Shooting in the French Alps

Chuck Stone

Mossad would have done a much more clinical execution if they wanted the Father - this is family shit imo.

M cebee

the cyclist was executed but the girl was spared
does that point to family conflict then as some have suggested?

Corkfeen

M cebee wrote: »

the cyclist was executed but the girl was spared
does that point to family conflict then as some have suggested?

The girl's survival strikes me as more of an accident. He had shot her once but i'm assuming that their attention was redirected to the cyclist and they simply assumed that the girl was dead. It's an awful affair to be honest, those children are never going to recover..

Missymoohaa

brimal wrote: »

Can you guys please give one piece of evidence, or even a motive, that suggests it was Mossad that carried this out?


Police are currently investigating a family feud involving money.

Prosecutor Eric Maillaud says "I won't say it was professional, what I will say is it was tremendous savagery. And what is certain is that somebody wanted to kill," he said.

Police also confirm 15 bullet casings were found at the scene. Is 3/4 bullets per victim too much for a professional hit?

The car doors were still locked, so I'd imagine some bullets were used to break the glass first before shooting the poor victims, 5 were used on the cyclist and the little 7 yr old was hit once in the shoulder, I'd imagine she tried to escape the car, pure speculation I know but that's my tuppence worth.

Missymoohaa

seamus wrote: »

He would have been at range, so the shooter would have to aim for the body. One, two or even three shots may not have been enough to stop the cyclist from fleeing. I don't find the five shots all that surprising if his aim is to kill the guy.

A lot of modern vehicles have an auto-lock feature which prevent the doors from being opened from the outside. A passenger can open the door to get out, but the door will lock again when it's closed. Whether it will lock on a BMW when the engine is running but stationary, I don't know.

My car is only a Yaris and doors lock automatically once the engine is started, you can release locks yourself from inside only and the locks only automatically release when engine is switched off, the BMW could have been like this.

Pottler

Feckin Jason Bournes off again. Or a Jason Bourne.:)

Missymoohaa

Missymoohaa wrote: »

My car is only a Yaris and doors lock automatically once the engine is started, you can release locks yourself from inside only and the locks only automatically release when engine is switched off, the BMW could have been like this.

Same with a family member's Citroen C5 so I'd imagine a BMW would be the same.

Pottler

If it was a professional killing, perhaps the shooter draws the line at kids. He wouldn't be the first.

goodie2shoes

the reason the girls survived imho is the killer most probably thought he had killed the eldest one (maybe she was unconscious or played dead?), and he was unaware of the presence of the younger one (after all she hid from the Police for 8 hours).

a hit man/men would have been contracted to kill the entire family, and he/they thought they had done that.

whoever took out this contract will not be best pleased.

goodie2shoes

Deleted User wrote: »

Same with a family member's Citroen C5 so I'd imagine a BMW would be the same.

BMers only automatically lock from the inside, if they are set to do so. (the default position would be not to automatically lock).
and only then will they lock after the car has driven for about 50 yards.

at least that's how mine operates.

Pottler

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Mossad would have done a much more clinical execution if they wanted the Father - this is family shit imo.

Perhaps they occasionally "subbie" work out? Accuracy strongly suggests military but then in that region there's an awful lot of ex-military and national service types. It is far from easy to hit someone dead center of head when they're moving and to do it several times over requires a marksman. If the girl was running on uneven ground and stumbled or shifted as she ran, a round aimed center mass could easily hit a shoulder and be assumed a killing shot. Presumably also the cyclist, probably tired and not paying attention would have stumbled across the scene, pulled up short and then turned to flee, again, a hard target to hit hence the five shots(or there were multiple shooters and all loosed off a 3 round burst, some didn't hit). Dis-information would be to point blame elsewhere, ie, a family row, robbery or suchlike. Looks pretty clinical to me, ambush on a quiet road, no living witnesses(fail) and no suspects, clean get-away, almost.
Child living is probably a cause for a lot of discomfort somwhere at the moment. Someones getting a bollocking. Also, because the assumed scenario would be a close range multiple shooting, somthing light with a large mag and small caliber would be the choice, again, not the best when the range increases(hence the child surviving) and the cyclist taking multiple shots to stop him. Any mention of what caliber of weapon was used?
If the fleeing girl was dropped and hit her head hard on the way down, would that not explain the head injury? Or if she ran, fell, struck her head, adrenaline kicked in and she rose and ran again only to be shot and presumed dead/wounded and then the cyclist appearred, precluding a tidying up and finishing off. 5 is a lot of people to track and deal with even if there were multiple(likly 3 if ex-military?) shooters. If there was only one shooter, he's Rambo, or a version of it. If the target had security concerns at home and he was taken out whilst on holiday abroad, it point to either an organisation or a state act, simply for logistics, weapons, vehicles, comms all would have to be sourced or brought to the ambush site so that precludes commercial airlines/a family member and disposal of vehicles afterwards and exfil from the country would require documents and transport usually beyond the capacity of an individual. Other explanation is a local nutter, but nutters are never of this standard and usually feck up and miss. If the ex-RAF lad suddenly has a heart attack or crashes his car, it's fait a complis. Also, if Pottler vanishes, I leave everything to the cat!
A green 4*4 would fit the bill for ex-military(familiarity/creatures of habit), but speeding from the scene would not, it would be slow and calm. That road is also perfect, winding, semi-isolated with lots of blind turns. If they are a wealthy family and an enemy hired a killer it's the perfect location to choose and France is very porous when it comes to borders for a route out. You can go to a lot of places from there.

