Children penalised for the actions of parents

IvySlayer

Biggins wrote: »

You didn't previously ask the bolded question above - you must have missed that part!

Child benefit is applied for at a social service office - which by the way, they do NOT charge for.
...And we can assume the same amount of assessment as regard income is used?
No?

There was simply NO mention of education grants when the Household tax came in or was introduced to the public.
They are only now using it as a stick to hit people over the head with - hit one person but fcuk it, let someone else feel the pain!
They don't care who suffers as long as they get to get the boot in!

And you dodged mine.

Having a child does not excuse you from not paying taxes. So you don't pay a tax, the Government rightly denies you services.

Using the 'think of the kids' argument in this case is one of the stupidest arguments I have ever heard. Parents hiding behind their kids to not be punished is laughable.

Conar

Biggins wrote: »

IvySlayer wrote: »

If people don't pay taxes, we can't afford all these grants. If someone didn't pay their taxes should they get child benefit? Nope.

...And if a person paid every other charge/tax/levy under the Irish sun but forgot or simply didn't pay one charge for 'local services' - their offspring gets the punishment?

Yea, that sounds completely fair all right!

Aren't people being given the option to pay the €100 now and then get the grant?
So the grant is not being denied merely held pending the payment.

hatrickpatrick

psinno wrote: »

If someone applying for the grant was refused due to their parents income would you consider that them being punished for the actions of a different individual?

Actually yes, particularly if they're not living at home.

Peanut2011

Skylinehead wrote: »

Yes yes,we get it. This has nothing to do with Mick Wallace.

Absolutely right, but as a citizen of this state he should be held under same standard as the rest of us. So if he still gets payment from state coffers should he not be made provide proof he paid his taxes.

Fenian Army

could labour stoop any lower?

They arent a "labour party" which serves the working people of Ireland, they accept that themselves. FG in all but name

http://cedarlounge.wordpress.com/2012/09/13/labour-sinn-fein-and-the-er-workers-party/

Fenian Army

lots of students have paid deposits etc and are now being held to ransom, disgraceful carry on

hatrickpatrick

IvySlayer wrote: »

And you dodged mine.

Having a child does not excuse you from not paying taxes. So you don't pay a tax, the Government rightly denies you services.

Using the 'think of the kids' argument in this case is one of the stupidest arguments I have ever heard. Parents hiding behind their kids to not be punished is laughable.

Key word here is "you". The government denies *you* services. Not somebody else.

dark crystal

IvySlayer wrote: »

If people don't pay taxes, we can't afford all these grants. If someone didn't pay their taxes should they get child benefit? Nope.

Many people who don't pay taxes get child benefit.

The witholding of this grant is over the princely sum of €100...what about the thousands in taxes those people have paid during the preceeding years?

Biggins

Conar wrote: »

Aren't people being given the option to pay the €100 now and then get the grant?
So the grant is not being denied merely held pending the payment.

Correct - no argument - but the point that is missed, or wanted to be missed, is that education grants are handed down from state coffers, an amalgamation of every tax that every citizen is paying - not just the household charge.

...But NOW because Mr Joe Bloggs had not paid a new invented charge for local services, bins/water/local roads/parks/etc... his children/offspring now is being denied to the education grant which has come from a larger sourced amount - and not just a household tax!

uck51js9zml2yt

the same people who won't pay the tax they are legally obliged to pay want taxpayers who are compliant to put their kids through college.

I see a problem with that.

IvySlayer

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Key word here is "you". The government denies *you* services. Not somebody else.

Parents name is on the form though. The grant is being applied on the basis of the parents finances no?

dark crystal wrote: »

Many people who don't pay taxes get child benefit.

The witholding of this grant is over the princely sum of €100...what about the thousands in taxes those people have paid during the preceeding years?

Irrelevant, paying taxes last year doesn't excuse from paying this years.

Fenian Army

Biggins wrote: »

Correct - no argument - but the point that is missed, or wanted to be missed, is that education grants are handed down from state coffers, an amalgamation of every tax that every citizen is paying - not just the household charge.

...But NOW because Mr Joe Bloggs had not paid a new invented charge for local services, bins/water/local roads/parks/etc... his children/offspring now is being denied to the education grant which has come from a larger sourced amount - and not just a household tax!

And the thing is, people werent even warned in advance. Many have paid deposits or part of the student contribution already anticipating the grant, now parents are being forced to pay this unjust, unwarranted, bondholder servicing charge or they and their kids will be stuck for money and their child will be denied an education

talk about being a cunt!!

Biggins

IvySlayer wrote: »

And you dodged mine.

Having a child does not excuse you from not paying taxes. So you don't pay a tax, the Government rightly denies you services.

Using the 'think of the kids' argument in this case is one of the stupidest arguments I have ever heard. Parents hiding behind their kids to not be punished is laughable.

I'm not saying "think of the kids" - I'm saying maybe "think of the bitter unfairness" !

Parents hiding behind their kids when and if it happens is despicable.

