Abortion/ *Note* Thread Closing Shortly! ! !

UDP

Mod Note: Thread is continued on here.

So the abortion debate about to kick off again.

From what I know it doesn't have to go to a referendum as the supreme court already ruled that it is legal under certain circumstances e.g. when the life of the mother is at risk.

No doctor can perform an abortion here since it would be classified as mal practice and they would be struck off by the Irish Medical Council.

The EU has said (because of a human rights case they heard) that we have to have an accessible procedure that women can avail of to determine if they can have a legal abortion.

This means that there needs to be clear guidelines as to what grounds a legal abortion will be granted.

Cardinal Brady says they are going to have a massive campaign. Pat Rabbit basically says this is not the 1950's where the church tells the government what to do.

Do you think the church will have much sway on people's opinions in this debate?

I don't think they will have much impact on those under 40 and I would imagine the damage they have caused to themselves over the past few years re abuse will hurt their persuading powers greatly.

Sarky

The choice needs to be available. It's really that simple.

Penn

I think it's one of those things which could go either way. There'll be a lot of scaremongering from the "No" side, and they'll be a lot more vocal than the "Yes" side. But at the same time, if the "Yes" side are clear and concise on the circumstances under which abortion would be allowable (rape, risk of mother's life, severe deformities in foetus) then I think most people under 50 would see it as being a fair move.

krudler

But abortion happens anyway, we just make women take a trip to the UK to do it, and demonise their decisions instead of offering care and support closer to home. Its hilarious how black and white pro-lifers make what can be a very grey area issue. "abortion is MURDER, simple as!" is something you see every other day on Youth Defences facebook page, I guarantee you not one of those people would call a woman who had an abortion a murderer to her face, not one.

seamus

Sarky wrote: »

The choice needs to be available. It's really that simple.

To paraphrase a post in AH which summed up my feelings on it nicely:

I'm anti-abortion at heart, pro-choice on principle.

While I feel that there's always a better option than ending an otherwise uncomplicated pregnancy, I recognise that it's not mine or the state's right to force a woman to bring it to completion.

I also think it's time to take the debate up a notch and bring in the complications. The pro-lifers often try to represent the abortion issue as that of children being murdered, but conveniently forget about the huge numbers of unviable or otherwise perfectly valid reasons for ending a pregnancy early when the foetus is already dead or functionally braindead.

For some reason, I've never seen these cases discussed in the Irish media, but this time they seem to be bringing them to the fore.

Sulla Felix

European army of aborted babies here we come!

Personally I think the lifers will win it. The demographics favour them. The over forties vote a lot mor than the unders.

Turtwig

Support Jobs Creation : Vote Yes for Abortion Multiplexes.

God I hate referendums in this country.

BraveInca

Dunno what the Catholics folks are so worried about. Surely God will look after all the murdered babies. "Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius." as they said in the Cathar wars and since.

Nodin

Sulla Felix wrote: »

European army of aborted babies here we come!

Personally I think the lifers will win it. The demographics favour them. The over forties vote a lot mor than the unders.

It's already been voted on.

markfla

Dunno why the church are getting involved,God is the biggest abortionist after all

Zombrex

It would be nice if the country could have an abortion debate that doesn't involve invoking a supernatural deity in order to justify a position. As soon as someone says "...because God says so" the debate ends to a large degree.

It would be also nice if we could have an abortion debate that doesn't involve some mis-guided feminists demanding that people stay out of their business, ignoring that the state has always interfered with someones private business if there is justification to (you can't privately rape your children).

To sum up, it would be nice if we could have an abortion debate where both sides aren't coming up with moronic arguments :P

swampgas

Unlike a referendum, where the people decide in a secret ballot, passing legislation in the Dáil requires TDs to vote in public. Few TDs want to upset any of their electorate, such is the nature of Irish politics. However a vote on abortion is going to force them to take a position, and alienate at least some of their supporters. No wonder they have put it off for so long - simply declaring oneself a Catholic and being seen going to mass every Sunday isn't going to cut it with the Catholic die-hards if they vote to allow (even very limited) abortion, and voting against abortion in all cases won't please the big chunk of voters that want to see the legislation put in place.

