of the cuts we are making here as they were asking if we should continue to donate money abroad to Africa as we borrow money from Germany and the likes to pay off our own debt?

If not then i reckon the survey is inaccurate. I highly doubt that people would be happy to see our health service and education suffer, crime rising as we cant afford to police the country all at the same time we donate millions abroad to fund warlords in foreign countries.

I dont understand why you dont understand that I see people in Ireland suffering, whilst we are borrowing money to donate to foreign corrupt countries.
why cant you figure why myself and many other people in this country have a problem with above?

Its pure propaganda and lies to suggest that more money helps Africa become a stable country when after all these years of shovelling billions has amounted to nothing more than just more corruption and war. That is not an opinion, it is a fact whether is an inconvenient or not.
If were not giving these corrupt governments money maybe there would have been an African spring and the African people would put a real democracy in place that actually held corrupt leaders to account. Just like with Saudi Arabia, without the oil money there would have been proper reform there a long time ago. But that cant happen until the people themselves are put in a position whether they have to make it happen. We are not fixing a problem of poverty, we are just fuelling decades of corruption to ensure it can continue.

telecaster

dark crystal wrote: »

But has there been sufficient enough development in Uganda though?

Evidently not

dark crystal wrote: »

There should be stringent guidelines as to how the aid is appropriated. If these guidelines are not met, funding should be halted until the government agrees to the targets set out to them by those trying to help the citizens of their country, be it education, healthcare, water supply, agriculture, housing or whatever else. Using this money to buy arms, military aircraft, or to siphon money into personal accounts should never be tolerated.

I agree. It's difficult within the scope of a national budget to say "Bundle A" of money, was used to buy "Bundle B" of goods. Countries in receipt of aid will claim that they are incumbent to develop their military as well as their society if only to protect the citizens. I'm no defender of military expenditure incidentally, its an appalling waste of funds globally - not just in terms of aid and development.

dark crystal wrote: »

We simply cannot afford to continue funding countries who are misspending that money, especially when our own citizens are suffering. This is just commonsense I would have thought.

It's important to remember that funding overseas aid has not put Ireland in the economic position that it now finds itself in, and continuing to fund overseas aid will have very little influence in the broad picture of how Ireland's economy will fare in the coming decades.

planetX wrote: »

Aren't the above exactly why we shouldn't be giving that money? It's like giving them the nod of approval.

That's a valid question. But as I posted earlier, aid is not an endorsement of a regime. Aid and funding towards development is increasingly managed on a 'project' basis where the Irish govt grants funds for a specific project to be embarked upon, supplemented or supported. This is frequently done through Irish NGOs or increasingly in tandem with NGOs based in the recepient country - thereby short circuiting the path where the corrupt regime skims or pockets the aid.

It is imperative to note that this particular incident of the vanishing Eur 4 million was discovered through the office of the Ugandan Auditor General. This position is partly funded by Irish Aid, and is perhaps indicative of how good governance can be instilled through well targetted support. Without the funding of this position the kleptocracy would perhaps go unquestioned and unchallenged.

lightspeed wrote: »

1) There is just as much reason to waste money in North Korea than in Africa.

Agreed, but you'll find NGOs have great difficulty accessing North Korea.

lightspeed wrote: »

2) A survey is in no way representative of the democratic will of the people. Sure you could ask people on the street a yes or no answer on the issue. However, did the people conducting this survey point out the severity of both the corruption within these countries and the severity of the cuts we are making here as they were asking if we should continue to donate money abroad to Africa as we borrow money from Germany and the likes to pay off our own debt?

A survey is imperfect testimony I fully admit, but in the absence of a referrendum (which again I would endorse) its the best I can do in terms of presenting a broader opinion than my own. All surveys / polls are flawed.

lightspeed wrote: »

I dont understand why you dont understand that I see people in Ireland suffering, whilst we are borrowing money to donate to foreign corrupt countries.
why cant you figure why myself and many other people in this country have a problem with above?

I can figure it. I can, to a point, understand it. I respectfully disagree with it however.

Ireland would be borrowing money whether an overseas aid programme existed or not. Irish borrowings are not specifically used to donate to developing countries - thats too simplistic, and I'm sure you know that.

Does every citizen who takes out a loan, then stop buying raffle tickets, girl scout cookies or sponsoring parachutists? Of course not, you can service debt while still contributing within your budget to those who may be in greater need.

From a more political point of view, I expect it would be viewed in a very bad light internationally if Ireland didn't 'pay it forward' a little having being recepient of much goodwill and rate-friendly investment from stronger nations in recent decades.

I would hope there's more to Ireland's aid policy than optics and tokenism but I'm not naive enough to think its not a factor.

lightspeed wrote: »

Its pure propaganda and lies to suggest that more money helps Africa become a stable country when after all these years of shovelling billions has amounted to nothing more than just more corruption and war. That is not an opinion, it is a fact whether is an inconvenient or not.

There are a lot of success stories at different levels across Africa (which is a continent, not a country as you have stated). You can read some examples of how projects have been effective in this link.

Without a test 'normal' you cant logically say what impact aid did or did not have, your conclusion is speculative and not factual as you claim.

lightspeed

http://files.transparency.org/content/download/101/407/file/2011_CPI_EN.pdf

http://cpi.transparency.org/cpi2011/results/

Judging from the above reports, its seems pretty factual to say that there are a lot of corrupt countries in Africa despite any economic progression across the continent.

All the money pumped into Africa for so many years and so much liitle progress is ridiculous.

Why do the government give any foreign aid if there are charities like Goal and Concern already in existence for people who want to give these people money?

For the people in that survey who agree with giving aid to foreign countries, could we not just set up a scheme similar to VHI except with Concern or Goal where those people are taxed more to fund these other countries?

So rather than being run by the Irish government, people could volunteer their taxes to fund these other countries. If as many people as are in the survey like their taxes going towards foreign corrupt countries, then surely these countries would still be getting around the same amount of aid from the Irish people?

donegal_road

it is about oil

K-9

Africa will eventally get Foreign investment like China and the rest of the Far East and Brazil. Economies classed as third world will emerge and become the emerging countries like those did. Once China and Brazil become "too expensive"to manufacture goods corporations will look to more African countries.

passarellaie

It appears that we are spending 700 million on foreign aid.Imagine with 50,000 a year emigrating,mothers worrying about feeding their kids and these clowns in Dublin are sending 700 MILLION of our money on foreign aid.
Truly we need a taxpayers strike

Japer

passarellaie wrote: »

It appears that we are spending 700 million on foreign aid.Imagine with 50,000 a year emigrating,mothers worrying about feeding their kids and these clowns in Dublin are sending 700 MILLION of our money on foreign aid.
Truly we need a taxpayers strike

+1. What is sickening as well is the do-gooders working for some of these "charities" getting paid 60,000 and 80,000 a year, plus pension.

passarellaie

Japer wrote: »

+1. What is sickening as well is the do-gooders working for some of these "charities" getting paid 60,000 and 80,000 a year, plus pension.

Exactly just another do gooder self justification fraud screwing the real workers who pay for everything