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Children penalised for the actions of parents

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    #152
    IvySlayer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,187 ✭✭✭✭IvySlayer


    Does anyone else find it extremely hypocritical that some people expect the Government to pay for all their childs education when they won't pay a simple charge themselves?


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    #153
    Peanut2011
    Registered Users Posts: 1,001 ✭✭✭Peanut2011


    IvySlayer wrote: »
    Does anyone else find it extremely hypocritical that some people expect the Government to pay for all their childs education when they won't pay a simple charge themselves?


    Does anyone else find it extremely hypocritical that government is paying their advisers over the salary cap and the use of government jet for every little thing while they have no money and expect me to foot the bill?


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    #154
    Skylinehead
    Registered Users Posts: 11,690 ✭✭✭✭Skylinehead


    Peanut2011 wrote: »
    Absolutely right, but as a citizen of this state he should be held under same standard as the rest of us. So if he still gets payment from state coffers should he not be made provide proof he paid his taxes.

    Hasn't Wallace settled with the government? So in their eyes he's clear, whatever the general public thinks. And we can't just keep bringing him, or Bertie etc, into every government-related thread for no reason other than to say "He gets 45k from the government so why should I have to pay my taxes?".


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    #155
    Conar
    Registered Users Posts: 1,604 ✭✭✭Conar


    Fenian Army wrote: »
    you are not paying your way, but the way of vulture capitalists, bondholders, speculators and gamblers!

    Well this is where we shall have to agree to disagree.
    What's happened has happened and unless people want to go back to bartering we're signed up to modern capitalism for the foreseeable future. So we must pay our debts. Our overspending is sinking us quicker than our bank debts from what I have read so we need to make cuts and/or raise taxes.
    I think we should all pay more income tax but that's for another thread.

    As was mentioned above by someone quite rightly, we should be more worried about the vulnerable people being hit by cuts than people who have a moral stand with the government over €100.


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    #156
    IvySlayer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,187 ✭✭✭✭IvySlayer


    Peanut2011 wrote: »
    Does anyone else find it extremely hypocritical that government is paying their advisers over the salary cap and the use of government jet for every little thing while they have no money and expect me to foot the bill?

    That is not the debate in question.


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    #157
    Peanut2011
    Registered Users Posts: 1,001 ✭✭✭Peanut2011


    Skylinehead wrote: »
    Hasn't Wallace settled with the government? So in their eyes he's clear, whatever the general public thinks. And we can't just keep bringing him, or Bertie etc, into every government-related thread for no reason other than to say "He gets 45k from the government so why should I have to pay my taxes?".

    Has he settled?? Don't remember seeing that in Gazette? He did not pay it did he?

    I am sure there are others in there, the whole system is full of crooks. When I see them living in the real world I will agree to paying more.

    Why should I be footing their comfy lifestyle when they have done nothing to help this country.


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    #158
    Ironé
    Registered Users Posts: 260 ✭✭Ironé


    Biggins wrote: »
    :rolleyes:


    Many of us are, in many ways.
    In fact everyone that buys something in this state if it has a VAT or tax on it, is!

    I suppose I meant to go out and volunteer your time to better develop your community - do something about the economy at a local level to help get this country back on it's feet regardless of who put it there.
    Biggins wrote: »
    The household charge is only NOW being used as a stick to punish offspring for the action of their elders!
    Shame on those doing it.

    If this was another past era, they might have been dragged out of their beds and put up against a wall for their actions!

    What in God's name are you talking about? It's a fee to help the country out of the massive deficit we are in. We're in the sh*t - how do people expect to get out of this mess with out making sacrifices? Saying it wasn't my fault still doesn't change that fact.


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    #159
    Peanut2011
    Registered Users Posts: 1,001 ✭✭✭Peanut2011


    IvySlayer wrote: »
    Does anyone else find it extremely hypocritical that some people expect the Government to pay for all their childs education when they won't pay a simple charge themselves?
    IvySlayer wrote: »
    That is not the debate in question.


