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The future at scrumhalf

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    #152
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    O'Leary showed last season that he is capable of playing with tempo when he was replacing Murray and outplaying him at times. He was also very good this season according to London Irish fans.

    I'm not going to write the guy off because he was terribly used by the national coach.


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    #153
    who_me
    Registered Users Posts: 3,669 ✭✭✭who_me


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    O'Leary showed last season that he is capable of playing with tempo when he was replacing Murray and outplaying him at times. He was also very good this season according to London Irish fans.

    I'm not going to write the guy off because he was terribly used by the national coach.

    O'Leary's passing technique was terrible for a scrum half though. It improved a bit over time, but at the start it was more of a vertical scoop than a horizontal swing resulting in huge looping passes which only got worse the more he tried to force it.

    It's actually impressive how far he got in spite of that pass. He's a very strong first-up tackler, and has great pace off the back of the scrum/ruck. At his peak (one season really) he was even taking on a playmaker role, often skipping 10 on attacking ball - which Ireland don't do often - catching the drift defence out.


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    #154
    stephen_n
    Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    Fishooks13 wrote: »
    I'd say that this hasn't been a problem at all this season. Struggling to think of a game bar the Fiji one where he was too slow

    His speed of thinking around the base of the ruck was awful against South Africa, the difference in the speed which Reddan moved the ball when he was introduced was like trying to make a comparison between rugby and soccer, there simply was no comparison, if anything when he does move the ball quickly it's more frustrating as it makes you wonder why he doesn't all the time. He is a good player but if we want quick ball he will have to be more consistent in his speed around the base of the ruck or he will be overtaken by Marmion


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    #155
    rchendz92
    Registered Users Posts: 185 ✭✭rchendz92


    That game TOL had against Wales a few years back, '10 maybe, showed how much of an exceptional player he could have been. But he never really looked like a natural scrum half, and as other poster have said he was never dropped no matter how bad the form, culminating in the world cup warm up vs. France - far and away the worst performance I've seen an international 9 make in recent years (Bergamasco aside!). But his ship has sailed for Ireland - Murray is the future, or at least the stop gap.


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    #156
    mayolad93
    Registered Users Posts: 15 ✭mayolad93


    rchendz92 wrote: »
    That game TOL had against Wales a few years back, '10 maybe, showed how much of an exceptional player he could have been. But he never really looked like a natural scrum half, and as other poster have said he was never dropped no matter how bad the form, culminating in the world cup warm up vs. France - far and away the worst performance I've seen an international 9 make in recent years (Bergamasco aside!). But his ship has sailed for Ireland - Murray is the future, or at least the stop gap.
    I remember that game myself, Ireland took Wales apart. That break and pass that TOL made to send Keith Earls in for the try in the corner was something else. Around 2009/2010 O Leary was very good it has to be said


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    #157
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    O'Leary showed last season that he is capable of playing with tempo when he was replacing Murray and outplaying him at times. He was also very good this season according to London Irish fans.

    I'm not going to write the guy off because he was terribly used by the national coach.

    I think the problem was that he was never fully fit after breaking his ankle just after he got his call-up for the Lions.

    The op for his lower back injury was described by London Irish as a "degenerative pre-existing injury" that had deteriorated.


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    #158
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    mayolad93 wrote: »
    I remember that game myself, Ireland took Wales apart. That break and pass that TOL made to send Keith Earls in for the try in the corner was something else. Around 2009/2010 O Leary was very good it has to be said

    He was absolutely brutal against France in the 2010 6 Nations. One of his poorer performances in the green jersey


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    #159
    totallegend
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,234 ✭✭✭totallegend


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    O'Leary showed last season that he is capable of playing with tempo when he was replacing Murray and outplaying him at times. He was also very good this season according to London Irish fans.

    I'm not going to write the guy off because he was terribly used by the national coach.

    That is a very charitable interpretation of the situation. There would be a sizeable population of fans who would say that he was massively indulged by the national coach, that he was given chance after chance in the national side, that any other coach would have jettisoned him long before Kidney finally cut him loose.

    I'm no defender of Kidney, but it's not his fault that O'Leary can't pass.
    [or maybe it is, since Kidney coached him at Munster for a long time]


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    #160
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    totallegend wrote: »
    That is a very charitable interpretation of the situation. There would be a sizeable population of fans who would say that he was massively indulged by the national coach, that he was given chance after chance in the national side, that any other coach would have jettisoned him long before Kidney finally cut him loose.

    I'm no defender of Kidney, but it's not his fault that O'Leary can't pass.
    [or maybe it is, since Kidney coached him at Munster for a long time]

    Well I would suggest he would have been far better served by Kidney if he was allowed to step out of the national squad and improve his basics. Continually starting him in poor form did him absolutely no favours, hence he was used terribly.


