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Shooting in the French Alps

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    #152
    davet82
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,753 ✭✭✭davet82


    Bipolar Joe wrote: »
    You all need to lay off the Criminal Minds / John Grisham.

    We can crack this if you were just a little more positive!! :rolleyes:


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    #153
    Dave!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,857 ✭✭✭✭Dave!


    Where's Sherlock Holmes when you need him?

    edit
    davet82 wrote: »
    We can crack this if you were just a little more positive!! :rolleyes:

    Oh, there he is :D


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    #154
    Bipolar Joe
    Registered Users Posts: 3,443 ✭✭✭Bipolar Joe


    davet82 wrote: »
    We can crack this if you were just a little more positive!! :rolleyes:

    AH can't even solve the mystery of what threads should be in it, this one is a no-hoper, lads.


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    #155
    davet82
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,753 ✭✭✭davet82


    Dave! wrote: »
    Where's Sherlock Holmes when you need him?

    edit



    Oh, there he is :D

    why thank you :cool:

    i think :rolleyes:


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    #156
    midlandsmissus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,838 ✭✭✭midlandsmissus


    Bipolar Joe wrote: »
    You all need to lay off the Criminal Minds / John Grisham.

    :D

    This might sound a bit grim but I'm so interested in cases like these where this is no evident conclusion of what happened. I have such an analytical mind, and I could spend ages looking at cases like these and looking at all the evidence, and trying to figure out what happened, and who did it.

    I've spent evenings looking at cases such as Jonbenet Ramsey/ Meredith Kercher etc.

    Maybe I do need to lay off the John Grisham alright :) But I think it's good for your brain to weigh up evidence and try to find out what happened.


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    #157
    Quorum
    Closed Accounts Posts: 474 ✭✭Quorum


    midlandsmissus wrote: »
    What I find mindblowing is thinking that the first cyclist overtook the second cyclist and was shot dead when arriving at the wrong time. Then the second cyclist found all the bodies. It could so easily have been the second cyclist killed.

    It's one of those...if that happened 5 seconds later, or if he hadn't overtook, things where you're like woah.

    Well, the second cyclist might not have got caught even if the other guy hadn't overtaken him, as he might have been going at his max speed. So both cyclists might have come on the immediate aftermath.


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    #158
    Uriel.
    Registered Users Posts: 8,061 ✭✭✭Uriel.


    It still doesn't make sense to leave the child alive - she's old enough to have mind capable of providing evidence as a witness. Ok, the shooter(s) were possibly wearing balaclavas. But the child may be able to provide insight into the getaway vehicle (if there was one), how the executions were undertaken and might at least unravel some parts of the mystery and/or could lead the police to track the shooter(s) and/or establish potential motive.


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    #159
    davet82
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,753 ✭✭✭davet82


    midlandsmissus wrote: »
    :D

    This might sound a bit grim but I'm so interested in cases like these where this is no evident conclusion of what happened. I have such an analytical mind, and I could spend ages looking at cases like these and looking at all the evidence, and trying to figure out what happened, and who did it.

    I've spent evenings looking at cases such as Jonbenet Ramsey/ Meredith Kercher etc.

    Maybe I do need to lay off the John Grisham alright :) But I think it's good for your brain to weigh up evidence and try to find out what happened.

    will you be my watson? ;)


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    #160
    davet82
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,753 ✭✭✭davet82


    Uriel. wrote: »
    It still doesn't make sense to leave the child alive - she's old enough to have mind capable of providing evidence as a witness. Ok, the shooter(s) were possibly wearing balaclavas. But the child may be able to provide insight into the getaway vehicle (if there was one), how the executions were undertaken and might at least unravel some parts of the mystery and/or could lead the police to track the shooter(s) and/or establish potential motive.

    i'm sure a 7 year old could tell you what language was being spoken too, that would be a big insight


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    #161
    Uriel.
    Registered Users Posts: 8,061 ✭✭✭Uriel.


    davet82 wrote: »
    i'm sure a 7 year old could tell you what language was being spoken too, that would be a big insight

    exactly, or if her parents said anything during the attack or if the shooter(s) said anything etc...

    by the way the car is positioned in the aerial photography it would appear that they at least tried to escape. If the father was expecting something untoward could happen (say as a result of political reasons), he could have being saying stuff in the car( like "this is Mossad, because I provided nuclear assistance to Iran" or "fúck my stinking brother said he'd kill me for the family fortune" etc...) while he was trying to reverse the car. The shooter wouldn't know this. The child might remember some of this and relay it to the police and bang you got huge leads.


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    #162
    brimal
    Registered Users Posts: 1,216 ✭✭✭brimal


    Why all the focus on the bullet hitting the girl?

    Could it be that this bullet was meant for the adults and amidst all the chaos inside the car the shooter missed and it hit the girl? People are talking like the shooter deliberately aimed for the girl. I haven't read much police reports so correct me if I'm wrong.


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    #163
    Bipolar Joe
    Registered Users Posts: 3,443 ✭✭✭Bipolar Joe


    brimal wrote: »
    Why all the focus on the bullet hitting the girl?

    Could it be that this bullet was meant for the adults and amidst all the chaos inside the car the shooter missed and it hit the girl? People are talking like the shooter deliberately aimed for the girl. I haven't read much police reports so correct me if I'm wrong.

    Because that's what makes the story exciting.


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    #164
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    brimal wrote: »
    Why all the focus on the bullet hitting the girl?
    Because it doesn't fit with the rest of the scene.
    Three clinical executions, one murder with five bullets on target, four of them at range. Very clean, very professional murders.
    And then a little girl who's been hit in the head with something and shot in the shoulder. A clumsy assault.

    It's just weird.


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    #165
    The Big Red Button
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,390 ✭✭✭The Big Red Button


    seamus wrote: »
    Because it doesn't fit with the rest of the scene.
    Three clinical executions, one murder with five bullets on target, four of them at range. Very clean, very professional murders.
    And then a little girl who's been hit in the head with something and shot in the shoulder. A clumsy assault.

    It's just weird.

    Do they know for sure she was hit on the head though?

    She could have bashed her head off the frame of the car herself, when getting out of it while the shooting was going on all around her.

    Or, if he shot her as she ran from the car, chances are she'd have fallen down - could have hit her head off the ground or off something else then.

    Or maybe the cyclist hit her, before he knew what was going on, if she ran out from behind the car.

    As someone mentioned, if you're going to have any bit of compassion/humanity that would lead you to spare a child's life, you'd find it very difficult to beat them around the head! Doesn't seem to be any point in doing that - if he'd wanted to kill her, I'm sure he would have done so.


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    #166
    davet82
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,753 ✭✭✭davet82


    chatterpillar wrote: »
    Do they know for sure she was hit on the head though?

    Well whatever happened it fractured her skull so i'd imagine it would have to be a very hard impact to do that but i suppose a fall could be possible.

    the media are reporting the child was beaten so it suggests there were more injuries consistant with a beating than a fall


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    #167
    Uriel.
    Registered Users Posts: 8,061 ✭✭✭Uriel.


    chatterpillar wrote: »
    As someone mentioned, if you're going to have any bit of compassion/humanity that would lead you to spare a child's life, you'd find it very difficult to beat them around the head! Doesn't seem to be any point in doing that - if he'd wanted to kill her, I'm sure he would have done so.

    and I can't see a professional leaving a living witness either (though thankfully they did). It's all very strange.


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    #168
    deandean
    Registered Users Posts: 2,218 ✭✭✭deandean


    I reckon the girl was shot from a distance - you'd be aiming for a body shot at distance - she fell on the spot when shot, and whacked her head off the road, and was left for dead. i.e. she was making a run for it. For her life.


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    #169
    davet82
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,753 ✭✭✭davet82


    Last night Philip Murphy, a neighbour in the wealthy village of Claygate, Surrey, recalled how police asked if they could use his driveway to spy on the massacre victims' mock-Tudor house.

    The retired finance director said: 'I watched them from the window and they were watching Mr Al-Hilli and his brother.

    'I thought they were from Special Branch. They would sit there all day in their parked car just looking at the house.

    'When Mr Al-Hilli came out and drove off, they would follow him. It was all very odd. I never told the family they were being watched.'

    The surveillance happened as the invasion of Iraq by US and British forces began in March 2003.

    Any operation on the family would almost certainly have been backed up by bugging devices within their detached home.

    Last night it remained unclear why a surveillance team would be sent to watch a man who, on the outside at least, was a respected engineer.

    Would this be common practice for ex-pats from a country that the UK was at war with?
    The dead man's apparent family links to Saddam Hussein's ruling Ba'ath party in Iraq may be of significance.

    A close friend told how Mr Al-Hilli's father Kadhim, a former factory owner, and mother Fasiha fled Baghdad in the late 1970s. The friend told how Mr Al-Hilli's father had fallen out with the Ba'ath party and was forced to flee the country.

    he may not be political but his family certainly was


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    #170
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    davet82 wrote: »
    Would this be common practice for ex-pats from a country that the UK was at war with?
    he may not be political but his family certainly was
    I think you answered your own question there. :)
    There were links of some description between him and the politics of Iraq. If he had just left Iraq just because he wanted to emigrate, he probably wouldn't have been that big an issue. But if he left under political pressure, then he may still have political links back to Iraq.
    Perhaps not to Hussein, perhaps to another group, but it would still require them to pay attention for a while.
    There also can't be that many Iraqis in the UK, maybe a few hundred families? So they could realistically keep tabs on them all for a while anyway.

    Though I'm skeptical about the neighbour's story and wonder if he's just taking the opportunity to draw attention to himself. Surveillance agents rocking up and saying, "Hi, we'd like to spy on your neighbour, can we use your garden" doesn't seem like cutting-edge undercover work to me.


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    #171
    pickarooney
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,096 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    They probably ran out of bullets.


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    #172
    Bipolar Joe
    Registered Users Posts: 3,443 ✭✭✭Bipolar Joe


    pickarooney wrote: »
    They probably ran out of bullets.

    Trust the Creative Writing mod to come up with the least sensationalist and simplest reason.


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    #173
    humanji
    Registered Users Posts: 19,976 ✭✭✭✭humanji


    Bipolar Joe wrote: »
    Trust the Creative Writing mod to come up with the least sensationalist and simplest reason.
    Stop trolling or you'll be banned.


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    #174
    davet82
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,753 ✭✭✭davet82


    seamus wrote: »
    Though I'm skeptical about the neighbour's story and wonder if he's just taking the opportunity to draw attention to himself. Surveillance agents rocking up and saying, "Hi, we'd like to spy on your neighbour, can we use your garden" doesn't seem like cutting-edge undercover work to me.

    sounds suspect to say the least alright :pac:


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    #175
    ArmaniJeanss
    Registered Users Posts: 13,295 ✭✭✭✭ArmaniJeanss


    seamus wrote: »
    There also can't be that many Iraqis in the UK, maybe a few hundred families? So they could realistically keep tabs on them all for a while anyway.

    125,000 in London alone.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Iraqis


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    #176
    Lollipops23
    Registered Users Posts: 5,420 ✭✭✭Lollipops23


    I'd heard the 7 year old was hit in the shoulder. Seems very odd, why would they very clinically kill the adults at point blank range and then bash the child's head in? Makes no sense.


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    #177
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I don't think anything about it at all makes sense.


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    #178
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    seamus wrote: »
    Because it doesn't fit with the rest of the scene.
    Three clinical executions, one murder with five bullets on target, four of them at range. Very clean, very professional murders.
    And then a little girl who's been hit in the head with something and shot in the shoulder. A clumsy assault.

    It's just weird.


    With regard to the specific details of the shooting I would say that it amounted to what is termed Overkill: According to one news report each member of the family shot dead were shot with with two bullets to the head. The cyclist was then shot dead using 5 bullets. In criminal references Overkill tends to a feature in hate crimes or feuds. The shooting and beating of the child would also be an indication of this. Especially why the cyclist (no relation to the family) would be singled out with 5 shots is rather strange but then perhaps the shooter panicked - I dont think a professional would get that messy imo

    Another strange detail is that the young girl found outside the car by the other cyclist and yet he had to smash the drivers side window as the car was locked in order to check whether anyone was alive. Who locked the car with the child outside?


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    #179
    davet82
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,753 ✭✭✭davet82


    gozunda wrote: »
    Another strange detail is that the young girl found outside the car by the other cyclist and yet he had to smash the drivers side window as the car was locked in order to check whether anyone was alive. Who locked the car with the child outside?

    maybe the young girl locked herself in the car?

    the car was still running when the second cyclist arrived

    its very strange, if this isnt solved the case will be ledgendary


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    #180
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    gozunda wrote: »
    Who locked the car with the child outside?

    That's curious; though since he would have approached the driver's side to turn off the engine, must have found that door locked, coming across a scene like that you're unlikely to try all the other doors and climb in to do the job, aren't you?


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    #181
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    gozunda wrote: »
    Especially why the cyclist (no relation to the family) would be singled out with 5 shots is rather strange but then perhaps the shooter panicked
    He would have been at range, so the shooter would have to aim for the body. One, two or even three shots may not have been enough to stop the cyclist from fleeing. I don't find the five shots all that surprising if his aim is to kill the guy.
    Who locked the car with the child outside?
    A lot of modern vehicles have an auto-lock feature which prevent the doors from being opened from the outside. A passenger can open the door to get out, but the door will lock again when it's closed. Whether it will lock on a BMW when the engine is running but stationary, I don't know.


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