    The charge is not for the child's education so by bringing that question in you have widened the debate. Have you not?

    My question is just as valid as yours!


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    #160
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    If the state wishes to charge me money direct for an application for any one of my legal separate entity offspring, they are free to do so.

    If I don't pay up for that direct service, I deserve what I get - I'm applying for a small portion of national state collected funds after all.

    This simply latest pitiful, bitter tactic - and thats just what it is now - a tactic - to extort by one means or another (your dole, direct from your wages, etc, tracking you down through your esb/gas/etc bills...) every last cent from those that already cannot afford many things.
    ...After all, if your applying for such a grant, your doing so BECAUSE your possibly on an extreme financial tightrope already!

    Its just another low-down, one more dirty tactic to put people backs against a wall and screw them even more in extortion!
    Pay up or your children suffer!

    Why not just be plain about it and put a fcuking gun to my head you government bastards!


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    #161
    JRant
    Registered Users Posts: 12,899 ✭✭✭✭JRant


    Ironé wrote: »
    Love the use of the word 'children' in this post - they are not children - they are adults :rolleyes:

    I think it's a great move by Clare County Council. If you as a parent are applying for a grant from the county council for a member of your family yet have not paid a fee owed to them (for a measily 100 euros a year) then of course they are entitled to request it.

    I work with a voluntary community group and can really see how budgets have been slashed in the county council here. Services are being withdrawn left right and centre. It's really depressing. We can either let our communities go to crap (that'll show the 'bankers') or stand together - get out and volunteer, make a contribution.

    You may not agree with the charge but that's the joys of a democracy you can vote for someone else at the next election. Maybe they'll have a better idea of how to solve the mess we are in. Who created the mess is a topic for another thread but it's here and we aren't going to get out of it by simply complaining. Part of being a citizen is obeying the laws, paying taxes and fees like this. We'll get nowhere if there isn't some sense of civil responsibility. This is our country, these are our taxes and these are our county councils.

    I'm reading today about how much I am going to have to pay for the property tax and it is depressing reading. But I'll pay it cause that's what being an Irish citizen is about. But come the next election I will be very interested to hear what the different parties will be offering.

    Major flaw in that arguement. The student, not the parent, applies for the grant. The local CoCo then want to know what they spent their last fiver on. The forms are huge and very complicated but nowhere in it does it state the need for a household tax clearance certificate, simples.

    I applaud you for volunteering and have done my own bit for the community. However I disagree wholeheartedly that a good citizen should just lie down and except every charge/fee/tax thrown at them. Having seen firsthand the savage cutting of local services to vunerable sections of society why should we continue to pay into some central government fund when this money is being pilfered by certain protected entities?
    Our communities are being let go to sh*te, regardless of whether one pays this charge or not, don't be so naive to think that if everyobe pays up all will be rosy in the garden.

    "Well, yeah, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man"



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    #162
    Akrasia
    Registered Users Posts: 22,313 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Ironé wrote: »
    I suppose I meant to go out and volunteer your time to better develop your community - do something about the economy at a local level to help get this country back on it's feet regardless of who put it there.



    What in God's name are you talking about? It's a fee to help the country out of the massive deficit we are in. We're in the sh*t - how do people expect to get out of this mess with out making sacrifices? Saying it wasn't my fault still doesn't change that fact.

    How is increasing taxes in a recession supposed to get us out of this mess?

    We're in a hole and we're just digging ourselves in deeper.


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    #163
    Peanut2011
    Registered Users Posts: 1,001 ✭✭✭Peanut2011


    Ironé wrote: »
    What in God's name are you talking about? It's a fee to help the country out of the massive deficit we are in. We're in the sh*t - how do people expect to get out of this mess with out making sacrifices? Saying it wasn't my fault still doesn't change that fact.

    Well maybe the start could be to have the government morons balance what they spend and where and tighten the budgets they have. Also eliminating loads of "self paying perks" would save a lot of money.

    That could be a start.

    The part in bold, do you consider paying Lord Mayor of Cork over €160k if I remember correctly a good use of money?

