The future at scrumhalf

jacothelad

totallegend wrote: »

1) He's 27 and never really established himself in Ulster
2) He won't get any top-level game time while Pienaar is in situ
3) The Ulster fans on here, who should be the ones pushing his credentials, don't seem to rate him.

He's a very exciting player but there are doubts over his abilities to do the fundamentals consistently well. I'd love to see him get more time for Ulster because I think he can add a real spark to a game, but as it is, he's just too unproven to be thrown into the national squad.

He will get plenty of games for Ulster - once he has the brace removed from his arm. Pienaar isn't available until October. Marshall needed the op but it was delayed so he could go to N.Z. and scratch his arse for a few weeks. I'm sure he was happy to do so but in reality he was never going to get a look in under Kidney. He should have been allowed to get the treatment in a timely manner. Paddy Wallace also was the victim of a delayed operation because of the tour. Very poor man management imo.

Morf

jacothelad wrote: »

. He should have been allowed to get the treatment in a timely manner. Paddy Wallace also was the victim of a delayed operation because of the tour. Very poor man management imo.

Add Sean O'Brien to that.

Casander

totallegend wrote: »

1) He's 27 and never really established himself in Ulster
2) He won't get any top-level game time while Pienaar is in situ
3) The Ulster fans on here, who should be the ones pushing his credentials, don't seem to rate him.

4) He's highly erratic, completely inconsistent.

Apparently Dave Moore impressed for Connacht against Exeter, after just signing from Harlequins. Blackrock College product. Anyone seen enough of him to rate him?

Hagz

Casander wrote: »

4) He's highly erratic, completely inconsistent.

Apparently Dave Moore impressed for Connacht against Exeter, after just signing from Harlequins. Blackrock College product. Anyone seen enough of him to rate him?

He was with Connacht all last season.

Casander

Hagz wrote: »

He was with Connacht all last season.

Yes indeed.

Casander

Casander wrote: »

4) He's highly erratic, completely inconsistent.

No he's not.

He was in previous seasons, but he was consistently a strong bench option last season.

His style does not suit a starting role, as his impact is greatly enhanced vs tired legs etc, and he has been found guilty of trying to force things too early in the past.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with being a specialist impact substitute.

jm08

jacothelad wrote: »

He will get plenty of games for Ulster - once he has the brace removed from his arm. Pienaar isn't available until October. Marshall needed the op but it was delayed so he could go to N.Z. and scratch his arse for a few weeks. I'm sure he was happy to do so but in reality he was never going to get a look in under Kidney. He should have been allowed to get the treatment in a timely manner. Paddy Wallace also was the victim of a delayed operation because of the tour. Very poor man management imo.

Poor man management me eye. Boss injured and Tomas O'Leary now not attached to an Irish province (moving to a new club in England who would want him on time for preseason). I'm sure Paddy Wallace was advised of the consequences of signing an international contract (like turning up to play when you are asked). John Hayes & Gordon D'Arcy were called up late to a Lions Tour because of injury and I haven't heard anyone moaning them having to give up their holidays plans (think D'Arcy was in the States on holidays). Maybe Paddy Wallace should have stayed training in Belfast which is what he was expected to do instead of going off on his family holiday to Portugal.

jm08

Deleted User wrote: »

No he's not.

He was in previous seasons, but he was consistently a strong bench option last season.

His style does not suit a starting role, as his impact is greatly enhanced vs tired legs etc, and he has been found guilty of trying to force things too early in the past.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with being a specialist impact substitute.

So what happens when your scrumhalf gets injured in the first 10 mins of the game. Would someone used to playing 20 mins cameos be able to even last the 60-80 mins. at international level? Bench isn't just there to provide impact subs, particularly in pivotel positions.

irishbucsfan

jm08 wrote: »

Poor man management me eye. Boss injured and Tomas O'Leary now not attached to an Irish province (moving to a new club in England who would want him on time for preseason). I'm sure Paddy Wallace was advised of the consequences of signing an international contract (like turning up to play when you are asked). John Hayes & Gordon D'Arcy were called up late to a Lions Tour because of injury and I haven't heard anyone moaning them having to give up their holidays plans (think D'Arcy was in the States on holidays). Maybe Paddy Wallace should have stayed training in Belfast which is what he was expected to do instead of going off on his family holiday to Portugal.

Do you understand what man management and player welfare actually means?

Paddy needed surgery. Having him on standby at all in the first place was the mistake. If he had the choice to take the surgery and start rehab early rather than going on holiday then he would have.

Also, to compund that, the IRFU expressly advised all their playing staff to take complete breaks from rugby for an advised period of circa 5 weeks. During that period they're supposed to get away from training completely for a while. Paddy has to follow that plan just as everyone else. As he wasn't selected, he would have had to take that break during that period as he would be expected back in pre-season with Ulster at the earliest possible stage due to not going on tour.

Everything he did, and all these little choices that players make, are under direction from the IRFU. It was Kidney's choice to leave him out originally and his choice to then call him up and expect him to play the All Blacks on a whim, and Kidney is fully aware of what the players are instructed to do. Kidney must have an extremely high opinion of him! Blaming Paddy Wallace for doing what is expected of him is ludicrous.

jm08

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Do you understand what man management and player welfare actually means?

Paddy needed surgery. Having him on standby at all in the first place was the mistake. If he had the choice to take the surgery and start rehab early rather than going on holiday then he would have.

Also, to compund that, the IRFU expressly advised all their playing staff to take complete breaks from rugby for an advised period of circa 5 weeks. During that period they're supposed to get away from training completely for a while. Paddy has to follow that plan just as everyone else. As he wasn't selected, he would have had to take that break during that period as he would be expected back in pre-season with Ulster at the earliest possible stage due to not going on tour.

Everything he did, and all these little choices that players make, are under direction from the IRFU. It was Kidney's choice to leave him out originally and his choice to then call him up and expect him to play the All Blacks on a whim, and Kidney is fully aware of what the players are instructed to do. Kidney must have an extremely high opinion of him! Blaming Paddy Wallace for doing what is expected of him is ludicrous.

Paddy Wallace was put on stand-by - that meant he had to keep himself fit (and I recall reading somewhere that he trained every day with some of the Ulster fitness guys - so he had been training away in Belfast and from what I remember he was only in Portugal on his family holiday about a day or so when he was called up).

Paddy Wallace is due back for the Heineken Cup - about the same as all the other internationals who were on tour to NZ. Whats the problem with Paddy Wallace missing - this is an opportunity for Marshall and a few others to push for a starting spot.

P. Marshall travelling to NZ has become an issue for Ulster because Ruan Pienaar got called up to sit on SA's bench! Missing Pienaar is far more serious than missing Paddy Wallace.

Leinsterr

irishbucsfan wrote: »

jm08 wrote: »

Poor man management me eye. Boss injured and Tomas O'Leary now not attached to an Irish province (moving to a new club in England who would want him on time for preseason). I'm sure Paddy Wallace was advised of the consequences of signing an international contract (like turning up to play when you are asked). John Hayes & Gordon D'Arcy were called up late to a Lions Tour because of injury and I haven't heard anyone moaning them having to give up their holidays plans (think D'Arcy was in the States on holidays). Maybe Paddy Wallace should have stayed training in Belfast which is what he was expected to do instead of going off on his family holiday to Portugal.

Do you understand what man management and player welfare actually means?

Paddy needed surgery. Having him on standby at all in the first place was the mistake. If he had the choice to take the surgery and start rehab early rather than going on holiday then he would have.

Also, to compund that, the IRFU expressly advised all their playing staff to take complete breaks from rugby for an advised period of circa 5 weeks. During that period they're supposed to get away from training completely for a while. Paddy has to follow that plan just as everyone else. As he wasn't selected, he would have had to take that break during that period as he would be expected back in pre-season with Ulster at the earliest possible stage due to not going on tour.

Everything he did, and all these little choices that players make, are under direction from the IRFU. It was Kidney's choice to leave him out originally and his choice to then call him up and expect him to play the All Blacks on a whim, and Kidney is fully aware of what the players are instructed to do. Kidney must have an extremely high opinion of him! Blaming Paddy Wallace for doing what is expected of him is ludicrous.

