The future at scrumhalf

jm08

Interview with Conor Murray in Examiner:

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/rugby/level-headed-murray-ready-to-step-up-fight-for-shirt-204105.html

"I’m 6ft 2ins tall and a lot of people have opinions as to what height a scrum-half should be," Murray muses.

"Rugby is becoming a bigger man’s game — players are constantly getting bigger, stronger, faster, it’s getting more physical and if I can hold my own and not be battered and bruised and take a few punishments during the year and still stand up, that’s an advantage for me."

Murray has certainly captured the admiration of Ireland’s skills coach Les Kiss, who has described him as "a sponge" in the way he constantly soaks up information.

jm08

jm08 wrote: »

Interview with Conor Murray in Examiner:

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/rugby/level-headed-murray-ready-to-step-up-fight-for-shirt-204105.html

"I’m 6ft 2ins tall and a lot of people have opinions as to what height a scrum-half should be," Murray muses.

ugh, I hate this kind of crap.

I don't care if you're 24 stone and have a limp when you walk, are 5'2" tall in heels. Get to the ball, get the ball away, get to the ball, get the ball away. Kick well occasionally. Make your tackles.

fwiw, Reddan doesn't get battered and bruised, Stringer never did (apart from a headbutt from Troncon), TO'L is 5'9" and never got beaten up on a pitch, and Iasacc Boss hasn't suffered any hits that D'Arcy or Paddy Wallace needed to leave the pitch for. Can't remember Marshall, Willis, Murphy, O'Riordan, O'Donoghue ever being forced off a pitch after shipping a massive tackle or being burst in a tackle themselves either.

I'm all for additional physicality when it's needed, but using a scrum half's height as a tool for suggestion either his inclusion or omission from a squad is ridiculous.

It's pretty much a non issue, as the examples above hold out. Cronin is a better kicker than Best, but that's got very little to do with his position. Murray's "additional physicality" isn't a strength or a weakness, it's just his size.

Leinsterr

[Quote=Ezra Low Runner;80226398 

I would probably pick 11 French Scrum halves ahead of Sexton, 2 English, 2 Welsh, a Scot and there's also an Italian that could well be a better option.

And Heaslip? Lol, playing out of his skin for an entire season in Blue and Green)[/Quote]
Well Sexton is an out half and is the 2nd best out half in the world (under Cruden). Reddan is better than any scrum halves in Europe. Heaslip is playing horribly. He's past his best, but this is about Reddan. I'd rate him in the top 5 in world rugby. He's not playing well at international because he's not getting played and he's playing under DK. Marshall is inconsistent with his passing. I think his best asset is his speed. He's a very cute/cheeky player who can pick gaps and see an opening and burst through it or pop to a player who has a chance to break the gain line. I'm not anti-Kidney, I'm pro-Irish. He's making Ireland lose so I'm against his regime

TheKeenMachine

Leinsterr wrote: »

Well Sexton is an out half and is the 2nd best out half in the world (under Cruden). Reddan is better than any scrum halves in Europe. Heaslip is playing horribly. He's past his best, but this is about Reddan. I'd rate him in the top 5 in world rugby. He's not playing well at international because he's not getting played and he's playing under DK. Marshall is inconsistent with his passing. I think his best asset is his speed. He's a very cute/cheeky player who can pick gaps and see an opening and burst through it or pop to a player who has a chance to break the gain line. I'm not anti-Kidney, I'm pro-Irish. He's making Ireland lose so I'm against his regime

Ah come on now. Sexton (or Cruden!) is not a better player than Dan Carter. Heaslip is not playing badly, he changed his game to accomodate SOB at 7 and Ben Youngs, Mike Phillips, Parra, Yachvili and possibly Laidlaw are better 9s than Reddan.

Leinsterr

TheKeenMachine wrote: »

Leinsterr wrote: »

Well Sexton is an out half and is the 2nd best out half in the world (under Cruden). Reddan is better than any scrum halves in Europe. Heaslip is playing horribly. He's past his best, but this is about Reddan. I'd rate him in the top 5 in world rugby. He's not playing well at international because he's not getting played and he's playing under DK. Marshall is inconsistent with his passing. I think his best asset is his speed. He's a very cute/cheeky player who can pick gaps and see an opening and burst through it or pop to a player who has a chance to break the gain line. I'm not anti-Kidney, I'm pro-Irish. He's making Ireland lose so I'm against his regime

Ah come on now. Sexton (or Cruden!) is not a better player than Dan Carter. Heaslip is not playing badly, he changed his game to accomodate SOB at 7 and Ben Youngs, Mike Phillips, Parra, Yachvili and possibly Laidlaw are better 9s than Reddan.