Either way, it will force TDs to get off the fence, which they absolutely do not want to do. I wouldn't be surprised to see another referendum being proposed as a way of sparing TDs the job of tackling some very needed but very divisive legislation.

Stark

Dunno what the religious objection is. According to the Bible, an infant under one month old isn't considered a person. Though I guess it helps if you only use the Bible to pick and choose what pieces suit your agenda. Killing newborn babies? That's obviously too ridiculous to be taken literally. Obscure reference to homosexuality? Word of God is absolute.

Sarky

Whereabouts is the bit about infants under 1 month? That'll be a fun quote in the days to come.

Morgase

Penn wrote: »

But at the same time, if the "Yes" side are clear and concise on the circumstances under which abortion would be allowable (rape, risk of mother's life, severe deformities in foetus) then I think most people under 50 would see it as being a fair move.

I really really really hope that it's not going to be limited to these circumstances. I would like to be able to access a safe abortion in my own country rather than having to take out a loan to travel to the UK if my contraception fails.

Edit: to answer the OP, I agree that I suspect what the RCC preaches directly will have much of an effect on the younger people. It would be the likes of Youth Defence and their nasty campaigns that might sway some people.

seamus

Sarky wrote: »

Whereabouts is the bit about infants under 1 month? That'll be a fun quote in the days to come.

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/says_about/abortion.html

Good old Leviticus again. Maybe anyone arguing authority from the bible should be forced to read Leviticus and sign an agreement that it is the "word of God" before they can join in the discussion.

UDP

They are not counted:
Number the children of Levi after the house of their fathers, by their families: every male from a month old and upward shalt thou number them. And Moses numbered them according to the word of the LORD. -- Numbers 3:15-16

From my reading the following means that a woman can have an abortion if her husband and judges allow it as long as they don't cause any other trouble:
If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life. -- Exodus 21:22-23

iguana

Nodin wrote: »

It's already been voted on.

I would be surprised if this or any government we have in the near future will move to legislate on this. There is a reason that it hasn't been done in the 20 years since we* voted on this. Like in 2002, the odds are we'll be asked to vote on the issue again. The only difference is that this time around I doubt the EU will allow them to ignore the issue if the public doesn't vote the need for legislation away.

*By we I'm not actually including myself as I was not old enough to vote in 1992. Like, I suspect, most posters here.

christmas2012

abortion should be for ALL..I believe that to be totally wrong wrong wrong,as it sends out the wrong message to people having sex,saying there are no consequences you dont have to grow up and face the music..

abortion should only be for suicidal/rape victims,and those who dont want to rear handicapped or those incompatible with life..

Zombrex

christmas2012 wrote: »

abortion should be for ALL..I believe that to be totally wrong wrong wrong,as it sends out the wrong message to people having sex,saying there are no consequences you dont have to grow up and face the music..

You don't want abortion because you think there should be consequences to sex? Why does there have to be consequences to sex?

christmas2012

christmas2012 wrote: »

abortion should be for ALL..I believe that to be totally wrong wrong wrong,as it sends out the wrong message to people having sex,saying there are no consequences you dont have to grow up and face the music..

abortion should only be for suicidal/rape victims,and those who dont want to rear handicapped or those incompatible with life..

Abortion is a consequence

by making a rape exception you're saying you don't care about the life of a fetus, only about punishment

MagicMarker

christmas2012 wrote: »

abortion should be for ALL..I believe that to be totally wrong wrong wrong,as it sends out the wrong message to people having sex,saying there are no consequences you dont have to grow up and face the music..

abortion should only be for suicidal/rape victims,and those who dont want to rear handicapped or those incompatible with life..

Insightful as always....

Jernal wrote: »

Support Jobs Creation : Vote Yes for Abortion Multiplexes.

God I hate referendums in this country.

"Austerity isn't working, say NO to abortion"

christmas2012

Abortion is a consequence

no abortion is no consequence they can scratch pregnancy out of their lives..

by making a rape exception you're saying you don't care about the life of a fetus, only about punishment

youre reading into whats not there i didnt explicity say that did i?

christmas2012

christmas2012 wrote: »

no abortion is no consequence they can scratch pregnancy out of their lives..

it is a consequence by the very definition of the word consequence; it's just one you don't like

youre reading into whats not there i didnt explicity say that did i?

since you're so obsessed with women being punished for having sex, you don't need to

MagicMarker

christmas2012 wrote: »

no abortion is no consequence they can scratch pregnancy out of their lives..

