Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Abortion/ *Note* Thread Closing Shortly! ! !

Options
1…324325327329330

Comments

  • Options
    #9782
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users Posts: 7,772 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    with the founder of planned parenthood being a eugenicist and a racist I don't think it was such a strange question. Could have been cleared up simply and quickly with a straight answer.

    What makes you think any of us have anything to do with planned parenthood?


  • Options
    #9783
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    lazygal wrote: »
    In Ireland they're no different because medical teams will make every effort to save both. I think you may be somewhat uninformed about the law and practice of abortion here. Its to save lives only, and foetuses born alive receive all necessary medical treatment.

    Why would a medical team make any effort to save something they are going to kill.

    What I am asking you is what is the difference between a 24 week baby born premature and surviving outside the womb and a 24 week healthy foetus inside the womb as I don't see one other than their locations.


  • Options
    #9784
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    What is the difference between a soon to be aborted healthy 24 week foetus and a living 24 week premature baby?

    geography


  • Options
    #9785
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    What makes you think any of us have anything to do with planned parenthood?

    Particularly the Planned Parenthood that existed in 1916 when it was first founded.


  • Options
    #9786
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    I think you are being purposefully ignorant in this respect, as its been explained enough times, but to reiterate:
    Abortion is not actually performed on a foetus, its performed on a pregnancy. An abortion performed on an 8 1/2 moth pregnancy would result in a live baby being born (its probably the simplest and easiest way to end the pregnancy at that stage) and methods could include C section or medical inducement.
    Is what you are saying is that in an 8 month old foetus' abortion the baby would be delivered prior to killing?


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #9787
    aloyisious
    Registered Users Posts: 11,585 ✭✭✭✭aloyisious


    swampgas wrote: »
    The issue with this is: who are you (or I or anyone else) to judge what is and isn't a credible reason for something this personal?

    Either you respect a woman's autonomy or you don't - saying you can have an abortion only if I agree that your motivation is credible is not my idea of respecting someone's autonomy.

    I knew this was likely to coma back and bite me: that's why I used the term "credible". As I'm never likely to be in an actual position to make a real-time decision affecting a woman's decision to request an abortion, my thoughts are all I have to go on at this time.

    I have to have a base line on which to work from on making my decisions. I couldn't agree with a woman coming to me and insisting I assent to her having an abortion simply because the sex of the foetus didn't fit in with the colour scheme a room had, as I'd have to see that as being based on unreality.

    I'm NOT denying her her right to have an abortion. I simply couldn't concur with the reason she gave for having it.


  • Options
    #9788
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    Why would a medical team make any effort to save something they are going to kill.

    What I am asking you is what is the difference between a 24 week baby born premature and surviving outside the womb and a 24 week healthy foetus inside the womb as I don't see one other than their locations.

    In Ireland a medical team doesn't kill a baby, they try to deliver it alive and provide treatment. Is this something you have difficulty understanding? Whether pregnancy is aborted by nature or medicine the treatment plan for the foetus is the same. I think you're confused between abortion law and practices in Ireland and that in other countries.


  • Options
    #9789
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    DP


  • Options
    #9790
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    What you are doing is called extrapolating.

    Retract or prove I said that.
    3rd time now.
    You said:

    It's really a very simple premise - she who owns the womb gets to decide if she wants the womb occupied

    Now does this or does this not include the right to abortion for the flimsiest of reasons at 8 and a half months?


  • Options
    #9791
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users Posts: 7,772 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    Is what you are saying is that in an 8 month old foetus' abortion the baby would be delivered prior to killing?

    Don't insult everyone's intelligence by pretending that is a serious question.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #9792
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    lazygal wrote: »
    In Ireland a medical team doesn't kill a baby, they try to deliver it alive and provide treatment. Is this something you have difficulty understanding? Whether pregnancy is aborted by nature or medicine the treatment plan for the foetus is the same. I think you're confused between abortion law and practices in Ireland and that in other countries.

    As far as I know even in other countries where fetus may be killed before removal that is only done if it is the only safe way to remove the fetus from the womb.

    Again abortion is not the right to kill your unborn baby, any more than the right to protect your house from a burglar is the right to "shoot homeless people"


  • Options
    #9793
    swampgas
    Registered Users Posts: 3,543 ✭✭✭swampgas


    aloyisious wrote: »
    I knew this was likely to coma back and bite me: that's why I used the term "credible". As I'm never likely to be in an actual position to make a real-time decision affecting a woman's decision to request an abortion, my thoughts are all I have to go on at this time.

    I have to have a base line on which to work from on making my decisions. I couldn't agree with a woman coming to me and insisting I assent to her having an abortion simply because the sex of the foetus didn't fit in with the colour scheme a room had, as I'd have to see that as being based on unreality.