Youngs was great but is now useless. Philips is better. Parra and laidlaw, no. Yachvili....... probably.
My top 5:
Genia
Philips
Hougaard
Pienaar/ Smith
Reddan
Heaslip is playing badly. I love him, but he is

jm08

Deleted User wrote: »

ugh, I hate this kind of crap.

I don't care if you're 24 stone and have a limp when you walk, are 5'2" tall in heels. Get to the ball, get the ball away, get to the ball, get the ball away. Kick well occasionally. Make your tackles.

Stringer could do most of those things very well (a poor kicker), but he still got left behind mainly because he lacked the physicality to pose a breaking threat.

fwiw, Reddan doesn't get battered and bruised, Stringer never did (apart from a headbutt from Troncon), TO'L is 5'9" and never got beaten up on a pitch, and Iasacc Boss hasn't suffered any hits that D'Arcy or Paddy Wallace needed to leave the pitch for. Can't remember Marshall, Willis, Murphy, O'Riordan, O'Donoghue ever being forced off a pitch after shipping a massive tackle or being burst in a tackle themselves either.

Reddan doesn't get battered or bruised because in general Boss is preferred when it comes to games against teams that are a bit more physical. I've never seen any of those you mention above put in tackles like O'Leary or Murray has and in fairness, Willis has been exceptionally injury prone. Boss missed a HCup final because of an injury he picked up against Clermont. O'Leary has had a fair few injuries over the last while (and O'Leary is as hard as nails).

I'm all for additional physicality when it's needed, but using a scrum half's height as a tool for suggestion either his inclusion or omission from a squad is ridiculous.

It's pretty much a non issue, as the examples above hold out. Cronin is a better kicker than Best, but that's got very little to do with his position. Murray's "additional physicality" isn't a strength or a weakness, it's just his size.

I think his reference to height might be to do with being told he is too tall to be a scrumhalf.

Leinsterr

jm08 wrote: »

Deleted User wrote: »

ugh, I hate this kind of crap.

I don't care if you're 24 stone and have a limp when you walk, are 5'2" tall in heels. Get to the ball, get the ball away, get to the ball, get the ball away. Kick well occasionally. Make your tackles.

Stringer could do most of those things very well (a poor kicker), but he still got left behind mainly because he lacked the physicality to pose a breaking threat.

fwiw, Reddan doesn't get battered and bruised, Stringer never did (apart from a headbutt from Troncon), TO'L is 5'9" and never got beaten up on a pitch, and Iasacc Boss hasn't suffered any hits that D'Arcy or Paddy Wallace needed to leave the pitch for. Can't remember Marshall, Willis, Murphy, O'Riordan, O'Donoghue ever being forced off a pitch after shipping a massive tackle or being burst in a tackle themselves either.

Reddan doesn't get battered or bruised because in general Boss is preferred when it comes to games against teams that are a bit more physical. I've never seen any of those you mention above put in tackles like O'Leary or Murray has and in fairness, Willis has been exceptionally injury prone. Boss missed a HCup final because of an injury he picked up against Clermont. O'Leary has had a fair few injuries over the last while (and O'Leary is as hard as nails).

I'm all for additional physicality when it's needed, but using a scrum half's height as a tool for suggestion either his inclusion or omission from a squad is ridiculous.

It's pretty much a non issue, as the examples above hold out. Cronin is a better kicker than Best, but that's got very little to do with his position. Murray's "additional physicality" isn't a strength or a weakness, it's just his size.

I think his reference to height might be to do with being told he is too tall to be a scrumhalf.

TOL may be "as hard as nails" yet he can't play rugby well

jm08

jm08 wrote: »

I think his reference to height might be to do with being told he is too tall to be a scrumhalf.

His height affects his scrum half ability only when he decides to muse over it at the base of a breakdown.

The primary roles of a scrum half are being ignored, and this "added physicality" that benefits a team maybe once every 5 games, is used to explain away a deficiency. This isn't the first time, we had TO'L for years at the same stuff.

Stringer was deficient in breaking ability, about 5th on the list of tools a scrum half needs. When he was at the top of his game, he was an incredible scrum half, even without the break. TO'L at the top of his game was an incredible athelete with excellent defence. But not an incredible scrum half.

Can you see the differences? (I've purposely chosen players from one team only so as not to allow you to excuse away stuff as usual)

.ak

jm08 wrote: »

Reddan doesn't get battered or bruised because in general Boss is preferred when it comes to games against teams that are a bit more physical. I've never seen any of those you mention above put in tackles like O'Leary or Murray has and in fairness, Willis has been exceptionally injury prone. Boss missed a HCup final because of an injury he picked up against Clermont. O'Leary has had a fair few injuries over the last while (and O'Leary is as hard as nails).