weldoninhio

Around the 2 shooters theory, my theory would be that there could have been 1 highly trained shooter, who took out the family in the car, with a driver/accomplice waiting.

As main shooter is taking out family, cyclist arrives, 2nd shooter, less skilled, gets out and shoots him 5 times (this would suggest he is not as cool under pressure/well-trained), he spots girl running away and shoots her hitting her in shoulder. He goes over to see if she is dead, doesn't want to touch her(DNA etc), so kicks her violently a few times. She doesn't make a sound/resist, he presumes she is dead, makes his way back to car, confirms that he has killed both other targets to main marksman, off they go.

hiram

Pottler wrote: »

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Mossad would have done a much more clinical execution if they wanted the Father - this is family shit imo.

Perhaps they occasionally "subbie" work out? Accuracy strongly suggests military but then in that region there's an awful lot of ex-military and national service types. It is far from easy to hit someone dead center of head when they're moving and to do it several times over requires a marksman. If the girl was running on uneven ground and stumbled or shifted as she ran, a round aimed center mass could easily hit a shoulder and be assumed a killing shot. Presumably also the cyclist, probably tired and not paying attention would have stumbled across the scene, pulled up short and then turned to flee, again, a hard target to hit hence the five shots(or there were multiple shooters and all loosed off a 3 round burst, some didn't hit). Dis-information would be to point blame elsewhere, ie, a family row, robbery or suchlike. Looks pretty clinical to me, ambush on a quiet road, no living witnesses(fail) and no suspects, clean get-away, almost.
Child living is probably a cause for a lot of discomfort somwhere at the moment. Someones getting a bollocking. Also, because the assumed scenario would be a close range multiple shooting, somthing light with a large mag and small caliber would be the choice, again, not the best when the range increases(hence the child surviving) and the cyclist taking multiple shots to stop him. Any mention of what caliber of weapon was used?
If the fleeing girl was dropped and hit her head hard on the way down, would that not explain the head injury? Or if she ran, fell, struck her head, adrenaline kicked in and she rose and ran again only to be shot and presumed dead/wounded and then the cyclist appearred, precluding a tidying up and finishing off. 5 is a lot of people to track and deal with even if there were multiple(likly 3 if ex-military?) shooters. If there was only one shooter, he's Rambo, or a version of it. If the target had security concerns at home and he was taken out whilst on holiday abroad, it point to either an organisation or a state act, simply for logistics, weapons, vehicles, comms all would have to be sourced or brought to the ambush site so that precludes commercial airlines/a family member and disposal of vehicles afterwards and exfil from the country would require documents and transport usually beyond the capacity of an individual. Other explanation is a local nutter, but nutters are never of this standard and usually feck up and miss. If the ex-RAF lad suddenly has a heart attack or crashes his car, it's fait a complis. Also, if Pottler vanishes, I leave everything to the cat!
A green 4*4 would fit the bill for ex-military(familiarity/creatures of habit), but speeding from the scene would not, it would be slow and calm. That road is also perfect, winding, semi-isolated with lots of blind turns. If they are a wealthy family and an enemy hired a killer it's the perfect location to choose and France is very porous when it comes to borders for a route out. You can go to a lot of places from there.[/Qote]

Very insightful. Familiar train of thought.

goodie2shoes

the HOW is largely incidental imo, the WHY is the big question.

my mind is totally open to all possibilities, as should be the coppers, as to be otherwise will compromise their investigation.

any and all theories ought to be considered.

eg. right-wing nutters, drug dealers, family feud, Mossad, Iraqi bad-blood, lone pshchopath, disaffected ex-business associate etc.

most likely this crime may never be solved.:(

Pottler

goodie2shoes wrote: »

the HOW is largely incidental imo, the WHY is the big question.

my mind is totally open to all possibilities, as should be the coppers, as to be otherwise will compromise their investigation.

any and all theories ought to be considered.

eg. right-wing nutters, drug dealers, family feud, Mossad, Iraqi bad-blood, lone pshchopath, disaffected ex-business associate etc.

most likely this crime may never be solved.:(

Ah, it'll be solved, always is. We might not be informed of the fact though. Mushroom factor might be applied.

