When will the Muslim world relax?

Freiheit

One American Israeli makes an insulting film,the entire Muslim world is in uproar. Killing Americans purely on grounds of a shared nationality?. Same way with the cartoons,why do they blame an entire nation on account of one person's cartoon?.

And anyway we all have to take insults,sometimes wrongly from time to time,part of that is legitimate though under freedom of speech.

I give credit to the Christians who distributed anti-gay leaflets at last weekends Pride Parade,they are bigots and responsible for hate and suicide,but nobody is physicaly afraid of them.

Why can't Islam behave a bit more rationaly?.

Gbear

Freiheit wrote: »

Why can't Islam behave a bit more rationaly?.

Because they're not rational people.

Rationality is something you have to work on. In quite a few muslim countries there's **** all education, especially for women (which would probably reign in the stupidity of the men), and it's replaced by what is currently a far less reasonable religion than most others in the world.

christmas2012

Education starts with the muslim school,and their teachings include their religion,which has hatred of anything non muslim and seeks to convert also..

Gurgle

christmas2012 wrote: »

teachings include their religion,which has hatred of anything non muslim

Maybe what the average Muslim finds upsetting is this kind of misinformed tripe.

Ant

Much of the Islamic world is at a stage of development similar to pre-capitalist Europe. Over the past couple of centuries, Christianity has lost its intellectual dominance in Europe.

However, it's worth bearing in mind that much Islamic violence is also a reaction against continued US imperialism. It's not just about religion.

christmas2012

Its not misinformed,its truth,something a lot of liberal secular people dont want to digest,right now in egypt they are burning books at kiosks,and car bombs are going off in iraq..

Try living there and saying islam is a peaceful religion.

old_aussie

When will the Muslim world relax?

When everyone is a muslim.

Then it will be a battle till there is only one type of muslim, radical sunni or radical shiite

robindch

Freiheit wrote: »

[...] why do they blame an entire nation on account of one person's cartoon?

I imagine because in many of the countries where protests are occurring, no publications or broadcasts are made without explicit government approval, hence many will believe that the US government is directly to blame. Alternatively, the local mullahs are there just stirring the pot and the lads decide to go out and sort out the closest Americans they can find.

Freiheit wrote: »

Why can't Islam behave a bit more rationaly?.

Because it's not in the interest of religious leaders that it does.

Liamario

I for one look forward to a nuclear holocaust; it's the only thing that's going to stop the crazy fundamentalists, east and west.

LeinsterDub

Freiheit wrote: »

One American Israeli .

Isn't this unclear? m.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/sep/13/anti-islamic-film-us-nakoula?cat=world&type=article
Most are saying coptic Christian now

christmas2012

christmas2012 wrote: »

Its not misinformed,its truth,something a lot of liberal secular people dont want to digest,right now in egypt they are burning books at kiosks,and car bombs are going off in iraq..

Try living there and saying islam is a peaceful religion.

There are roughly 1.6 billion Muslims on Earth. The violence broadcast on TV is perpetrated by a tiny, tiny percentage of the total. For the vast majority of its adherents it's a peaceful religion; for a minority it's an excuse to be a hateful individual, or to attempt to oppress others.

Still, as religions go, it's my least favourite. They (the extremists and religious leaders) need to relax and drag their dogmatic views forward by a half dozen centuries.

decimatio

I'm as vehemently anti-religious as they come and unapologetically so. But I do feel that we shouldn't label all of any adherents with the same brush.

I don't feel it's right to label all muslims as one thing or another because of the actions of a few or even of most if that were the case.

I know some muslims who I consider friends and while I couldn't disagree with them more about their religion I couldn't say they were anything short of genuinely decent people.

I realise that the OP probably isn't doing so and also that most people say 'muslim' or 'christian' when they might actually mean 'this group of muslims/christians' but I do feel that it's necessary to make it clear especially in relation to Muslims as too many people do label them all with the one brush and I think it muddies the waters too much.

Gurgle

Mexico and south Africa are both predominantly Christian and have the world's highest crime rates in general and murder rates in particular. What does this say about Christianity?
Nothing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_of_the_Book

In Islam, the Muslim scripture, the Qur'an, is taken to represent the completion of these scriptures, and to synthesize them as God's true, final, and eternal message to humanity. Because the People of the Book recognize the God of Abraham as the one and only god, as do Muslims, and they practice revealed faiths based on divine ordinances, tolerance and autonomy is accorded to them in societies governed by sharia (Islamic divine law).