    I'm NOT denying her her right to have an abortion. I simply couldn't concur with the reason she gave for having it.

    Why would a woman need your assent? Do you simply mean that you would disagree with her wanting an abortion in certain cases, but wouldn't stop her having one if she insisted?

    I have no problem with that - I assume that would mean that you wouldn't push for any legal bar to her having an abortion if that was her decision?


  • Options
    #9794
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Zombrex wrote: »
    As far as I know even in other countries where fetus may be killed before removal that is only done if it is the only safe way to remove the fetus from the womb.

    Again abortion is not the right to kill your unborn baby, any more than the right to protect your house from a burglar is the right to "shoot homeless people"

    I read some of the termination for medical reasons campaign cases and depending on the circumstances some were induced and gave birth to a baby that lived for minutes, others had the heart stopped before delivery. Again utterly insane that such couples had to go abroad for such medical services,


  • Options
    #9795
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    lazygal wrote: »
    I read some of the termination for medical reasons campaign cases and depending on the circumstances some were induced and gave birth to a baby that lived for minutes, others had the heart stopped before delivery. Again utterly insane that such couples had to go abroad for such medical services,

    sorry yes I should have said viable fetus. I see zero point in forcing an unviable fetus out of the womb alive just so it can die on its own. Though that is an issue of euthanasia not abortion.


  • Options
    #9796
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    3rd time now.

    Would I support her pregnancy being terminated - yes.

    That does not mean the fetus will be terminated as has been explained to you several times now.

    Do I believe a woman who has carried a fetus for 8 months suddenly ups and decides feck this for a game of soldiers I've had enough and I want this thing inside me killed stone dead - No.
    You seem to and this leads me to think you really don't have a high regard for women.


    Do I believe there should be time limits set and only in exceptional circumstances should abortions take place outside these limits - Yes.

    At which point do I believe these limits would be set? When the fetus is capable of survival outside the womb.

    If a woman wants an abortion prior to this point then her reasons are none of my business. I don't see why she should be called to justify herself to you, me or anybody else.

    See - if you had just asked me my position instead of leaping to conclusions you wouldn't have been so spectacularly incorrect in your libelous statement.

    Care to retract now?


  • Options
    #9797
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Zombrex wrote: »
    sorry yes I should have said viable fetus. I see zero point in forcing an unviable fetus out of the womb alive just so it can die on its own. Though that is an issue of euthanasia not abortion.

    Some women wanted to give birth in those circumstances, again proving this isn't black and white.


  • Options
    #9798
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    lazygal wrote: »
    Some women wanted to give birth in those circumstances, again proving this isn't black and white.

    Sorry I'm not following?


  • Options
    #9799
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Zombrex wrote: »
    Sorry I'm not following?

    I meant they opted not to have a surgical delivery,they opted for induction and "normal" delivery, not the more graphic procedures some would have us believe take place in later term abortions.


  • Options
    #9800
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    Don't insult everyone's intelligence by pretending that is a serious question.
    It was. Obviously I am missing something here. What is the difference between a pregnancy being aborted and a foetus being aborted? Surely it is more than semantics?


  • Options
    #9801
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    That the abortion debate is a lot more complex than simply being a choice between being pro choice and pro life. Extremists at both ends can't avoid the fact that their absolutism requires them to support some fairly awful things.


    I would have thought it clear from most of us that we accept the fact that 'bad things happen' when certain courses of action are taken, and we prefer to favour the women....

    Are you going to fire loaded scenarios at every poster in the thread?


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #9802
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Would I support her pregnancy being terminated - yes.

    That does not mean the fetus will be terminated as has been explained to you several times now.

    Do I believe a woman who has carried a fetus for 8 months suddenly ups and decides feck this for a game of soldiers I've had enough and I want this thing inside me killed stone dead - No.
    You seem to and this leads me to think you really don't have a high regard for women.


    Do I believe there should be time limits set and only in exceptional circumstances should abortions take place outside these limits - Yes.

    At which point do I believe these limits would be set? When the fetus is capable of survival outside the womb.

    If a woman wants an abortion prior to this point then her reasons are none of my business. I don't see why she should be called to justify herself to you, me or anybody else.

    See - if you had just asked me my position instead of leaping to conclusions you wouldn't have been so spectacularly incorrect in your libelous statement.

    Care to retract now?

    You'll find I did ask you to clarify yourself, through a question which you couldn't have easily answered instead of resorting to games. Your answer has left me confused.

    You said previously that it was a case of my womb my rules, and the mother should be able to abort however and and whenever she wants. Your above comments now contradict this.


  • Options
    #9803
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    lazygal wrote: »
    I meant they opted not to have a surgical delivery,they opted for induction and "normal" delivery, not the more graphic procedures some would have us believe take place in later term abortions.