Wade in the Sea

Wonder if he knew David Kelly?

Pottler

Wade in the Sea wrote: »

Wonder if he knew David Kelly?

Unlikly they'd use the same cowboys twice.:D Never know though. There's some lad from Essex in a Focus with no VIM's reading this on a new, unreleased Nokia via satellite with a big scowl on his face as we speak, no doubt.

wendell borton

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

He worked in the aeronautical industry and was born in Baghdad, and seems to have fled Iraq during the last few years of Saddams reign.

'Aeronautical' is often a code word for other things, so possibly a nuclear or weapons scientist?

Not the first engineer to have worked for Iraq to die in mysterious circumstance, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Bull#Assassination.

Degag

Pottler wrote: »

Feckin Jason Bournes off again. Or a Jason Bourne.:)

If for the fact he were not in prison, i'd be thinking Carlos.

Pottler

Degag wrote: »

If for the fact he were not in prison, i'd be thinking Carlos.

Carlos was a wannabe.:D Spoilt too. Waay overrated.

Madam_X

seamus wrote: »

Heh, there's no magic formula of "hit once for every hour you want them to forget".

So Ian Fleming lied to me...?! :eek::(

No I'd agree all right with the theory that they didn't intend to kill the little one, just wanted to knock her out. Makes the most sense if it was a planned hit job.

But then again, why kill the cyclist?

Fecking cold, man... :-/

goodie2shoes

Pottler wrote: »

Ah, it'll be solved, always is. We might not be informed of the fact though. Mushroom factor might be applied.

it's an uncomfortable fact that many of these execution type murders are NEVER solved and the culprits are never brought to book.

however in this case i really hope 'n pray they get the baaast@*ds!

The story gets weirder.. the second woman had a Swedish passport and when asked, the 4 year old child couldn't name her and was unfamiliar with who she was. Wonder what her connection to all of this was.

French police are liaising with the Swedish authorities as they try to unravel the mystery of the French Alps shooting .

Saad al-Hilli and his wife Iqbal were shot dead in their BMW on Wednesday during a camping holiday. A third body was also found in the car - an older woman with a Swedish passport who had also been shot at least three times.

Source: Mirror

Pottler

All shot multiple times, but significantly, twice to the head. Or as the Army call it, "double tapped". So, a pro.

It makes the fact that the child was shot once in the shoulder even stranger. If they definitely wanted her dead, they would have shot her in the head too, like they did the adults.

Was she shot in the shoulder? I think that was reported at some point.

Madam_X

Yeh she was, in addition to the beating to her head. Medics say it's a miracle she survived.

Pottler

Not a top priority for "humane" reasons? Had a go and failed, perhaps deliberatly? Stone cold as anyone might be, everyone draws a line, so maybe shooting to the shoulder was a "boss pleaser" - warped as that might sound, "I tried and missed Boss, sorry about that"??noone is totally cold. Or the kid was at a distance and a three round burst was fired, bracketing the target left, center, right, and only one hit. If it was a short like a 30 round Uzi or HK then once the range goes above "very close", it's a bit of a lottery as to what gets hit and what gets missed. Also, defining "head injuries" is tough, who knows what happened in a paniced situation - you can bash your head pretty good when running in a blind panic and interpretng those injuries afterwards is half a guess at best.

Madam_X

Madam_X wrote: »

Yeh she was, in addition to the beating to her head. Medics say it's a miracle she survived.

That doesn't necessarily make sense though - why did they beat her around the head, unless it's possible that they ran out of bullets by that time?

And now I realized that I'm talking about why an 8 year old child wasn't shot in the head. I need a cup of tea ..

Whippersnapper

From The Guardian today:

Swedish authorities have confirmed that a passport discovered on the scene corresponds to a Swedish person living in Sweden, but as yet no absolute connection has been made between the older woman in the car and either the passport or between her and the rest of the victims, the local prosecutor said.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/sep/09/alps-killer-motive-baffles-police?newsfeed=true


So this woman may not be the owner of the passport?

Also, the two women and the child were in the back of the car while the father was in the driver's seat. That means the 7 year old was in the passenger seat? Is that odd? Surely one of the women would have been seated in the front.

ArmaniJeanss

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

He worked in the aeronautical industry and was born in Baghdad, and seems to have fled Iraq during the last few years of Saddams reign.

'Aeronautical' is often a code word for other things, so possibly a nuclear or weapons scientist?

Seaneh wrote: »

Massive jump in logic there.

UK edition of Sunday Mirror headlining a (very inconclusive) nuclear link.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/french-alps-shooting-nuclear-link-1314562