Most of the western world's ignorant peasants (well represented on this thread) can't understand the difference between Arab and Muslim or Religion and Politics.

KindOfIrish

The current Islamic year is 1433. Christians "relaxed" in 20th century. So Muslims will reach the current christian stage in about 500 years!

golden lane

if the religion is the reason for murders and violent protests......then it is the religion that is to blame......

that is the sad part......

there is only one religion in this world.....it is called, disappointment.....

Gurgle

KindOfIrish wrote: »

The current Islamic year is 1433. Christians "relaxed" in 20th century. So Muslims will reach the current christian stage in about 500 years!

We should warn them about inquisitions, kiddie fiddlers, hitler youth etc

Also, the Jews should have a pan-galactic empire by now as they're centuries ahead of Christians.

christmas2012

For the vast majority of its adherents it's a peaceful religion; for a minority it's an excuse to be a hateful individual, or to attempt to oppress others.

Still, as religions go, it's my least favourite. They (the extremists and religious leaders) need to relax and drag their dogmatic views forward by a half dozen centuries

Its not as simple as being moderate or peaceful,the people there have to adhere to the laws of the religion,in this religion there are laws to be followed..how peaceful can a relgion be with legal beheadings for perceived social misdoings,such as a downs syndrome girl ripping up the koran,or amputations of those who may or may not have shoplifted and probably did bc they were so poor..

It doesnt seem like a religion of peace where women can get 100 lashes for a sideways glance or an insuborndinate worker to an employer etc..

Dades

I think the real comparison here is between Muslim extremists and their counterparts in other religions. Perhaps the thread should be read in that light.

That said, extremists don't relax by definition...

christmas2012

christmas2012 wrote: »

Its not as simple as being moderate or peaceful,the people there have to adhere to the laws of the religion,in this religion there are laws to be followed..how peaceful can a relgion be with legal beheadings for perceived social misdoings,such as a downs syndrome girl ripping up the koran,or amputations of those who may or may not have shoplifted and probably did bc they were so poor..

It doesnt seem like a religion of peace where women can get 100 lashes for a sideways glance or an insuborndinate worker to an employer etc..

Is that not a criticism against the governments of particular Islamic countries (countries that enforce Sharia law, for example)? You can hardly blame the average citizen for the harshness of their government; the actions of a government not necessarily representative of the views of the average citizen.

It's extremists that give Islam a bad name, not its moderate or liberal followers. Given that the extremists are a minority, it's unfair to paint the majority with their actions and views.

Wibbs

Gurgle wrote: »

Mexico and south Africa are both predominantly Christian and have the world's highest crime rates in general and murder rates in particular. What does this say about Christianity?
Nothing.

Very much so and I'd echo decimatio's take on not painting all adherents with the same brush, however the Mexican and SA crime rates have absolutely nothing to do with some religious interpretation, even in a sideways manner like in Northern Ireland. Kinda apples and oranges comparison wise.

Put it another way if Libya was a christian country would they be killing people over this? Sure you get the whackjobs in the US attacking abortion clinics and trying to turn education back a century, but not nearly to the degree seen in the Islamic world, especially in the Arab Islamic world(your Malays for example seem significantly more levelheaded on average).

Now Christians have killed millions, hell Buddhists have killed a fair few throughout history, however they really had to bend their own rules to do so. Neither Jesus, nor Buddha killed people, nor had people killed. One ws executed, the other lived into old age preaching. Both were poor(or ended up that way). Muhammed, on the other hand if we're to take the various biographies of him did have people killed and led an army of conquest and pillage and slavery(setting down rules on how to prosecute such things). That's a helluva difference and that background makes it a lot easier for adherents to act the maggot, even if the majority, the vast majority don't. Even that vast majority because of this background may tacitly turn a blind eye even grudgingly support the nutters, especially in the face of western aggression.

old hippy

christmas2012 wrote: »

Education starts with the muslim school,and their teachings include their religion,which has hatred of anything non muslim and seeks to convert also..

This applies to all Muslims globally, does it? Mistruths and scaremongering, as usual.

christmas2012

Its not a mistruth,and there is no scaremongering,im just saying what i have read so far in Ayaan Hirsi Alis book infidel,and she is an ex muslim.She states that muslim schools teach hateful things about jews and infidels,are you going to call that a lie too?

old hippy

christmas2012 wrote: »

Its not misinformed,its truth,something a lot of liberal secular people dont want to digest,right now in egypt they are burning books at kiosks,and car bombs are going off in iraq..

Try living there and saying islam is a peaceful religion.