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    #161
    totallegend
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,234 ✭✭✭totallegend


    irishbucsfan wrote: »

    Well I would suggest he would have been far better served by Kidney if he was allowed to step out of the national squad and improve his basics. Continually starting him in poor form did him absolutely no favours, hence he was used terribly.

    Oh right, thought you meant the tactics Kidney was employing..Yeah, Kidney did him plenty of favours but also no favours.


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    #162
    RobbieRuns
    Registered Users Posts: 1,274 ✭✭✭RobbieRuns


    Think that you are being harsh on TOL there Mr Legend. He is not a bad passer of the ball and was flying for London Irish earlier, they have suffered dramatically since he went for his operation. He IMO suffered the time that he got injured before the Lions tour, he did not get on there by sentiment from Deccie, but on form. He never seemed to be held in the same light afterwards when he came back to Ireland team, personally I always thought that he was forcing it and trying too hard. He is a good player, if he gets himself fully fit (like POC) then he could be great again. The worry is, will they ever get back to that level of fitness and shaprness again? same applies to BOD in a certain way, but he has proven that he has the ability to regain form and fitness.

    Me, I hope that they all do and I would love to see them all back in Green someday at the top of their games.


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    #163
    totallegend
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,234 ✭✭✭totallegend


    RobbieRuns wrote: »
    Think that you are being harsh on TOL there Mr Legend. He is not a bad passer of the ball and was flying for London Irish earlier, they have suffered dramatically since he went for his operation. He IMO suffered the time that he got injured before the Lions tour, he did not get on there by sentiment from Deccie, but on form. He never seemed to be held in the same light afterwards when he came back to Ireland team, personally I always thought that he was forcing it and trying too hard. He is a good player, if he gets himself fully fit (like POC) then he could be great again. The worry is, will they ever get back to that level of fitness and shaprness again? same applies to BOD in a certain way, but he has proven that he has the ability to regain form and fitness.

    'Mr Legend' is my father, maaaan.

    But I disagree with you; O'Leary always struck me as a poor passer, like someone who learnt late in life to pass.

    The best SHs are 'wristy' passers; watch Reddan when he passes, his shoulders barely move and all the spin and pace on the ball come from his lower arms, Stringer even more so and Murray is in a similar vein. It means you can move the ball very quickly and don't telegraph the pass as much.

    Watching O'Leary (and I do admit I've seen nothing of him at London Irish), he always had to put his hips and shoulders into the pass and while the ball might reach its target, it would get there later.

    O'Leary, assuming his international career is over, will have a strange legacy. He's lauded for being part of the Grand Slam but that campaign suited him down to the ground because Ireland played an awful brand of rugby that didn't call for zippy backline moves; it was mainly crash-ball, route-one rugby which TOL was made for. Then again, his detractors (me included) probably focus too much on very poor performances which came when he may not have been fully fit.

    I'll never get over that horror-show against France in August 2011 though.


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    #164
    cameramonkey
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,220 ✭✭✭cameramonkey


    Watched Michael Heaney the other night for Ulster, he came on for the last 15 mins I think. Looked really good with a super fast pass. He may find it difficult to get into the Ulster first team with the two lads ahead of him. Leinster should maybe look north again for a scrumhalf.

    Have many seen him play this year? How good do you think he is?


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    #165
    Fireball07
    Registered Users Posts: 13,264 ✭✭✭✭Fireball07


    cameramonkey wrote: »
    Watched Michael Heaney the other night for Ulster, he came on for the last 15 mins I think. Looked really good with a super fast pass. He may find it difficult to get into the Ulster first team with the two lads ahead of him. Leinster should maybe look north again for a scrumhalf.

    Have many seen him play this year? How good do you think he is?

    Leinster have 4 scrum-halves! 2 of which are young and promising, Luke McGrath has been extraordinarily hyped. So unless you're going to move Cooney/McGrath on, why would Heaney go to Leinster?

    It would make more sense for him to come to Munster, where Murray is the only decent option really.

    Or he could stay in Ulster...Pienaar won't be around forever, he's still young, could get a starting spot.


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    #166
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    John Cooney was better than Heaney at u20 level. Heaney developed thanks to his year abroad, but I don't really think he's that far ahead of Cooney. There'd be no reason at all for Heaney to go to Leinster.


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    #167
    Tox56
    Registered Users Posts: 11,636 ✭✭✭✭Tox56


    Fireball07 wrote: »
    Leinster have 4 scrum-halves! 2 of which are young and promising, Luke McGrath has been extraordinarily hyped. So unless you're going to move Cooney/McGrath on, why would Heaney go to Leinster?

    It would make more sense for him to come to Munster, where Murray is the only decent option really.

    Or he could stay in Ulster...Pienaar won't be around forever, he's still young, could get a starting spot.

    Yep, it would make much more sense to move to Munster. He will get plenty of gametime in the Pro12, and if he is half decent he should get a lot of H Cup gametime too.

    I agree that he probably won't go anywhere though.