A government now using proverbial arm-twisting/emotional blackmail/punishment metered out on offspring, denying a better chance of education - just because a separate legal person has not done something, is the action of the lowest of the low.

..And our disgusting, lying, two-faced, u-turn artist filled latest government has already sunk very low - and going deeper!

Valetta

Peanut2011 wrote: »

Absolutely right, but as a citizen of this state he should be held under same standard as the rest of us. So if he still gets payment from state coffers should he not be made provide proof he paid his taxes.

As far as I am aware Mick Wallace is fully tax compliant.

Do you know otherwise?

PizzamanIRL

People need to stop defending the government. Oh, you didn't pay the precious government their made up random €100 tax?

It's the principle of it all, not the fact that you pay €100 for a few thousand euro worth of a grant. Alot of householders are strongly against paying that silly tax so they don't want to be bullied into paying it, which is exaclty whats going on.

Bunch of **** in that governemt

Biggins

Fenian Army wrote: »

And the thing is, people werent even warned in advance. Many have paid deposits or part of the student contribution already anticipating the grant, now parents are being forced to pay this unjust, unwarranted, bondholder servicing charge or they and their kids will be stuck for money and their child will be denied an education

talk about being a cunt!!

Proverbial "ha-ha... we got you by the balls! Stuff you - we are going to make your offspring suffer!"

IvySlayer

Biggins wrote: »

I'm not saying "think of the kids" - I'm saying maybe "think of the bitter unfairness" !

Parents hiding behind their kids when and if it happens is despicable.

A government now using proverbial arm-twisting/emotional blackmail/punishment metered out on offspring, denying a better chance of education - just because a separate legal person has not done something, is the action of the lowest of the low.

..And our disgusting, lying, two-faced, u-turn artist filled latest government has already sunk very low - and going deeper!

On the grant there's a space saying parents name and financial information. The parents didn't bother to pay taxes so it's bye bye grant application. They and the child are rightly denied. No problem with it at all. They didn't pay towards it, their child, THEIR responsibility, doesn't get to go. Pay your damn taxes like everybody else does.

Fenian Army

Its a hundred quid now, who knows what it will be in the future, or what other charges will be brought in!

This needs to be nipped in the bud!

Peanut2011

Valetta wrote: »

As far as I am aware Mick Wallace is fully tax compliant.

Do you know otherwise?

As a director of the company he signed false declaration of tax. He knew it was false and decided to do it. Is that not against the law, but I don't see him being denied anything.

Conar

Biggins wrote: »

Conar wrote: »

Aren't people being given the option to pay the €100 now and then get the grant?
So the grant is not being denied merely held pending the payment.

Correct - no argument - but the point that is missed, or wanted to be missed, is that education grants are handed down from state coffers, an amalgamation of every tax that every citizen is paying - not just the household charge.

...But NOW because Mr Joe Bloggs had not paid a new invented charge for local services, bins/water/local roads/parks/etc... his children/offspring now is being denied to the education grant which has come from a larger sourced amount - and not just a household tax!

I get where you are coming from to some extent but to be honest I'm getting kinda sick of people not paying taxes and getting away with it.
I've been broke for the last 2 years cos I went back to retrain for a completely different career which has cost me a fortune but I still paid my household tax as I feel we should all pay our way.
I wish they would just tax us all directly and get rid of these stealth taxes but it looks like that's not going to happen in the near future.

Out of interest how would people feel if they lowered the amount people received in the grant due to a tax shortfall due to lower than expected take up on household charge payments?

Ironé

Love the use of the word 'children' in this post - they are not children - they are adults :rolleyes:

I think it's a great move by Clare County Council. If you as a parent are applying for a grant from the county council for a member of your family yet have not paid a fee owed to them (for a measily 100 euros a year) then of course they are entitled to request it.

I work with a voluntary community group and can really see how budgets have been slashed in the county council here. Services are being withdrawn left right and centre. It's really depressing. We can either let our communities go to crap (that'll show the 'bankers') or stand together - get out and volunteer, make a contribution.

You may not agree with the charge but that's the joys of a democracy you can vote for someone else at the next election. Maybe they'll have a better idea of how to solve the mess we are in. Who created the mess is a topic for another thread but it's here and we aren't going to get out of it by simply complaining. Part of being a citizen is obeying the laws, paying taxes and fees like this. We'll get nowhere if there isn't some sense of civil responsibility. This is our country, these are our taxes and these are our county councils.

I'm reading today about how much I am going to have to pay for the property tax and it is depressing reading. But I'll pay it cause that's what being an Irish citizen is about. But come the next election I will be very interested to hear what the different parties will be offering.

Fenian Army

Conar wrote: »

I get where you are coming from to some extent but to be honest I'm getting kinda sick of people not paying taxes and getting away with it.
I've been broke for the last 2 years cos I went back to retrain for a completely different career which has cost me a fortune but I still paid my household tax as I feel we should all pay our way.
I wish they would just tax us all directly and get rid of these stealth taxes but it looks like that's not going to happen in the near future.

