Children penalised for the actions of parents

ilovesleep

Skylinehead wrote: »

Yes yes,we get it. This has nothing to do with Mick Wallace.

Mick Wallace cheated on paying his tax and revenue.
June 2012 he offers to pay up half of his 93k a year salary.
Later in summer 2012, he applies for an allowance, a leaders allowance, that he is entitled to. A tax free sum of 41k a year. He now has a new income and thus cheating revenue of another 21k, because he is now not paying half of his entire income. He gets his allowance back dated to March 2011 and receives a big lump sum of 60 something thousand.


Household tax is introduced for 2012, to be paid fto your local county council. There are many hard pressed families and many arguements against this, that it is unjust. Not only this, many councils have spending problems with runaway expeniture and perhaps even meaningless projects. Or maybe even projects that have been opposed my many members of the public, yet concerns go ignored, and the projects go ahead.
On top of this the very minister who introduced this has a property abroad that he refuses to pay his property tax on.

We now have Mary and Joe Bloggs and their young adult who wishes to go further onto 3rd level studies. But due to financial circumstances, it is very hard to do so, and with that their son/daughter applies for a grant. This grant form requires the parents income, so that the grant isn't paid out to a family that is absolutely MINTED. But now the county council has made up a new rule:
No household tax = is no grant.

Mick Wallace's salary is public money.
The grant is public money.

Mick Wallace is a tax cheat of millions.
Mary and Joe bloggs haven't paid the household tax, of €100 euro.

Mick Wallace gets an extra 41k on top of his salary of 93k, for cheating revenue of millions.
Mary and Joe Blogg's son/daughter is not allowed the grant for holding back on €100 from the council.

One tax cheat of millions gets rewarded.
The other tax cheat of 100 euro gets penalised.

The thread is not about Mick Wallace, no. But name me one thing that is fair about the above?

Discrimination and nothing but.

The great untouchable high kings.

Same really as the holy fcuking catholic church of Ireland:
The vatican was never held responsible for raping boys up their bum and allowed away scott free.
But a paedophile with some paedo images will be held accountable for his actions.

Biggins

Gmol wrote: »

I really don't get it, If the grant is being taken out on behalf of the the children are the government not allowed check whether you have paid all the relevant taxes re, Car, Household charge or even TV licence. If you avail of the benefits that are there why shouldn't they be entitled to check to see if you have paid the taxes to fund the state.

I don't like it very much but if someone doesn't pay their taxes everyone has too make up the difference.

The point being that you clearly missed (1) the sins of the father being handed down to the sons! and (2) why NOW? Surley from the date of the state first being founded (ot sometime soon after) this process should have applied!

No, this is now ONLY being used as a stick to beat parents up, over to extract money from them.
To extract money from them so that their offspring can access money coming from originally collected elsewhere at higher state level, already contributed to by everyone (by paying every other tax/charge/VAT/levy under the sun).

The stick is now being swung and offspring are getting hit - not the people who might separately legally defied a LOCAL council.

lucylu

Peanut2011 wrote: »

Because until they change legislation, you are entitled to it!

This is the whole problem with this country - everyone believes they are entitled to something for nothing

Ironé

lucylu wrote: »

This is the whole problem with this country - everyone believes they are entitled to something for nothing

Absolutely.

What I don't understand is this: we are up to our eyeballs in debt; how do people expect to get out of this mess without making sacrifices?

Ironé

Biggins wrote: »

The point being that you clearly missed (1) the sins of the father being handed down to the sons! and (2) why NOW? Surley from the date of the state first being founded (ot sometime soon after) this process should have applied!

No, this is now ONLY being used as a stick to beat parents up, over to extract money from them.
To extract money from them so that their offspring can access money coming from originally collected elsewhere at higher state level, already contributed to by everyone (by paying every other tax/charge/VAT/levy under the sun).

The stick is now being swung and offspring are getting hit - not the people who might separately legally defied a LOCAL council.

You as a parent are making the application - not the child. And you are applying for a county council grant.

Biggins

lucylu wrote: »

This is the whole problem with this country - everyone believes they are entitled to something for nothing

...And what about all of us that (other than one new charge) have been up to now, paying the vast bulk of their taxes/charges/vat on goods, they still should gain something back for it too which directly effect their particular lives!

No, bugger that, throw that ALL out the window because you have not paid one particular charge - and the icing on the cake is that your kids are going to suffer too!

Biggins

Ironé wrote: »

...you are applying for a county council grant.

...And that money has come from where?

Up to now, the household charge you say?

UDP

Akrasia wrote: »

no they're not

Yes they are:
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/education/third_level_education/fees_and_supports_for_third_level_education/maintenance_grant_schemes_for_students_on_third_level_courses.html

If you were ordinarily resident with your parents from October 1 of the year before the year of entry to the course, you are considered dependent on your parents and your income (if any) is assessed together with your parents' income(s). An allowance is made for your earnings outside of term-time – up to €3,809 currently.

This covered by the Student Support Act 2011 which abolished the under 23 rule of being a dependent child.
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2011/en/act/pub/0004/print.html#sec16

(7) (a) In this section “dependent child” means a child, including a foster child, of a person referred to in paragraph (b) which child, on a day to be prescribed—

(i) has not attained the age of 16 years, or

(ii) has attained the age of 16 years or more, resides with a person referred to in paragraph (b), and

(I) is pursuing a full-time course of education, or

(II) is certified by a registered medical practitioner (within the meaning of section 2 of the Medical Practitioners Act 2007 ) as being permanently unfit to work by reason of a medical condition.

(b) A dependent child shall be the child of and, shall reside with one or, as the case may be, more than one of the following:

(i) an independent student;

(ii) the spouse of an independent student;

(iii) a dependent student;

(iv) one parent or both parents of the dependent student.

(c) A day prescribed for the purposes of paragraph (a) shall be a day that is not earlier than 12 months before the day on which a student, in relation to whose application for a grant a dependent child is relevant, commences a year of study in any year at an approved course.

ilovesleep

Ironé wrote: »

Agree with you 100% - 160k is ridiculous salary and there are plenty other examples of other even stupid spending but it's only a drop in the ocean. Yes tackle these but that isn't going to even near cover the defecit - we're going to have to pay more tax and fees like this - we can't magic money out of the air. It is beyond depressing.

Absolutely agree. Those high salaries should have been the first thing to look at, at the start of this recession but no one in government has the balls to do that. By the time they have to cut huge salaries, it will be too late. Private sector will be sucked dry and on it's last legs and unemployment worsening. All to keep some people with high salaries.

Forget now about the past and what should have been done. Moving to the future:

It has to happen all together or what will happen is that those with too little will be paying into the pockets of those with too much. A huge imbalance.

UDP

JRant wrote: »

Best of luck with that one then. I was 28 and hadn't lived at home for nearly 8 years when I applied and let me tell you it was very hard to convice them that I was independant.
I have friends here in college who live away from home full time and are still classed as dependant. Thats just the way the system works.

The act passed last year changed all that.

samina

The most irritating thing about it all is the income threshold for the grant is low so it's again an attack on the poorer people, while the people with money don't have to bend over for anyone

Pherekydes

Biggins wrote: »

...And that money has come from where?

Up to now, the household charge you say?

As has been pointed out before, Biggins, it comes from taxpayers' money, as you well know.

Now, if people don't pay their taxes what happens?

Ironé

Biggins wrote: »

...And what about all of us that (other than one new charge) have been up to now, paying the vast bulk of their taxes/charges/vat on goods, they still should gain something back for it too which directly effect their particular lives!

om .. roads, hospitals, gardaí, teachers, schools, social welfare ...

Just to name but a few things you get for paying tax. This is the problem with this country people think they get nothing for paying tax - you get all of the above and a whole lot more. And if everyone paid all their taxes not just "the vast bulk" then we'd be a lot better off.

JRant

Ironé wrote: »

Peanut2011 wrote: »

Agree, but if they cleaned up their own house and than still came back and said now we have done all this we still need this, people would not have as much of a problem.

The issue is the fact they have not cleaned up their own mess but want everyone else to pay more and more each year.

I would have had no problem paying the HHT if thy cleaned up their act.

Thing is we can't wait until all these issues are resolved. Stupid decisions like that will be remebered come the election. I'm sure everyone has a different interpretation of the government cleaning up their own act - but it isn't going to make that big a difference financially. We owe too much.

We shouldn't be constantly moaning about faceless bankers we have to start slowly making real change not just at government level but at local level too. To ensure we are never in this mess again

I'm all for change but lets get real here. Your asking the turkeys to vote on christmas.
Dissent, protest and witholding unjust payments are all real means to get the powers that be to sit up and take notice. Sure it's far from ideal but when you have vested interests so far removed from everyday life one can't just sit back and hope it all comes good.
Make no mistake we are in this mess for the long haul and if we allow them encroach in this matter where will it end?