And?

christmas2012 wrote: »

youre reading into whats not there i didnt explicity say that did i?

Why are you for abortion in cases of rape but against abortion in cases or carelessness or even just bad luck?

Do you think abortion is murder?

Triangle

christmas2012 wrote: »

no abortion is no consequence they can scratch pregnancy out of their lives..

I can't understand how the pro lifers can on one end say that the consequences of an abortion are devastating for both parties and also say there are no consequence.

No offence, but debating this issue with arguments that self defeat is insane!

christmas2012,

"Abortion diminishes the consequences of reckless sex," is that your sole objection to abortion? As an argument against abortion it's one of the worst that I've heard. The argument has no basis because you haven't told us why sex should have consequences. Until you do that your argument is pointless.

Rev Hellfire

christmas2012 wrote: »

abortion should only be for suicidal/rape victims,and those who dont want to rear handicapped or those incompatible with life..

I don't get this, if its right then its right and should be available to all non-conditionally.

Personally I'd like to see males granted the right to 'abort' their legal responsibilities as well should it become legal. Just as women can be not ready for parenthood so can males.

hattoncracker

christmas2012 wrote: »

no abortion is no consequence they can scratch pregnancy out of their lives..

If they can scratch pregnancy out of their lives so easily, why are you of the opinion that Marie Stopes clinics should come with a health warning, that women are not informed of the painful medical procedure, and that it does untold long-term psychological damage to a woman?

If that's the case, then you can't really "scratch" pregnancy out of your life.

You're so funny.

christmas2012

Abortion diminishes the consequences of reckless sex, is that your sole objection to abortion?

that is my sole objection to abortion yes ,and its not the worst argument to put forward,there should be consequences for each action it teaches people nothing about lessons to be learned,if youre prepared to have sex you should be prepared to have a child full stop,and if youre not you should think twice about contraception

The argument has no basis because you haven't told us why sex should have consequences.

Sex does have consequences its called pregnancy,and if yorue mature enough to have sex you should be mature enough to face the music..

since you're so obsessed with women being punished for having sex, you don't need to

as a fellow member of the fair sex im not obsessed with women being punished where have i said that,youre reading into things that simply arent there!

hattoncracker

christmas2012 wrote: »

Abortion diminishes the consequences of reckless sex," is that your sole objection to abortion?

that is my sole objection to abortion yes ,and its not the worst argument to put forward,there should be consequences for each action it teaches people nothing about lessons to be learned,if youre prepared to have sex you should be prepared to have a child full stop,and if youre not you should think twice about contraception



Sex does have consequences its called pregnancy,and if yorue mature enough to have sex you should be mature enough to face the music..

You have such an unhealthy attitude to parenting. It's a "consequence" and it's "facing the music". If you instill these values in young women and they do perchance get pregnant by accident, they'll be so resentful of their kids.

Pregnancy isn't necessarily a consequence of sex. You're arguing that abortion shouldn't be allowed because it removes pregnancy as a consequence of sex. Using that same logic, should contraception not be banned? If your sole objection to abortion is that it leads to diminished consequences of sex, then should you not also object to contraception? As far as I can tell, insofar as abortion removes consequences, contraception has much the same effect. No?

Zombrex

christmas2012 wrote: »

Sex does have consequences its called pregnancy

You were asked why it should have consequence of having a child. If I can have sex with a condom and not get my gf pregnant why is that bad?

You might as well argue we shouldn't provide seat belts because crashing your car should have the consequence of killing you, how else are you going to learn :rolleyes:

You want people to needlessly suffer simply so they learn about suffering.

hattoncracker

christmas2012 wrote: »

as a fellow member of the fair sex im not obsessed with women being punished where have i said that,youre reading into things that simply arent there!

You kind of are, though. Are you as hardline with the guys who get these girls pregnant. Do you think child support should come out of their benefits/wages, and they should be banned from moving out of the country til the kid turns 18?

iguana

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Personally I'd like to see males granted the right to 'abort' their legal responsibilities as well should it become legal. Just as women can be not ready for parenthood so can males.