Out of interest how would people feel if they lowered the amount people received in the grant due to a tax shortfall due to lower than expected take up on household charge payments?

you are not paying your way, but the way of vulture capitalists, bondholders, speculators and gamblers!

Sala

People were warned local services would be cut back if they didn't pay. It is fairer to cut back services for those who didn't pay first than for those who did pay to be penalised to the same extent.

Fenian Army

Ironé wrote: »

Love the use of the word 'children' in this post - they are not children - they are adults :rolleyes:

I think it's a great move by Clare County Council. If you as a parent are applying for a grant from the county council for a member of your family yet have not paid a fee owed to them (for a measily 100 euros a year) then of course they are entitled to request it.

I work with a voluntary community group and can really see how budgets have been slashed in the county council here. Services are being withdrawn left right and centre. It's really depressing. We can either let our communities go to crap (that'll show the 'bankers') or stand together - get out and volunteer, make a contribution.

You may not agree with the charge but that's the joys of a democracy you can vote for someone else at the next election. Maybe they'll have a better idea of how to solve the mess we are in. Who created the mess is a topic for another thread but it's here and we aren't going to get out of it by simply complaining. Part of being a citizen is obeying the laws, paying taxes and fees like this. We'll get nowhere if there isn't some sense of civil responsibility. This is our country, these are our taxes and these are our county councils.

I'm reading today about how much I am going to have to pay for the property tax and it is depressing reading. But I'll pay it cause that's what being an Irish citizen is about. But come the next election I will be very interested to hear what the different parties will be offering.

Plenty of 17 year olds in college

Biggins

Ironé wrote: »

Love the use of the word 'children' in this post - they are not children - they are adults :rolleyes:

:rolleyes:

...get out and volunteer, make a contribution.

Many of us are, in many ways.
In fact everyone that buys something in this state if it has a VAT or tax on it, is!

The household charge is only NOW being used as a stick to punish offspring for the action of their elders!
Shame on those doing it.

If this was another past era, they might have been dragged out of their beds and put up against a wall for their actions!

mikom

Sala wrote: »

People were warned local services would be cut back if they didn't pay.

Not a local service....... and not funded by the local authority.

Essentially it's this.....

A local authority is blocking state funding for a persons education as they have a bone to pick with the persons parents.

Peanut2011

Conar wrote: »

I get where you are coming from to some extent but to be honest I'm getting kinda sick of people not paying taxes and getting away with it.
I've been broke for the last 2 years cos I went back to retrain for a completely different career which has cost me a fortune but I still paid my household tax as I feel we should all pay our way.
I wish they would just tax us all directly and get rid of these stealth taxes but it looks like that's not going to happen in the near future.

Out of interest how would people feel if they lowered the amount people received in the grant due to a tax shortfall due to lower than expected take up on household charge payments?

I guess people would not react well to that. Maybe you should ask how would people react to them showing where they spend the money, having the people in the government responsible for their actions, stop wasting money and stuffing their own pockets.

Primary example is the Cork's Lord Mayor to name but one. And the problem is that we have so many of examples like these.

Akrasia

Clare Co. Co. are saying that they have to cover the cost of Administering the grant for Clare and so this is why they feel they are right to withhold the grant (from the Dept of Education's budget) for those who haven't paid their household charge.

Clare Co. Co. are one of the worst authorities in Ireland at administering this grant, They are routinely amongst the slowest at sending out the grants to students.
When I was in College and completely penniless, (and my mother was a widow with no assets except her own home and with no income other than a small pension) Clare Co.Council did not approve my grant until December.

This meant I could not pay the registration fee, I could not get a student card, I could not get access to the college library for the first term of the year.

I could not pay for books, I could not pay my rent. I was very lucky that my landlord was a decent person who trusted me to pay him when the grant came through.

Clare Co. Council were extremely rude and unhelpful whenever I queried the grant or when I asked if I needed to send in any additional documentation. They asked me to get a statement of tax credits from my mother, It took a few weeks to get it, when i sent it in, they decided I needed a different version of the same document from a different tax office which took another few weeks to come.

This was well before the government cutbacks took effect. From seeing them in their office, they didn't exactly look overworked in there.

If Clare Co. Council think they can demand money from the people of clare at the threat of their childrens education, they should look very carefully at the way they provide their services and the way they treat people first.

bamboozle

Fenian Army wrote: »

you are not paying your way, but the way of vulture capitalists, bondholders, speculators and gamblers!

dare i suggest this could be ammended to we are paying for the ineptitude and incompetence of successive Bertie led governments which introduced idiotic legislation designed to create an inflated property boom while also installing a lacky as financial regulator to conveniently fall asleep at the wheel while the banks, property developers were leading a merrry dance around him until it was too late.

the same lacky is on a pension now of €147,000 PA.

bottom line is there a €15b gap between govt income and expenditure, public sector wages are off the agenda so the govt is forced to raise taxes and cut services.

Ironé

Fenian Army wrote: »

Plenty of 17 year olds in college

Thanks for that insight :rolleyes: