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Children penalised for the actions of parents

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13567…24

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    #62
    Anyone
    Registered Users Posts: 3,376 ✭✭✭Anyone


    Biggins wrote: »
    Quite simply that our government has become to bitter and low - they they are striking out at the youth of our nation!

    ...For the legal (or illegal) actions of others!

    What part of that is not clear?

    Look let me explain it for you. The Household charge was introduced to pay for local services. Now, I'm not going to get into pay or not pay or why you should or shouldn't pay. But! If you wont pay for the service, why should you get the service?


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    #63
    Skylinehead
    Registered Users Posts: 11,690 ✭✭✭✭Skylinehead


    dark crystal wrote: »
    My daughter had to apply for hers.

    Besides, I thought the Household charge was supposed to be for the provision of local services....would the educational grant be classed as a local service?

    Seeing as the local authority processes it, yes.


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    #64
    Peanut2011
    Registered Users Posts: 1,001 ✭✭✭Peanut2011


    uriah wrote: »
    Why should those parents who refuse to pay legitimate state taxes/levies/charges have their children benefit from state grants?

    Legitimate in your view???


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    #65
    AlmightyCushion
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 35,060 Mod ✭✭✭✭AlmightyCushion


    Peanut2011 wrote: »
    uriah wrote: »
    Why should those parents who refuse to pay legitimate state taxes/levies/charges have their children benefit from state grants?

    Legitimate in your view???
    No, legitimate as in the definition of the word.


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    #66
    dark crystal
    Registered Users Posts: 10,962 ✭✭✭✭dark crystal


    Skylinehead wrote: »
    Seeing as the local authority processes it, yes.

    Ok, fair enough. My daughter applied through SUSI, so I wasn't sure how county councils could claim the grant as a local service.


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    #67
    Zulu
    Registered Users Posts: 10,965 ✭✭✭✭Zulu


    Biggins wrote: »
    Fine - as things are getting worse, the next time you fail to pay for your TV licence in time, lets take your medical card - or your kids!
    I take it you are not suggesting the state is going to take my kids!

    But yea, that seems fine to me if you apply it properly, that is to say: the next time you attempt to apply for your medical card, you need to provide proof of paying your TV licence.

    Super sound to me.


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    #68
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Anyone wrote: »
    Look let me explain it for you. The Household charge was introduced to pay for local services. Now, I'm not going to get into pay or not pay or why you should or shouldn't pay. But! If you wont pay for the service, why should you get the service?

    The grant comes from whole state funds (which as been divided down allocated to the councils).

    An educational grant is not a local service (I feel), they are acting as local legally appointed agents for the state to allocate educational grants to those who cannot afford further education.

    I'm sure you will disagree.


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    #69
    bamboozle
    Registered Users Posts: 3,699 ✭✭✭bamboozle


    AlmightyCushion wrote: »
    What a stupidly sensationalist title. If a parent doesn't pay their ESB bill and the electricity gets cut off then the child is also punished. If a parent parks a car somewhere they shouldn't and it gets towed then the child who uses that car also suffers.

    ohhh, a sensible post like this wont go down well with some on this thread...

    how some fail to appreciate the logic is beyond me
    if you are not tax complaint then you will not be able to claim benefits for your children. If you chose not to be tax compliant it is your choice, deal with the consequences for you and your children.


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    #70
    Anyone
    Registered Users Posts: 3,376 ✭✭✭Anyone


    dark crystal wrote: »
    Ok, fair enough. My daughter applied through SUSI, so I wasn't sure how county councils could claim the grant as a local service.

    Its not the grant, its the processing of the application that's the service. That's the difference.


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    #71
    asherbassad
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,869 ✭✭✭asherbassad


    Medu wrote: »
    So it's disgusting that people are forced to pay their taxes? The only way that 'Children' will be penalised is if their parents aren't able to see that paying €100 to receive thousands in return is a fairly good deal.

    What about those who don't avail of any of the services this charge is supposed to cover?


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    #72
    Peanut2011
    Registered Users Posts: 1,001 ✭✭✭Peanut2011


    Anyone wrote: »
    Look let me explain it for you. The Household charge was introduced to pay for local services. Now, I'm not going to get into pay or not pay or why you should or shouldn't pay. But! If you wont pay for the service, why should you get the service?

    If I remember correctly the only rules for the grant are:
    • Nationality and immigration status
    • Residence
    • Means
    Where does it state the HHT??


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    #73
    JRant
    Registered Users Posts: 12,902 ✭✭✭✭JRant


    Anyone wrote: »
    Biggins wrote: »
    Well done, The rant is linked to the income of the parent.
    Not the word "income" - not for the possible crimes of the parent!

    ...But some for the sake of their argument - don't want to see the difference or unable to!

    You're not seeing the arguement, not at all, in fact like others, you are making one up. Clare county council are removing a local service from those who didnt pay they local service charge. That local service is the processing of grant applications. Tough shít that its actually a really really valuable service, but people were warned that services would be removed and now its happening.

    To clarify this, I recently had to send in one such application to my local council. I went through the forms with a fine tooth comb and can assure you that nowhere does it state that a household tax clearance certificate is required at any stage.
    Now if this had of been written into the application forms they may have some sort of legal basis for it but this is just ad-hoc gobsh*tery.
    We can't have bodies making the rules up as they go along without proper consultation and notice.
    What sort of a mess will we be left in then?
    Can't avail of hospital services because you haven't paid your TV license?
    Nonsense.

    "Well, yeah, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man"



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    #74
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    Just when I thought the government couldn't stoop any lower..

    As was said by someone else, if all students were tested on their own incomes, they'd all qualify for grants. To avoid that, they test the parents instead, despite the fact that a lot of parents have no interest in supporting or even partially supporting their adult child through education.

    So not only do the majority of students struggle to get through college financially as it is, now they're the ones taking the hit for their parents not paying the charge.

    99.9999% of students do not own their own home. They live in their parents home. I could understand maybe students who owned their own place having it withheld until the fee was paid, but why are they being penalised when they don't even own a house in the first place?

    It makes no sense. The greed of the government never fails to surprise me, as always, they're punishing the vulnerable and poor for the mistakes of men with deep pockets. Its disgraceful.


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    #75
    Anyone
    Registered Users Posts: 3,376 ✭✭✭Anyone


    Biggins wrote: »
    The grant comes from whole state funds (which as been divided down allocated to the councils).

    An educational grant is not a local service (I feel), they are acting as local legally appointed agents for the state to allocate educational grants to those who cannot afford further education.

    I'm sure you will disagree.

    Once again, I'll repeat...its not the grant thats being refused, thats not the service that is being denied. The service thats being the denied is the processing of the application, which is a service provided by the local authority.


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    #76
    UDP
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,188 ✭✭✭UDP


    Biggins wrote: »
    Wot? :confused:
    The grant is already dependant on the parents but only if the student is also dependant on the parents. This means students are already penalised for the actions of their parents if they are dependant on them - that is the downside of being dependent on another person.

    Of course students are fully entitled to apply for the grant independent of their parents as per the Student Support Act 2011 where only their own actions/income etc is taken into account.

    Thread fail.


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    #77
    jessiejam
    Registered Users Posts: 778 ✭✭✭jessiejam


    Anyone wrote: »
    Look let me explain it for you. The Household charge was introduced to pay for local services. Now, I'm not going to get into pay or not pay or why you should or shouldn't pay. But! If you wont pay for the service, why should you get the service?

    We're already paying for the fukin service!

    The councils receive money from the govt every year to provide services. Cork City Council got €166,968,900 in 2012. They get this money from the taxes we already pay.
    Income tax
    car tax
    USC
    vat

    etc etc

    Budget properly. Maybe the next time the council are digging a hole in the ground there doesn't need to be 7 other men leaning on shovels watching one man dig.
    I am not contributing another cent until they start spending their money more efficiently


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    #78
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    uriah wrote: »
    Why should those parents who refuse to pay legitimate state taxes/levies/charges have their children benefit from state grants?

    Key word, of course, is 'legitimate'...


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    #79
    Carlos Orange
    Registered Users Posts: 2,499 ✭✭✭Carlos Orange


    samina wrote: »
    I have a 17 year old in college she is a child.
    I'm exempt as the council have a share in my house. But I think it's shameful children and young adults who are entitled to the grant on the basis that their families have low incomes should be penalized like this because their parents havent paid. Even if they do pay it to get the grant it's just making a very long process even longer.

    If only somebody had told them about the household charge months ago.


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    #80
    asherbassad
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,869 ✭✭✭asherbassad


    bamboozle wrote: »
    ohhh, a sensible post like this wont go down well with some on this thread...

    how some fail to appreciate the logic is beyond me (then again i'm not a free loader or member of the loony left)

    if you are not tax complaint then you will not be able to claim benefits for your children. If you chose not to be tax compliant it is your choice, deal with the consequences for you and your children.

    What the hell is this supposed to mean?
    What's this loony left crap? What are you on about?
    Anyone who has the balls to question government theft and corruption is now some kind of commie nut?
    What planet are you on or are you just shilling for the exchequer?


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    #81
    Peanut2011
    Registered Users Posts: 1,001 ✭✭✭Peanut2011


    Anyone wrote: »
    Once again, I'll repeat...its not the grant thats being refused, thats not the service that is being denied. The service thats being the denied is the processing of the application, which is a service provided by the local authority.

    Can you please point me to the application for where it states that I must pay local CoCo for processing the application?


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    #82
    ilovesleep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭ilovesleep


    uriah wrote: »
    Children don't go to university.
    Children don't apply for third level grants.
    These are adults being assessed for grants on the basis of parents' income.

    Why should those parents who refuse to pay legitimate state taxes/levies/charges have their children benefit from state grants?
    The rest of us should pay so that they get the grants? Really?

    I applaud Clare County Council. I hope othe county councils (and all state bodies) follow their example.

    If you opt out of paying, you opt out of benefits. It's very simple.

    But where does it stop?

    Refuse the youngsters medical care when they fall ill because his/her mom/dad didn't pay their tax or made a fcuk up with tax.

    Does Bertie have a tax clearing certificate?
    He doesn't. He was dodgy as fcuk.
    Isn't he able to access public money with his pension?


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    #83
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    Bottom line is that this penalizes one individual for the actions of a different individual. Unless the person applying for the grant is the homeowner, it's not on. If the parents were applying for a grant of some kind it might be different, but this is ludicrous. You are punishing somebody for the actions of somebody else.

    When you think about it though, we're all shelling out in tax to pay for Sean FitzPatrick's douchebaggery so I guess being penalized for somebody else's wrongs isn't exactly a new concept in this country :mad:


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    #84
    westendgirlie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,125 ✭✭✭westendgirlie


    Anyone wrote: »
    Once again, I'll repeat...its not the grant thats being refused, thats not the service that is being denied. The service thats being the denied is the processing of the application, which is a service provided by the local authority.

    In a nutshell


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    #85
    Anyone
    Registered Users Posts: 3,376 ✭✭✭Anyone


    Peanut2011 wrote: »
    Can you please point me to the application for where it states that I must pay local CoCo for processing the application?

    I haven't seen any of these applications, so I cant. I'll show you plenty of instances where its been stated that the Household charge is being used to fund local services though. And I'll show you plenty of warnings issued that non payment of the Household charge may mean a drop or removal of a service.


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    #86
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Anyone wrote: »
    Its not the grant, its the processing of the application that's the service. That's the difference.

    So... have a separately payable price for the processing of that application.
    This is NOT rocket science!

    Meanwhile the Household charge can go towards the water/rubbish/whatever the hell services that they physically go out and do!

    Not penalise offspring because someone ELSE has not paid a bill on a house!


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    #87
    Forest Demon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 632 ✭✭✭Forest Demon


    It won't affect children of people who work in a university either as they get completely free 3rd level education. Even staff on six figure salary's get completely free 3rd level for their children.

    http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/college-staffs-children-educated-for-free-192274.html

    To put it in context in UCC alone last year this perk cost the university (state) €244,000.

    A bus driver (or whoever) with a huge mortgage, having paid huge stamp duty only only couple of years ago and struggling to put food on the table might not be able to pay the load of bollox household charge so their child suffers.

    The councils don't even have to show how they spend (waste) the money they get. They are totally unaccountable.

    Typical inequality in Ireland


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    #88
    JustAddWater
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,990 ✭✭✭JustAddWater


    Anyone wrote: »
    Anybody going to college/university is not a child.
    Everyone is someones child!


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    #89
    westendgirlie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,125 ✭✭✭westendgirlie


    Biggins wrote: »
    So... have a separately payable price for the processing of that application.
    This is NOT rocket science!

    Meanwhile the Household charge can go towards the water/rubbish/whatever the hell services that they physically go out and do!

    Not penalise offspring because someone ELSE has not paid a bill on a house!

    But if a parent chose not to pay the application processing fee, wouldn't the children still be the one being penalised?


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    #90
    norrie rugger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,656 ✭✭✭norrie rugger


    uriah wrote: »
    Children don't go to university.
    Children don't apply for third level grants.
    These are adults being assessed for grants on the basis of parents' income.

    Why should those parents who refuse to pay legitimate state taxes/levies/charges have their children benefit from state grants?
    The rest of us should pay so that they get the grants? Really?

    I applaud Clare County Council. I hope othe county councils (and all state bodies) follow their example.

    If you opt out of paying, you opt out of benefits. It's very simple.

    First: there are plenty of 17 year olds in college

    Second: if they are adults why is the grant based on the parents incomes?

    Third: if they are based on the parents incomes why should they be further punished if the parents do not pay?


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    #91
    Carlos Orange
    Registered Users Posts: 2,499 ✭✭✭Carlos Orange


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    Bottom line is that this penalizes one individual for the actions of a different individual. Unless the person applying for the grant is the homeowner, it's not on. If the parents were applying for a grant of some kind it might be different, but this is ludicrous. You are punishing somebody for the actions of somebody else.

    When you think about it though, we're all shelling out in tax to pay for Sean FitzPatrick's douchebaggery so I guess being penalized for somebody else's wrongs isn't exactly a new concept in this country :mad:

    If someone applying for the grant was refused due to their parents income would you consider that them being punished for the actions of a different individual?


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