Off topic but it might be best for your argument if you didn't use the word 'abort' when describing that issue as it's not at all an accurate comparison. A better argument would be to want men to have the same rights re adoption that women have. A woman can put her child up for adoption and if he wants to the father can adopt the child. This ensures that she has no more parental responsibility if she feels that she isn't ready for parenthood but equally she has no rights either. Men should have the same right if they don't want to be a parent. A legal procedure that allows men to give up all present and future parental rights and responsibilities to the mother if that's what he really wants.

krudler

christmas2012 wrote: »

abortion should be for ALL..I believe that to be totally wrong wrong wrong,as it sends out the wrong message to people having sex,saying there are no consequences you dont have to grow up and face the music..

abortion should only be for suicidal/rape victims,and those who dont want to rear handicapped or those incompatible with life..

Contraception (which btw the church and youth defence also oppose) isnt 100%, so if someone takes precautions and it fails for whatever reason, and there are plenty of reasons it can't work, then oh well, tough for you? maybe everyone should start praying their unborn kids are going to be disabled, then its ok to abort them in your eyes?

MagicMarker

krudler wrote: »

Contraception (which btw the church and youth defence also oppose) isnt 100%, so if someone takes precautions and it fails for whatever reason, and there are plenty of reasons it can't work, then oh well, tough for you? maybe everyone should start praying their unborn kids are going to be disabled, then its ok to abort them in your eyes?

It seems Christmas2012 is okay with abortion if it's "half retard/ugly/schizo or downs or incompatible with life"

Yup, abortions for ALL the ugly babies.

Zombrex

Ah, looks like we are being trolled then.

I was wondering, given how moronic the argument is.

Sulla Felix

Nodin wrote: »

It's already been voted on.

It has. I predict another however. Methinks the Dail will wimp out and rather than legislate, we'll hear in the coming months that it really is an issue that the people should decide, and that the last ref was so long ago, a whole new generation etc etc.

marienbad

Sulla Felix wrote: »

It has. I predict another however. Methinks the Dail will wimp out and rather than legislate, we'll hear in the coming months that it really is an issue that the people should decide, and that the last ref was so long ago, a whole new generation etc etc.

Can't see another referendum on this . There will be allparty agreement on some wording and abstensions left right and centre but it will pass into law.

It is in everyones interest to get shut of it and now is a better time that most when there are much greater issues taking the headlines.

Penn

Source: http://www.mediacontact.ie/mediahq/ionainstitute/37301/minister-rabbittes-comments-on-church-and-state-deeply-undemocratic.html

Iona Institute wrote:

Minister Rabbitte’s comments on Church and State 'deeply undemocratic'

August 26, 2012 - Reacting to Cardinal Brady’s comment today that the Church might lobby politicians on the issue of abortion, Minister Pat Rabbitte said it would be a “retrograde” step if the Church started “dictating” to politicians again.

However, Minister Rabbitte’s remark is really an attempt to rob the Church of the democratic right to lobby.

Responding to the remarks, Dr John Murray of The Iona Institute said: “It is Minister Rabbitte’s comment that is actually retrograde. First of all, lobbying is not the same as dictating.

“Secondly, why should business organisations, or farming organisations, or trades unions be allowed to lobby politicians but the Churches cannot do this?”

He continued: “Seeking to deny the Churches, and their members, the same right as belongs to every other group in society is deeply undemocratic”.

Dr Murray noted: “The Catholic Church in Ireland is actually quite unusual in not having professional lobbyists working in parliament full-time. The Scottish hierarchy has a full-time lobbyist, for example. The bishops of Europe jointly have a full-time political office in Brussels”.

He concluded: “The Catholic Church in Ireland, far from having the right to lobby denied it, should in fact lobby far more often and more professionally than it does.”

Once again, another OTT claim by the Iona Institute. Rabbitte wasn't saying that the Church shouldn't lobby, or don't have the right to lobby; he was saying that years ago if the Church told politicians to do something, they generally did, and that a return to that would be a backwards step in society.

Typical case of "We're being persecuted! Our opinions are being oppressed!" No, they aren't. They're just going to be given the same weight as the opinions of everyone else with no special treatment.

As for the last line about how they should lobby more often and more professionally, that's worrying, but I can definitely see it happening if they don't get their way with the abortion stuff. They'll be a lot more aggressive in trying to cut out anything they don't like.

Then again, I disagree with lobbying in general but that's a whole different matter.

Dave!

christmas2012 wrote: »

no abortion is no consequence they can scratch pregnancy out of their lives..

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it you who was posting before about how traumatic abortion is, and how it can lead to all manner of psychological damage for the woman?

With this in mind, how can you say that abortion is "no consequence", and use a term like "scratch" in reference to a serious medical procedure which is pretty much never taken lightly?

christmas2012

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it you who was posting before about how traumatic abortion is, and how it can lead to all manner of psychological damage for the woman?

With this in mind, how can you say that abortion is "no consequence", and use a term like "scratch" in reference to a serious medical procedure which is pretty much never taken lightly?

Thats the thing women seem to think they can scratch the problem out of their lives,but wait till they get to the painful procedure and aftermath and its only then they realise they have been cheated.

maybe everyone should start praying their unborn kids are going to be disabled, then its ok to abort them in your eyes?

and..exactly where did i say pray they are all disabled or incompatible with life,btw im not a religious person so stop making assumptions and bad judgments on me..

You might as well argue we shouldn't provide seat belts because crashing your car should have the consequence of killing you, how else are you going to learn

bad analogoy if it was a case of the seat belt before the car crash that would be contraception to my mind and why would you equate pregnancy giving life with a car crash thats half the problem pregnancy is seen as something negative,this is why abortion will become so popular..

UDP

christmas2012 wrote: »

Thats the thing women seem to think they can scratch the problem out of their lives,but wait till they get to the painful procedure and aftermath and its only then they realise they have been cheated.

Everything is explained to those seeking an abortion beforehand.

christmas2012

not everything,and no they dont talk you through it - they ask you for a few hundred sterling before you walk into the clinic to wait for an hour or two the clinics are packed as ever,and not everyone in that room has made the right decision..there are a few exceptions rape victims,incest victims,those who bear handicaps,and those incompatible with life etc,but abortion for everyone is not the right message to send out,it sends out a message you can do what you want and not face consequences,sooner or later it will catch up with them by way of std or what not..
it encourages the wrong attitude towards sex.

Sarky

And what is the correct attitude towards sex?

Dave!

What are you basing this on? As I understand it, as with any significant medical intervention, women are fully briefed on the abortion procedure, and given all of the relevant information about potential health problems and emotional/psychological distress that can result. I imagine any reputable clinic that carries out the procedure would also offer information on therapists.

Nobody skips into an abortion clinic with a smile on their face, only to later discover that it's actually a horrible and invasive procedure. Certainly the overwhelming majority do not.

UDP

Sarky wrote: »

And what is the correct attitude towards sex?

I would also love to hear the answer to this.

robindch

Sarky wrote: »

And what is the correct attitude towards sex?

45 degrees is a good one to start with.

aidan24326

UDP wrote: »

I don't think they will have much impact on those under 40 and I would imagine the damage they have caused to themselves over the past few years re abuse will hurt their persuading powers greatly.

You'd think it ought to. But their persuading powers haven't gone away just yet. On the wane for sure though, thankfuly.

It's actually galling that an organisation that has done so much wrong in this country (and others) still feels they can tell us what to do.

Yes they do have a democratic right to lobby, as per the Iona Institute's defence of their position. However, lobbying has never really been what they're about has it? Dictating is what they like to do.

On the issue of abortion their views are so clouded by religious dogma as to make their position on the subject irrelevant imo. It's a matter for medical science and law to deal with. Theology doesn't really have anything useful to add (does it ever?)

christmas2012

Nobody skips into an abortion clinic with a smile on their face, only to later discover that it's actually a horrible and invasive procedure.

Some do breeze into abortion clinics thinking this is a problem i can scratch out of my life,i have an OPTION etc,but it does turn out to be a horribly invasive procedure,and they dont give you general anaesthetic they give you concious sedation..so it is very traumatic for a young girl or woman to go through of any age..

And what is the correct attitude towards sex?

practising safe sex,and not getting abortion on demand if you get pregnant face the music,have an attitude of genuine maturity when it comes to sex,you and your partner,face the music if needs be..