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    #168
    Ronan Raver77
    Registered Users Posts: 1,463 ✭✭✭Ronan Raver77


    Switched on the Biarritz game earlier and saw an Irish guy playing for Grenoble.James Hart at scrumhalf any of you see him play or prospect for the future? He is only 21!!


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    #169
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    Ronan Devitt wrote: »
    Switched on the Biarritz game earlier and saw an Irish guy playing for Grenoble.James Hart at scrumhalf any of you see him play or prospect for the future? He is only 21!!

    Went to Belvedere if I remember.

    Didn't know he was actually playing for the first team. Fair play to him. Cheers Birch for getting Irish guys game time over there!


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    #170
    CIARAN_BOYLE
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 14,599 Mod ✭✭✭✭CIARAN_BOYLE


    Ronan Devitt wrote: »
    Switched on the Biarritz game earlier and saw an Irish guy playing for Grenoble.James Hart at scrumhalf any of you see him play or prospect for the future? He is only 21!!
    He also plays 10 for them too, I don't have a clue how much gametime he is getting but he has a start and two sub appearances in the Amlin this season.


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    #171
    Hype710
    Registered Users Posts: 1,000 ✭✭✭Hype710


    There's an article here about Hart (in French): http://www.metro-sports.fr/rugby/fcg/905-a-la-decouverte-de-james-hart-fc-grenoble.html

    He spent TY in Toulouse as his mother is from there. Interesting line about the Academy structure in Ireland, 'Quand on n'est pas pris, c'est fini' - 'When you're not taken (into an academy), it's over'. In France they seem to have an 'Espoirs' league for under 23s. It was indeed Birch who made the link with Grenoble after Hart played under him at Clontarf.


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    #172
    phog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,796 ✭✭✭✭phog


    With Murray (imho) having had a decent enough Lions tour is he more secure in his future for Ireland or will Joe still have to be convinced that he's the scrumhalf that he wants?


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    #173
    JagerScout
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 392 ✭✭JagerScout


    still has to be convinced but Murray still safe enough in the short term, should benefit from working with Joe aswell.

    would be pretty worried about Leinster's future SH options.

    Unconvinced by Cooney's decision making and he hasn't really developed much in the last 2 years, McGrath has everything you look for but his pass is average. Needs serious work.


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    #174
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    phog wrote: »
    With Murray (imho) having had a decent enough Lions tour is he more secure in his future for Ireland or will Joe still have to be convinced that he's the scrumhalf that he wants?

    Murray's had a great tour.

    He's starting to look like the guy that initially got his Ireland call up, but with more about him. His ponderousness at rucktime has all but disappeared, and he seems to be confident in his decision making again.

    If he continues this form and development (6N -> Lions -> AIs), we'll be onto an absolute winner with him.


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    #175
    LeeroyJones
    Registered Users Posts: 1,954 ✭✭✭LeeroyJones


    With Joe in charge I'd say he'll want two scum-halves much like Reddan and Boss at Leinster.

    Murray looks like the real deal now and will provide Ireland with added physicality. I'd say Schmidt will look to Marshall for a season or two while McGrath steps up at Leinster


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    #176
    jamiedav2011
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,906 ✭✭✭jamiedav2011


    LeeroyJones wrote: »
    With Joe in charge I'd say he'll want two scum-halves much like Reddan and Boss at Leinster.

    Murray looks like the real deal now and will provide Ireland with added physicality. I'd say Schmidt will look to Marshall for a season or two while McGrath steps up at Leinster

    I really don't think Marshall is a relation of an international SH. Would far prefer to see Marmion involved.


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    #177
    LeeroyJones
    Registered Users Posts: 1,954 ✭✭✭LeeroyJones


    jamiedav2011 wrote: »
    I really don't think Marshall is a relation of an international SH. Would far prefer to see Marmion involved.

    I'd really only have Marshall player there while McGrath, and indeed Marmion, get more gametime at provincial/H Cup level.

    Come to think of it actually, I'd probably hold onto Reddan while Marmion and McGrath get more experience. I'd still have Marshall on the squad though.


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    #178
    [Jackass]
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,193 ✭✭✭[Jackass]


    I'd say Murray will remain first choice without question, especially now, he's come into his own in the last 6 - 12 months.

    In terms of back-up, I would imagine Reddan would be next in line.

    Coming through, it really depends on how much game time the likes of McGrath and / or Cooney get (both superb prospects, McGrath has justified all of his hype so far at underage international level, Leinster A level and in his cameos for Leinster senior team, most notably the superb try he set up vs Ospreys - he looks ready for regular senior game time right now, just hope he gets it.)

    Also Marmion at Connacht looks a real prospect (displaced McGrath in U20s season before last) and Paul Marshal is good also.

    Murray is only 23 and it's his jersey for the forseable future anyway, as most lads around his age wont see nearly as much game time for a while.


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