Ghandee

We'll see who the real bright Sparks are when the 'only a hundred euro' this year, turns into a few hundred next year, followed by a few grand in the few years after that.

Also, why don't Clare county council not start giving out the grant less the hundred euro the parents haven't paid?

We all the know the answer here, its not the hundred euro they're stuck for, they really want your details........... or, a blank cheque to charge you whatever they feel like raising the property tax to in the future.

Ironé

ilovesleep wrote: »

Absolutely agree. Those high salaries should have been the first thing to look at, at the start of this recession but no one in government has the balls to do that. By the time they have to cut huge salaries, it will be too late. Private sector will be sucked dry and on it's last legs and unemployment worsening. All to keep some people with high salaries.

Forget now about the past and what should have been done. Moving to the future:

It has to happen all together or what will happen is that those with too little will be paying into the pockets of those with too much. A huge imbalance.

Keeping some people in a few high salaries - that should be changed I agree. But reducing "a few high salaries" is only a small drop in the ocean - we are billions of euro in debt.

Ironé

JRant wrote: »

I'm all for change but lets get real here. Your asking the turkeys to vote on christmas.
Dissent, protest and witholding unjust payments are all real means to get the powers that be to sit up and take notice. Sure it's far from ideal but when you have vested interests so far removed from everyday life one can't just sit back and hope it all comes good.
Make no mistake we are in this mess for the long haul and if we allow them encroach in this matter where will it end?

Agree - civil disobedience is a valid form of protest - but you have to live with the consequences of it and this is one of those.

Best protest you can do is use your vote in the next election.

Biggins

Pherekydes wrote: »

As has been pointed out before, Biggins, it comes from taxpayers' money, as you well know.

Now, if people don't pay their taxes what happens?

Even the ones not now paying the €100 charge, have been contributing daily, hourly to the state.
Every time they pay a bill and/or purchase an item.
The same state which is handing down the money for the education grants.
The councils are ONLY their middle men in this process to gain the STATE collected money.
You might not have paid €100 household charge but the rest of your daily contributions to the state (one way of very, very many), has gone partly towards education grants and collected at state level.

Ironé wrote: »

om .. roads, hospitals, gardaí, teachers, schools, social welfare ...

Just to name but a few things you get for paying tax. This is the problem with this country people think they get nothing for paying tax - you get all of the above and a whole lot more. And if everyone paid all their taxes not just "the vast bulk" then we'd be a lot better off.

Yes, and and included in all the above listed, is education grants - well until now - when someone has come up with the notion, lets punish offspring because their separate legal parents have not done something themselves, involving one new localised charge!

hatrickpatrick

Ironé wrote: »

Agree with you 100% - 160k is ridiculous salary and there are plenty other examples of other even stupid spending but it's only a drop in the ocean. Yes tackle these but that isn't going to even near cover the defecit - we're going to have to pay more tax and fees like this - we can't magic money out of the air. It is beyond depressing.

It doesn't matter; it's the principle behind it. It would appear that many here can overlook principle, but some of us can't.
I would be happier paying such a charge if I got a written guarantee that not a single penny of my taxes was going into a private bank or into the pocket of an overpaid politician.

Is it so horrific for citizens to want some sort of accountability for what happens to their money? If it's being used to fun services then show us the proof of this, proof that it's not for example going to pay a ministerial advisor who, under Enda Kenny's "personal intervention", is already being paid more than the limit which the government themselves introduced.

You can say that is irrelevant if you like, but it's not. Many people who object to the household charge object to it on the grounds of what our taxes are being spent on, not the taxes themselves.

Regardless of the above, it is nonsensical to punish an individual for the actions of another individual, as I said earlier.

lucylu

Biggins wrote: »

...And what about all of us that (other than one new charge) have been up to now, paying the vast bulk of their taxes/charges/vat on goods, they still should gain something back for it too which directly effect their particular lives!

No, bugger that, throw that ALL out the window because you have not paid one particular charge - and the icing on the cake is that your kids are going to suffer too!

Parents are getting childrens allowance 140 x 12 months x 18 years = approx 30200 per child.
The free money tree is well and truely dead.

Ironé

Biggins wrote: »

Even the ones not now paying the €100 charge, have been contributing daily, hourly to the state.
Every time they pay a bill and/or purchase an item.
The same state which is handing down the money for the education grants.
The councils are ONLY their middle men in this process to gain the STATE collected money.


Yes, and and included in all the above listed, is education grants - well until now - when someone has come up with the notion, lets punish offspring because their separate legal parents have not done something themselves, involving one new localised charge!

So you are saying that the state gives money for grants and the council collect money for the state. Good on them!

Also what is separate legal parent?

Ghandee

Ironé wrote: »

Agree - civil disobedience is a valid form of protest - but you have to live with the consequences of it and this is one of those.

Best protest you can do is use your vote in the next election.

Didn't a lot of voters think they were doing that at the last elections?


Not another red cent, labours way, not frankfurts way etc?


The time to protest is now, we've been fooled for too long on this island!:mad:

JRant

Ironé wrote: »

Biggins wrote: »

...And what about all of us that (other than one new charge) have been up to now, paying the vast bulk of their taxes/charges/vat on goods, they still should gain something back for it too which directly effect their particular lives!

om .. roads, hospitals, gardaí, teachers, schools, social welfare ...

Just to name but a few things you get for paying tax. This is the problem with this country people think they get nothing for paying tax - you get all of the above and a whole lot more. And if everyone paid all their taxes not just "the vast bulk" then we'd be a lot better off.

No, we would not be a lot better off. It doesn't matter how much tax is taken in, 'WE' as a country will never be able to pay off all this debt.
The amount of money that has already left the country, our money i might add, is stagering.

ilovesleep

Galways FG's Fildelma Healy Rayes (spelling?) didn't pay her car tax.
Was her salary refused to be paid to her?

Biggins

Ironé wrote: »

So you are saying that the state gives money for grants and the council collect money for the state. Good on them!

Also what is separate legal parent?

The state collects money for use as they see fit - that includes education grants.

A local council supposedly collects local charges for use on amenities in the local area.

I thought that was obvious.

what is a separate legal parent?

A person which is legally responsibly for their own actions/words/liabilities under state Tort and daily judicial law.
The punishment of one where applicable, being separate from those not involved/party to another's own actions/words/liabilities.

Ironé

JRant wrote: »

No, we would not be a lot better off. It doesn't matter how much tax is taken in, 'WE' as a country will never be able to pay off all this debt.
The amount of money that has already left the country, our money i might add, is stagering.

How much money came into the country from Europe during the boom times?

I get what you are saying but I think that every little bit of money helps. And 100 euro a year is only a little bit of money. The property tax will be a whole lot more.

Gmol

Biggins wrote: »

The point being that you clearly missed (1) the sins of the father being handed down to the sons! and (2) why NOW? Surley from the date of the state first being founded (ot sometime soon after) this process should have applied!

No, this is now ONLY being used as a stick to beat parents up, over to extract money from them.
To extract money from them so that their offspring can access money coming from originally collected elsewhere at higher state level, already contributed to by everyone (by paying every other tax/charge/VAT/levy under the sun).

The stick is now being swung and offspring are getting hit - not the people who might separately legally defied a LOCAL council.

I'll answer your 2nd point first
True the timing of it is lousy but do you not think a more stable tax base will provide more certainty in the future, the previous government spent a fortune based on an unsustainable boom and you have got to start somewhere.
The bank debt is a disaster for Ireland but the public spending debt is the one that needs to be addressed in order to get the country up and running and long term is the real problem. The Bank Debt problem is unsustainable so the EU will address this eventually

The grant is based on the parents income and yes the child is being punished but the child may benefit from the housecharge money being withheld. Why should a family benefit from not paying their taxes and then expect to get money in return?

mikom

ilovesleep wrote: »

Galways FG's Fildelma Healy Rayes (spelling?) didn't pay her car tax.
Was her salary refused to be paid to her?

No.
How else was her plumber to be paid in cash otherwise......

Mr Eames paid cash to the plumber Mr Allen originally hired to complete the project. http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0726/1224320828358.html

Biggins

lucylu wrote: »

Parents are getting childrens allowance...x 18 years...

Just for clarity:

Child Benefit (previously known as Children's Allowance) is payable to the parents or guardians of children under 16 years of age, or under 18 years of age if the child is in full-time education, FÁS Youthreach training or has a disability. Child Benefit is not paid on behalf of 18-year olds.

The present shower is now considering lowering the age limit - possibly at the next fun-filled budget (thank you Merkel).

coffee_cake

Gmol wrote: »

True the timing of it is lousy but do you not think a more stable tax base will provide more certainty in the future

Absolutely not, they'll just fritter it away again

, the previous government spent a fortune based on an unsustainable boom and you have got to start somewhere.

Cut public spending including all their stupid advisors and cronies