    If things like this were addressed first they would have a lot better response from the people on anything else they tried to do.


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    #164
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Ironé wrote: »
    ...It's a fee to help the country out of the massive deficit we are in. We're in the sh*t - how do people expect to get out of this mess with out making sacrifices? Saying it wasn't my fault still doesn't change that fact.

    O' its now a "fee" to help a country bail out?

    There was me thinking the council was using the late invented excuse now that it was for processing an application!


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    #165
    Valetta
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,611 ✭✭✭Valetta


    Peanut2011 wrote: »
    Has he settled?? Don't remember seeing that in Gazette? He did not pay it did he?

    I am sure there are others in there, the whole system is full of crooks. When I see them living in the real world I will agree to paying more.

    Why should I be footing their comfy lifestyle when they have done nothing to help this country.

    You have now gone from implying that Mick Wallace was defaulting on taxes, to saying that he has done something illegal as a company director, to generally waffling about the whole system being full of crooks.

    I have said why I support Clare Co. Co. in what they are doing.

    Nobody should be in receipt of taxpayers money if they are not paying their own taxes.


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    #166
    Mrs Garth Brooks
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,865 ✭✭✭Mrs Garth Brooks


    I don't get it. What if you didn't have kids and didn't pay the household charge? There's people out there with and without kids who didn't pay the household charge. So people without kids gets away and they punish the children. It doesn't make sense. Bunch of stupid idiots.


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    #167
    UDP
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,188 ✭✭✭UDP


    JRant wrote: »
    Major flaw in that arguement. The student, not the parent, applies for the grant. The local CoCo then want to know what they spent their last fiver on. The forms are huge and very complicated but nowhere in it does it state the need for a household tax clearance certificate, simples.
    The student applies for the grant as a dependent of their parents. They are fully entitled to apply for the grant as an independent if that is what they are and in which case they will not be affected by the non-payment of taxes or income levels of their parents.


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    #168
    Peanut2011
    Registered Users Posts: 1,001 ✭✭✭Peanut2011


    Valetta wrote: »
    You have now gone from implying that Mick Wallace was defaulting on taxes, to saying that he has done something illegal as a company director, to generally waffling about the whole system being full of crooks.

    I have said why I support Clare Co. Co. in what they are doing.

    Nobody should be in receipt of taxpayers money if they are not paying their own taxes.

    Care to prove me wrong?


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    #169
    Ironé
    Registered Users Posts: 260 ✭✭Ironé


    Biggins wrote: »
    If the state wishes to charge me money direct for an application for any one of my legal separate entity offspring, they are free to do so.

    If I don't pay up for that direct service, I deserve what I get - I'm applying for a small portion of national state collected funds after all.

    This simply latest pitiful, bitter tactic - and thats just what it is now - a tactic - to extort by one means or another (your dole, direct from your wages, etc, tracking you down through your esb/gas/etc bills...) every last cent from those that already cannot afford many things.
    ...After all if your applying for such a grant, your doing to BECAUSE your possibly on an extreme financial tightrope already!

    Its just another low-down, one more dirty tactic to put people backs against a wall and screw them even more in extortion!
    Pay up or your children suffer!

    Why not just be plain about it and put a fcuking gun to my head you government bastards!


    If you the parent are applying for a grant for your child based on your income and owe the county council money then why should they give you money for your child?


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    #170
    norrie rugger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,656 ✭✭✭norrie rugger


    Conar wrote: »
    I get where you are coming from to some extent but to be honest I'm getting kinda sick of people not paying taxes and getting away with it.
    I've been broke for the last 2 years cos I went back to retrain for a completely different career which has cost me a fortune but I still paid my household tax as I feel we should all pay our way.
    I wish they would just tax us all directly and get rid of these stealth taxes but it looks like that's not going to happen in the near future.

    Out of interest how would people feel if they lowered the amount people received in the grant due to a tax shortfall due to lower than expected take up on household charge payments?


    Hold on a second, our taxes are menat to be used to run the country.
    Right now we are facing higher taxes, cut services and row back on promised services.

    Our taxes are going to pay for the private gambling debts, of foreign banks. That is why I have an issue with this charge. They are trying to use this to subsidise the funds to local government, because they are sending the usual source of funds out of the country.

    So you either now have to pay this made up charge, that was not needed before we had to pay the private losses of european Banks, or our next generation can not go to college. It is blackmail, plain and simple. It is targetting people that have nothing to do with the payment, or not, of a charge.


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    #171
    Peanut2011
    Registered Users Posts: 1,001 ✭✭✭Peanut2011


    Ironé wrote: »
    If you the parent are applying for a grant for your child based on your income and owe the county council money then why should they give you money for your child?

    Because until they change legislation, you are entitled to it!


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    #172
    Akrasia
    Registered Users Posts: 22,313 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    UDP wrote: »
    The student applies for the grant as a dependent of their parents. They are fully entitled to apply for the grant as an independent if that is what they are and in which case they will not be affected by the non-payment of taxes or income levels of their parents.
    no they're not


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    #173
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Ironé wrote: »
    If you the parent are applying for a grant for your child based on your income and owe the county council money then why should they give you money for your child?

    ...Because the grant money is coming from an amalgamation of collected money within any one tax/revenue collected year by the state - NOT by a local council.

    An amalgamation of collected money which every person has paid into every time they have purchased anything/everything that has VAT, etc on it, from the shirt you wear at times to the duty on alcohol and bonus state charges on any bill that comes though your letter box!


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    #174
    JRant
    Registered Users Posts: 12,899 ✭✭✭✭JRant


    IvySlayer wrote: »
    Does anyone else find it extremely hypocritical that some people expect the Government to pay for all their childs education when they won't pay a simple charge themselves?

    The Government don't pay for a single thing. They allocate funds collected from every single person in this country. They most certainly do not put their hands into their own pockets and fork out for services.

    If the local CoCo want to get people to pay up then they will have to go through the correct channels to do this, the courts or changes in taxation law What they most certainly can't do is make stuff up as they go along.

    "Well, yeah, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man"



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    #175
    Ironé
    Registered Users Posts: 260 ✭✭Ironé


    Peanut2011 wrote: »
    Well maybe the start could be to have the government morons balance what they spend and where and tighten the budgets they have. Also eliminating loads of "self paying perks" would save a lot of money.

    That could be a start.

    The part in bold, do you consider paying Lord Mayor of Cork over €160k if I remember correctly a good use of money?

    If things like this were addressed first they would have a lot better response from the people on anything else they tried to do.

    Agree with you 100% - 160k is ridiculous salary and there are plenty other examples of other even stupid spending but it's only a drop in the ocean. Yes tackle these but that isn't going to even near cover the defecit - we're going to have to pay more tax and fees like this - we can't magic money out of the air. It is beyond depressing.


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    #176
    Gmol
    Registered Users Posts: 1,281 ✭✭✭Gmol


    Biggins wrote: »
    Fine - as things are getting worse, the next time you fail to pay for your TV licence in time, lets take your medical card - or your kids!

    The next time you fail to pay for any charge in time, lets take your driving licence away - or your kids!

    All fine and dandy!

    Extreme cases? Possibly - but thats the door that the state has now entered and opened upon the public!

    Don't say you were not warned!

    I really don't get it, If the grant is being taken out on behalf of the the children are the government not allowed check whether you have paid all the relevant taxes re, Car, Household charge or even TV licence. If you avail of the benefits that are there why shouldn't they be entitled to check to see if you have paid the taxes to fund the state.

    I don't like it very much but if someone doesn't pay their taxes everyone has too make up the difference.


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    #177
    Peanut2011
    Registered Users Posts: 1,001 ✭✭✭Peanut2011


    Ironé wrote: »
    Agree with you 100% - 160k is ridiculous salary and there are plenty other examples of other even stupid spending but it's only a drop in the ocean. Yes tackle these but that isn't going to even near cover the defecit - we're going to have to pay more tax and fees like this - we can't magic money out of the air. It is beyond depressing.

    Agree, but if they cleaned up their own house and than still came back and said now we have done all this we still need this, people would not have as much of a problem.

    The issue is the fact they have not cleaned up their own mess but want everyone else to pay more and more each year.

    I would have had no problem paying the HHT if thy cleaned up their act.


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    #178
    preddy
    Registered Users Posts: 650 ✭✭✭preddy


    Let the bears pay the bear tax, I pay the homer tax.

    Lets just get it straight these arn't taxes for our public services or local councils, these are taxes to pay back the banks failings, and external unsecured bond holders..


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    #179
    Conar
    Registered Users Posts: 1,604 ✭✭✭Conar


    norrie rugger wrote: »
    Conar wrote: »
    I get where you are coming from to some extent but to be honest I'm getting kinda sick of people not paying taxes and getting away with it.
    I've been broke for the last 2 years cos I went back to retrain for a completely different career which has cost me a fortune but I still paid my household tax as I feel we should all pay our way.
    I wish they would just tax us all directly and get rid of these stealth taxes but it looks like that's not going to happen in the near future.

    Out of interest how would people feel if they lowered the amount people received in the grant due to a tax shortfall due to lower than expected take up on household charge payments?


    Hold on a second, our taxes are menat to be used to run the country.
    Right now we are facing higher taxes, cut services and row back on promised services.

    Our taxes are going to pay for the private gambling debts, of foreign banks. That is why I have an issue with this charge. They are trying to use this to subsidise the funds to local government, because they are sending the usual source of funds out of the country.

    So you either now have to pay this made up charge, that was not needed before we had to pay the private losses of european Banks, or our next generation can not go to college. It is blackmail, plain and simple. It is targetting people that have nothing to do with the payment, or not, of a charge.

    Some of our taxes are going to pay for private debt some for running of the country. Taxes went down when we boomed stupidly as people kept voting in Fianna Fail for doing it and at the same time all that the socialist politicians were calling for was more money for the lower incomes not stopping the tax decreases which might have stabalised us. Now we're broke and need to pay more tax. No one is starving, kids still have free education for the most part, there's still a poor but mostly free hospital system. We might not have it all but people seem to think that the boom both should never have been allowed happen yet we should get to keep all the conditions that are with it.
    I'm sure plenty disagree with but that's my half arsed opinion.


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    #180
    JRant
    Registered Users Posts: 12,899 ✭✭✭✭JRant


    UDP wrote: »
    JRant wrote: »
    Major flaw in that arguement. The student, not the parent, applies for the grant. The local CoCo then want to know what they spent their last fiver on. The forms are huge and very complicated but nowhere in it does it state the need for a household tax clearance certificate, simples.
    The student applies for the grant as a dependent of their parents. They are fully entitled to apply for the grant as an independent if that is what they are and in which case they will not be affected by the non-payment of taxes or income levels of their parents.

    Best of luck with that one then. I was 28 and hadn't lived at home for nearly 8 years when I applied and let me tell you it was very hard to convice them that I was independant.
    I have friends here in college who live away from home full time and are still classed as dependant. Thats just the way the system works.

    "Well, yeah, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man"



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    #181
    Ironé
    Registered Users Posts: 260 ✭✭Ironé


    Peanut2011 wrote: »
    Agree, but if they cleaned up their own house and than still came back and said now we have done all this we still need this, people would not have as much of a problem.

    The issue is the fact they have not cleaned up their own mess but want everyone else to pay more and more each year.

    I would have had no problem paying the HHT if thy cleaned up their act.

    Thing is we can't wait until all these issues are resolved. Stupid decisions like that will be remebered come the election. I'm sure everyone has a different interpretation of the government cleaning up their own act - but it isn't going to make that big a difference financially. We owe too much.

    We shouldn't be constantly moaning about faceless bankers we have to start slowly making real change not just at government level but at local level too. To ensure we are never in this mess again


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