It's your "truth". It's certainly not universal. You do this on every thread, christmas. It's like hearing Wizard every year, boring and predictable.

robindch

decimatio wrote: »

I'm as vehemently anti-religious as they come and unapologetically so. But I do feel that we shouldn't label all of any adherents with the same brush.

While I agree with you in principle, I haven't heard many islamic leaders standing up and condemning the violence and neither am I aware of substantial numbers of muslims anywhere condemning it either.

While the violence is certainly perpetrated by an unpleasant minority, its presence seems to be generally tolerated by the complicity of the majority.

MagicMarker

old hippy wrote: »

It's your "truth". It's certainly not universal. You do this on every thread, christmas. It's like hearing Wizard every year, boring and predictable.

Ah here, don't diss Wizard.

decimatio

robindch wrote: »

While the violence is certainly perpetrated by an unpleasant minority, its presence seems to be generally tolerated by the complicity of the majority.

You just perfectly defined my problem with moderates of any religion. They may be quite tame themselves but I see it as a form of 'gateway extremism' or as a protective shield for such elements.

seamus

christmas2012 wrote: »

Its not a mistruth,and there is no scaremongering,im just saying what i have read so far in Ayaan Hirsi Alis book infidel,and she is an ex muslim.She states that muslim schools teach hateful things about jews and infidels,are you going to call that a lie too?

You are aware that Irish catholics schools up until very recently taught hateful things about protestants and muslims? They probably still do teach hateful things about atheists.

I do agree strongly with decimatio in that it's the moderates in any religion who allow the extremists to exist. Their constant retort that they are peace-loving only serves to shield the extremist elements from being outed. Even if they consider the other person to be "extreme" they still think of them as "one of us" as so will refuse to expose the extremist element.

It's not unique to religion to be fair, it's the same of any distinct group. Travellers have the exact same problem.

old hippy

robindch wrote: »

While I agree with you in principle, I haven't heard many islamic leaders standing up and condemning the violence and neither am I aware of substantial numbers of muslims anywhere condemning it either.

While the violence is certainly perpetrated by an unpleasant minority, its presence seems to be generally tolerated by the complicity of the majority.

http://www.voanews.com/content/muslims-religion-attack/1506903.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/13/us/american-muslim-leaders-condemn-attacks.html

And harking back to Sept 11th 2001

http://kurzman.unc.edu/islamic-statements-against-terrorism/

Also

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_attitudes_towards_terrorism

krudler

Liamario wrote: »

I for one look forward to a nuclear holocaust; it's the only thing that's going to stop the crazy fundamentalists, east and west.

or the zombies

martingriff

old_aussie wrote: »

When will the Muslim world relax?

When everyone is a muslim.

Then it will be a battle till there is only one type of muslim, radical sunni or radical shiite

Wasn't Christianity the same for centuaries. I think your description of 2 types of muslim is an unfair generlisation.

Gbear

While it's obvious that most muslims are decent people in general they're quite clearly less decent than religious people in the developed world.
But then again you've got Christian fundamentalists murdering gays in Africa, as well as the butchering of albino people for use as magic artifacts.

The important difference seems to be about education and prosperity.
You could well argue that Islam presents a singularly powerful force in suppressing education, particularly in a gender-apartheid sense but that you have more Muslims being dicks than Christians in developed countries probably isn't down to religion per se.
It's always been the case that de-humanising and the general erosion of empathy towards people makes people act awful towards others - genocide is usually what follows. I would argue that such empathy erosion happens more easily with poorly educated people and that's what leads to the kind of barbarism in murdering people because of cartoons.

The progressiveness of religion seems to be more driven by how progressive it's adherents are, rather than the other way around.
Christianity isn't actually all that much more reasonable than Islam if you were to actually follow it to the letter. Education is the reason why we don't.

christmas2012

You are aware that Irish catholics schools up until very recently taught hateful things about protestants and muslims? They probably still do teach hateful things about atheists.

So that makes the muslim religion okay to spread and teach hate of others?Youre saying one really is as bad as the other,where did catholics go out and behead people for perceived social misdoings or lived a little outside the bible?

Gordon

Freiheit wrote: »

One American Israeli makes an insulting film

But did he though?!

The very first time I saw that POS movie 'trailer', it was so obvious that there was a lot of overdubbing, replacing the character's original name with Mohamed (I thought the original name was 'Georgy', going by my really bad lip reading, but I'm sure I'm wrong!). Also, a 14 minute trailer with absolutely no context, makes absolutely no sense, it all just doesn't make sense. I reckon this is just a massive troll, some poor idiot saw this guy's real POS film from a decade ago, decides to show the rubbish to his mates and ups the game by trolling muslims by overdubbing.

Why on earth these demonstrators actually believe that this is:
a) A serious film, not some single crackpot idiot madman's joke
b) America's fault

I have no idea, but relaxing a little bit, and taking off the rage tinted lenses would be a start.

old hippy

christmas2012 wrote: »

So that makes the muslim religion okay to spread and teach hate of others?Youre saying one really is as bad as the other,where did catholics go out and behead people for perceived social misdoings or lived a little outside the bible?

Do you know any Muslims? Have you Muslims friends, colleagues, neighbours, family members? Do you think generalising, spreading falsehoods and hysterical scaremongering is useful?

christmas2012

Do you know any Muslims? Have you Muslims friends, colleagues, neighbours, family members?

No im not muslim,so im not surrounded by muslim friends,colleages and neighbours,i dont live in a muslim neighbourhood.But i have met muslims,and one had tried to convert me to their faith,but to no avail.

Im not spreading mistruths,you keep saying that but have nothing to back it up,in muslim schools,(such as was aired on dispatches on channel 4 in 2008),they regulary spread hateful things about jews and non believers.Are you going to hysterically deny that too and call me a liar?

A book you could do with reading is infidel by Ayaan Hirsi Ali,she is an ex muslim and has a good inside track on it..

fatmammycat

christmas2012 wrote: »

No im not muslim,so im not surrounded by muslim friends,colleages and neighbours,i dont live in a muslim neighbourhood.But i have met muslims,and one had tried to convert me to their faith,but to no avail.

Im not spreading mistruths,you keep saying that but have nothing to back it up,in muslim schools,(such as was aired on dispatches on channel 4 in 2008),they regulary spread hateful things about jews and non believers.Are you going to hysterically deny that too and call me a liar?

A book you could do with reading is infidel by Ayaan Hirsi Ali,she is an ex muslim and has a good inside track on it..

Have you read her book?

Sycopat

robindch wrote: »

While the violence is certainly perpetrated by an unpleasant minority, its presence seems to be generally tolerated by the complicity of the majority.

http://www.buzzfeed.com/jtes/12-photos-of-benghazi-citizens-apologizing-to-amer?fb_ref=recbar

Giruilla

What follows, there is no doubt in it.

Muslims are at base level irrational people and can only be discussed on levels of rationality. Muslims who attack other people based on shared nationality etc can only be thought of as scumbags.

Zombrex

Freiheit wrote: »

One American Israeli makes an insulting film,the entire Muslim world is in uproar. Killing Americans purely on grounds of a shared nationality?. Same way with the cartoons,why do they blame an entire nation on account of one person's cartoon?.

And anyway we all have to take insults,sometimes wrongly from time to time,part of that is legitimate though under freedom of speech.

I give credit to the Christians who distributed anti-gay leaflets at last weekends Pride Parade,they are bigots and responsible for hate and suicide,but nobody is physicaly afraid of them.

Why can't Islam behave a bit more rationaly?.

Because they are in poor destabilized countries with a lot of social problems.

You will notice the riots directed at America are happening in certain parts of the Muslim world, and are being made up of particular demographics. Middle class Muslims in Sydney haven't been burning down American embassies.

Just as with the riots in Dublin or London a few years ago, these things really don't have a lot to do with the stated grievance and a lot to do with large groups of angry disenfranchised young men who frankly don't need much of an excuse to go out onto the streets to express this anger.

who_me

Freiheit wrote: »

One American Israeli makes an insulting film,the entire Muslim world is in uproar. Killing Americans purely on grounds of a shared nationality?. Same way with the cartoons,why do they blame an entire nation on account of one person's cartoon?.

And anyway we all have to take insults,sometimes wrongly from time to time,part of that is legitimate though under freedom of speech.

I give credit to the Christians who distributed anti-gay leaflets at last weekends Pride Parade,they are bigots and responsible for hate and suicide,but nobody is physicaly afraid of them.

Why can't Islam behave a bit more rationaly?.

I don't know... try making a film ridiculing - say - another race, and see what reception that gets. Look at the LA riots, triggered by just one individual's case.

People are offended when their shared identity is insulted/demeaned. Yes, the reaction in this specific case is on the extreme end of the scale, but it's not at all unique. Always has been thus, always will be.

Sycopat

Giruilla wrote: »

What follows, there is no doubt in it.

People are at base level irrational people and can only be discussed on levels of rationality. People who attack other people based on shared nationality etc can only be thought of as scumbags.

fixed that for you


We can (And I believe should) try to be rational, but in general humans aren't very good at it.

I do condemn these attacks and the people who carried them out, but I don't like this idea that it's the fault of 'muslims in general' as opposed to 'fanatical bigots'.

Gurgle

Sycopat wrote: »

I don't like this idea that it's the fault of 'muslims in general' as opposed to 'fanatical bigots'.

Mr. Morsi agrees

christmas2012

I do condemn these attacks and the people who carried them out, but I don't like this idea that it's the fault of 'muslims in general' as opposed to 'fanatical bigots'.

You dont seem to see that the muslim religion is full of hatred,and fanatical bigots.Do you also deny there is a huge problem with the religion and how it fails to settle into western countries,take for one example,malmo in sweden..

Middle class Muslims in Sydney haven't been burning down American embassies.

Middle class muslims that have embraced capitalism,and would be viewed as lay muslims,or non practicing muslims,as to have a full time job,they wouldnt be on the prayer mat five times a day..

Giruilla

Sycopat wrote: »

fixed that for you


We can (And I believe should) try to be rational, but in general humans aren't very good at it.

I do condemn these attacks and the people who carried them out, but I don't like this idea that it's the fault of 'muslims in general' as opposed to 'fanatical bigots'.

I don't think you realise that nothing I said disagrees with you

swimming in a sea

I didn't like Hillary Clinton's comments about the islam movie. She should be supporting american peoples right to freedom of speech, she should have kept her personal feelings to herself.

Worst thing the west can do is appease these nut jobs.

christmas2012

Worst thing the west can do is appease these nut jobs.

Yes appeasing can be seen as a sign of weakness,evensofar as in invite..

Nodin

Freiheit wrote: »

One American Israeli makes an insulting film,.............?.

He's not Israeli, or Jewish.

THE KEY figure behind the film that has sparked violence across much of the Muslim world, including the murder of the US ambassador to Libya and three of his colleagues, has been identified by US law enforcement officers.
He is Nakoula Basseley Nakoula (55), who lives in southern California. He is a convicted fraudster who has used multiple identities to conceal his involvement is various nefarious activities.
In 2010, he pleaded no contest (effectively admitting guilt) to bank fraud charges in California and was ordered to pay more than $790,000 in restitution. He was sentenced to 21 months in jail and ordered not to use computers or the internet for five years without the approval of his probation officer.
Initially, the film was ascribed to one Sam Bacile, described in some reports as a 52-year-old Israeli- American real estate developer from California. Israel’s foreign ministry said there was no record of a Sam Bacile with Israeli citizenship, however.
It appears “Bacile” is a persona used by Nakoula. The Associated Press traced a mobile phone number used by Bacile to a southern California house where Nakoula was found.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/world/2012/0914/1224324008929.html

seamus

Sycopat wrote: »

I do condemn these attacks and the people who carried them out, but I don't like this idea that it's the fault of 'muslims in general' as opposed to 'fanatical bigots'.

Despite my previous post in this thread, there is a fair argument that while the moderate population provides a moral shield for the extremists, that shield may only exist (in part) because the extremists put it there.

If you think about Northern Ireland at the height of the troubles, while the IRA no doubt had a good level of support, there would also have been a not insignificant number in the "moderate" community who detested the fighting and the killing, but felt themselves trapped and unable to do anything about it. If they were to speak out, they would be afraid of incurring the wrath of their community (as well as the extremists). This could even go as far as covering up for extremists and assisting them because they felt they had no other choice.

It's a continuing theme throughout history that the majority are often kept paralysed and complicit through the use of fear by a minority, so there is a good argument that Muslim communities suffer the same problem. The importance of community to an individual shouldn't really be underestimated; many, many people will do things which they know to be morally and ethically wrong because to go against the grain is to risk losing the support of that community.

Zombrex

christmas2012 wrote: »

Middle class muslims that have embraced capitalism,and would be viewed as lay muslims,or non practicing muslims,as to have a full time job,they wouldnt be on the prayer mat five times a day..

You can't be a Muslim if you have a full time job? What?

christmas2012

What im trying to say is that it is difficult if you want to be on the prayer mat five times a day - not that its impossible or anything - i dont think it is.

yellowlabrador

I think another influencing factor is the average population and the growth in size. You have a large population of unemployed under 30's, with too much time on their hands and a good income. I know that in the UAE, every citizen gets an automatic payment from their government, whether they need it or not.