Boss was always going to be the bench option for the final. Schmidt referred to it, and Reddan was supposed to start against Clermont but picked up an injury and couldn't train prior to the match so they went with the practice scrummie and that was Boss.

jm08

Leinsterr wrote: »

TOL may be "as hard as nails" yet he can't play rugby well

Just shows what injury can do to you. He was never the same again after he broke his leg playing against the Scarlets (and missing out on a Lions tour).

bamboozle

Leinsterr wrote: »

Youngs was great but is now useless. Philips is better. Parra and laidlaw, no. Yachvili....... probably.
My top 5:
Genia
Philips
Hougaard
Pienaar/ Smith
Reddan
Heaslip is playing badly. I love him, but he is

No he is not, he is playing differently, its like saying Douggie Howlett has been playing sh1te for Munster as he hasnt been scoring the same amount of trys as he did back in NZ...he's also playing differently in a different team with different tactics.

I wish people would ignore what arm chair pundits like Hook has to say and watch Heaslip's performances for what they are, 3 HC's in 4 seasons, injured in the 3rd NZ test and we get thrashed...surely he must be doing something right.

.ak

Let's try and keep the topic to scrumhalves people. Thanks.

Leinsterr

jm08 wrote: »

Leinsterr wrote: »

TOL may be "as hard as nails" yet he can't play rugby well

Just shows what injury can do to you. He was never the same again after he broke his leg playing against the Scarlets (and missing out on a Lions tour).

He wasn't that good when he was fit. He just fit into a boring conservative game which allowed us to win matches.

.ak

Leinsterr wrote: »

He wasn't that good when he was fit. He just fit into a boring conservative game which allowed us to win matches.

Oh, I see, that's why he was picked for the Lions....

jm08

Deleted User wrote: »

His height affects his scrum half ability only when he decides to muse over it at the base of a breakdown.

I'm only explaining why I think he made a reference to his height - its seen as a negative and that the small nippy scrumhalf is preferred.

The primary roles of a scrum half are being ignored, and this "added physicality" that benefits a team maybe once every 5 games, is used to explain away a deficiency. This isn't the first time, we had TO'L for years at the same stuff.

I think its a bit more than once every five games. Ireland are particularly vulnerable now in the backs with the likes of Roberts, Phillips, Tualagi, North etc. - all have pace and physicality.

Tomas O'Leary was selected for the Lions and hasn't been the same since his numerous injuries (broken leg, back problems and eye injury).

Stringer was deficient in breaking ability, about 5th on the list of tools a scrum half needs. When he was at the top of his game, he was an incredible scrum half, even without the break. TO'L at the top of his game was an incredible athelete with excellent defence. But not an incredible scrum half.

Can you see the differences? (I've purposely chosen players from one team only so as not to allow you to excuse away stuff as usual)

I can see the difference and would always have rated Stringer very highly, but the game has changed since his days of dominance and no matter how much I didn't like it at the time, I saw how and why he was dropped for O'Leary for the end of the 2008 HC campaign.

bilston

jm08 wrote: »

I think his reference to height might be to do with being told he is too tall to be a scrumhalf.

Fair enough if you're 6'5" or 6'6" playing scrum half mightn't be the best idea but I don't see a problem with being 6'1" and playing scrum half.

I must look it up but I'd imagine Pienaar is over 6 foot and in fact thinking about it Van Der Westuizen and Du Preez were both pretty tall and they are two of the finest 9s to have ever played the game and it's not just Saffers. Mike Phillips is quite tall as well and love him or hate him he's a fine player.

Being fortunate enough to be in a position to watch Ruan Pienaar play week in week out for Ulster there have been times when he's been at his best that I've looked at Murray and seen something in him that reminds me a bit of Pienaar, but he has a long way to go.

Leinsterr

bamboozle wrote: »

Leinsterr wrote: »

Youngs was great but is now useless. Philips is better. Parra and laidlaw, no. Yachvili....... probably.
My top 5:
Genia
Philips
Hougaard
Pienaar/ Smith
Reddan
Heaslip is playing badly. I love him, but he is

No he is not, he is playing differently, its like saying Douggie Howlett has been playing sh1te for Munster as he hasnt been scoring the same amount of trys as he did back in NZ...he's also playing differently in a different team with different tactics.

I wish people would ignore what arm chair pundits like Hook has to say and watch Heaslip's performances for what they are, 3 HC's in 4 seasons, injured in the 3rd NZ test and we get thrashed...surely he must be doing something right.

Firstly, I agree that Heaslip is playing differently but he is still not performing. He does the subtle things well but other than that he is not playing well. He still plays ok but badly compared to his usual standards.

CatFromHue

According to Wiki Pienaar is 6'2" and 14st 2lbs. I'd never have thought of him as a physical scrum half though, if anything it's the opposite.

Leinsterr

.ak wrote: »

Leinsterr wrote: »

He wasn't that good when he was fit. He just fit into a boring conservative game which allowed us to win matches.

Oh, I see, that's why he was picked for the Lions....

Keith Earls was also picked. Enough said

irishbucsfan

Leinsterr wrote: »

Firstly, I agree that Heaslip is playing differently but he is still not performing. He does the subtle things well but other than that he is not playing well. He still plays ok but badly compared to his usual standards.

That not true at all. He is playing just as well as ever, some people just aren't capable of seeing that though.

What was that stat last year? Led the team in turnovers in something like 14 out of 15 games over a 2 year span? He was joint top with SOB during the 6 Nations as well. Class act and his adaptability is crucial to making the Irish back row gel as well as it has.

"Playing horribly!" That's another classic right out of the George Hook Book of Openside Flankers.

molloyjh

irishbucsfan wrote: »

That not true at all. He is playing just as well as ever, some people just aren't capable of seeing that though.

What was that stat last year? Led the team in turnovers in something like 14 out of 15 games over a 2 year span? He was joint top with SOB during the 6 Nations as well. Class act and his adaptability is crucial to making the Irish back row gel as well as it has.

"Playing horribly!" That's another classic right out of the George Hook Book of Openside Flankers.

jm08

Leinsterr wrote: »

Keith Earls was also picked. Enough said

The selection of O'Leary for the Lions by Reddan's club coaches (McGeechan & Edwards) says even more.

They even selected Blair ahead of him.

Leinsterr

jm08 wrote: »

Leinsterr wrote: »

Keith Earls was also picked. Enough said

The selection of O'Leary for the Lions by Reddan's club coaches (McGeechan & Edwards) says even more.

They even selected Blair ahead of him.

But he wasn't with Leinster. He rejuvenated himself at Leinster. Earls was useless all round.

molloyjh

Leinsterr wrote: »

But he wasn't with Leinster. He rejuvenated himself at Leinster. Earls was useless all round.

Maybe I should have saved that pic for this post. Earls was most certainly not useless. And still isn't.

jm08

Leinsterr wrote: »

But he wasn't with Leinster. He rejuvenated himself at Leinster. Earls was useless all round.

A Heineken Cup & a Premiership title says his couple of years at Wasps weren't exactly a waste of his talent!

CIARAN_BOYLE

CatFromHue wrote: »

According to Wiki Pienaar is 6'2" and 14st 2lbs. I'd never have thought of him as a physical scrum half though, if anything it's the opposite.

He is capable of doing the job of a physical SH but has the skills that he doesn't do the physical role

irishbucsfan

jm08 wrote: »

A Heineken Cup & a Premiership title says his couple of years at Wasps weren't exactly a waste of his talent!

And he captained them!

But also don't forget he lost his place. Wasn't very highly rated in Wycombe by the time he left, considering what they'd achieved while he was there. He is far better now.

jacothelad

jm08 wrote: »

Poor man management me eye. Boss injured and Tomas O'Leary now not attached to an Irish province (moving to a new club in England who would want him on time for preseason). I'm sure Paddy Wallace was advised of the consequences of signing an international contract (like turning up to play when you are asked). John Hayes & Gordon D'Arcy were called up late to a Lions Tour because of injury and I haven't heard anyone moaning them having to give up their holidays plans (think D'Arcy was in the States on holidays). Maybe Paddy Wallace should have stayed training in Belfast which is what he was expected to do instead of going off on his family holiday to Portugal.

I see you still spout the usual ill informed twaddle.

Leinsterr

molloyjh wrote: »

Leinsterr wrote: »

But he wasn't with Leinster. He rejuvenated himself at Leinster. Earls was useless all round.

Maybe I should have saved that pic for this post. Earls was most certainly not useless. And still isn't.

I disagree. He scored 1 fairly good try. Useless other than that.

CatFromHue

Leinsterr wrote: »

I disagree. He scored 1 fairly good try. Useless other than that.

Was useless the word of the day on your toilet paper?

12 tries at international level from 26 starts + 6 sub appearances
21 tries for Munster from 64 starts + 6 sun appearances.

Considering he is the third top try scorer in the Ireland squad at the moment and is the third or fourth top try scorer in the Munster squad at the moment by your logic we have an awful lot of useless players!