    Of course. My point is that I don't even think you can opt for the "please chop up my fetus" option unless that is the only way to safely remove the fetus. You are not asked do you want the option that results in a living baby or a dead baby. You are just presented with the safe option to remove the fetus from your womb. How that effects the fetus is not your choice.


  • Options
    #9804
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    ......

    You said previously that it was a case of my womb my rules, and the mother should be able to abort however and and whenever she wants. Your above comments now contradict this.

    ...but had she left it at that, you'd be firing stupid scenario after stupid scenario at her.....


  • Options
    #9805
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users Posts: 7,772 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    It was. Obviously I am missing something here. What is the difference between a pregnancy being aborted and a foetus being aborted? Surely it is more than semantics?

    The post which you responded to with that question, is the answer to that question. As are about half of the responses to you in the last page alone. Not to mention the previous pages which also contain an explanation amounting to "abortion happens on pregnancy not foetus" at a rate of at least one per page. You are insulting everyone's intelligence, not least your own, by pretending not to get this.


  • Options
    #9806
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    You'll find I did ask you to clarify yourself, through a question which you couldn't have easily answered instead of resorting to games. Your answer has left me confused.

    You said previously that it was a case of my womb my rules, and the mother should be able to abort however and and whenever she wants. Your above comments now contradict this.

    No. It doesn't.

    While a fetus is utterly dependent on it's habitation of a woman's womb in order to survive the decision as to whether it is welcome in that womb is utterly up to the owner of the womb.

    Once it is capable of survival outside the womb then we are in a different territory where it is possible to terminate the pregnancy without that meaning terminating the fetus as well.

    I don't see the problem.

    Not retracting I see - colour me completely unsurprised.


  • Options
    #9807
    smokingman
    Registered Users Posts: 3,747 ✭✭✭smokingman


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    Is what you are saying is that in an 8 month old foetus' abortion the baby would be delivered prior to killing?

    Only after the surgeons are finished the AK-47 part, then it's grand....

    Seriously lad, if you're in this country, please don't rant on about something that's not applicable in this country.


  • Options
    #9808
    Absolam
    Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    While a fetus is utterly dependent on it's habitation of a woman's womb in order to survive the decision as to whether it is welcome in that womb is utterly up to the owner of the womb.
    Why?

    I get the impression you've decided that up until the point that a foetus isn't necessarily dependent on being nurtured in another persons' body it shouldn't be counted as a person/individual/baby/whatever, and thereafter can, but I'm wondering is that what you mean?


  • Options
    #9809
    aloyisious
    Registered Users Posts: 11,585 ✭✭✭✭aloyisious


    swampgas wrote: »
    Why would a woman need your assent? Do you simply mean that you would disagree with her wanting an abortion in certain cases, but wouldn't stop her having one if she insisted?

    I have no problem with that - I assume that would mean that you wouldn't push for any legal bar to her having an abortion if that was her decision?

    Yes to Para 1 (I would disagree but take no further action) and Yes to para 2 (I would NOT take steps of a legal or protest nature against her decision, either by direct action or by proxy) The decision is her's to make.

    Edit.add-on: Roll on 10PM tonight. I just hope there will be no grand-standing in the Chamber at the vote. I assume that filibustering will be of no use at this stage to the Pro-life TD's to derail the bill, that it's green lights all the way.


  • Options
    #9810
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    aloyisious wrote: »
    Yes to Para 1 (I would disagree but take no further action) and Yes to para 2 (I would NOT take steps of a legal or protest nature against her decision, either by direct action or by proxy) The decision is her's to make.

    Edit.add-on: Roll on 10PM tonight. I just hope there will be no grand-standing in the Chamber at the vote. I assume that filibustering will be of no use at this stage to the Pro-life TD's to derail the bill, that it's green lights all the way.

    Thankfully this ****e doesn't have any standing in Irish politics and when they say 10 pm deadline then that's it, No standing talking for 12 hours, they will be shut down and vote will go ahead.

    Just think very soon women who are in remission from cancer will be able to have an abortion instead of having to travel to the UK or even worse being restricted from traveling for an abortion.

    No more Savita Halappanavar cases where a woman is dying and when she asks for a termination she is told "This is a catholic country"

    Welcome to the 21st century Ireland it's a bright new future:)


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #9811
    The Black Oil
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 18,365 CMod ✭✭✭✭The Black Oil


    Passed Leinster House on the bus at around 7:35 this morning. Around 30-40* pro life protestors were there.

    *In pro-life speak that's about 400.

    Moderator: Television, Psychology and Dublin County North.

    CMod: Entertainment



This discussion has been closed.
Advertisement