I don't know how Wallace ever got an Irish cap. He is utterly useless. This is not a personal jab it is just pure fact. We have Fergie who is a quality 12, not a winger, and we have so much better wingers waiting to be called up eg Gilroy (a bit unrealistic). We could have put BOD to 12 and bring in cave at 13 who has been waiting to take over for BOD for years and is one of our best hopes to replace BOD but no, DK plays our worst 12. Dispicable

Leinsterr

Leinsterr wrote: »

I don't know how Wallace ever got an Irish cap. He is utterly useless. This is not a personal jab it is just pure fact. We have Fergie who is a quality 12, not a winger, and we have so much better wingers waiting to be called up eg Gilroy (a bit unrealistic). We could have put BOD to 12 and bring in cave at 13 who has been waiting to take over for BOD for years and is one of our best hopes to replace BOD but no, DK plays our worst 12. Dispicable

There's so much wrong here I felt that highlighting the parts that were right was easier.

bilston

Leinsterr wrote: »

I don't know how Wallace ever got an Irish cap. He is utterly useless. This is not a personal jab it is just pure fact. We have Fergie who is a quality 12, not a winger, and we have so much better wingers waiting to be called up eg Gilroy (a bit unrealistic). We could have put BOD to 12 and bring in cave at 13 who has been waiting to take over for BOD for years and is one of our best hopes to replace BOD but no, DK plays our worst 12. Dispicable

I never understand the argument that Wallace is "utterly useless" never mind the worse abuse he gets on Twitter. Wallace is a very talented and classy rugby player. He is the perfect example of a 2nd 5/8th. If he played for Leinster he'd flourish just like he does for Ulster. However when he plays Kidneyball for Ireland he's used as a crash ball option and the net result is that he ends up getting concussion. Anyway he isn't the future anyway so it's a pointless debate and I shouldn't have bitten but there you go...

Anyway as for Paul Marshall (this is a scrum half thread after all), he has a place in the irish squad IF Kidney or whoever the coach is want to use himn as an impact sub but I just don't see him as a starting option. However he will get a lot of starts over the next couple of months so we'll see how he goes.

irishbucsfan

jm08 wrote: »

Paddy Wallace was put on stand-by - that meant he had to keep himself fit (and I recall reading somewhere that he trained every day with some of the Ulster fitness guys - so he had been training away in Belfast and from what I remember he was only in Portugal on his family holiday about a day or so when he was called up).

Paddy Wallace is due back for the Heineken Cup - about the same as all the other internationals who were on tour to NZ. Whats the problem with Paddy Wallace missing - this is an opportunity for Marshall and a few others to push for a starting spot.

Sorry, this isn't true. You're connecting dots that don't exist here. He was left out and given further instructions by the IRFU. He followed them as did plenty of others. Then he was expected to turn around and play the All Blacks straight up with barely any time in the squad. Terrible selection.

P. Marshall travelling to NZ has become an issue for Ulster because Ruan Pienaar got called up to sit on SA's bench! Missing Pienaar is far more serious than missing Paddy Wallace.

I don't have an issue with Paul Marshall travelling to New Zealand. He was covering for injury and it was good to have him there just in case that injury happened. So... why wasn't the same true for Paddy Wallace?

Ulster's situation doesn't come into it as far as I'm concerned. The provinces are there to facilitate the IRFU.

irishbucsfan

Until Paul Marshall can prove he can handle the starting role then I don't think we can use him on the bench. There's a real risk that he will be needed from the very beginning and that's not a risk you can take at that level.

Hopefully this season he'll show more consistency in his games as a starter.

irishbucsfan

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Until Paul Marshall can prove he can handle the starting role then I don't think we can use him on the bench. There's a real risk that he will be needed from the very beginning and that's not a risk you can take at that level.

Hopefully this season he'll show more consistency in his games as a starter.

1 game in professional era where we've lost our starting scrum half within the first 20 mins (freak accident, Reddan charging a ball down with his chin). It's not a position that ships many impacts / heavy tackles / pulled muscles etc that would be game-enders.

bilston

Deleted User wrote: »

1 game in professional era where we've lost our starting scrum half within the first 20 mins (freak accident, Reddan charging a ball down with his chin). It's not a position that ships many impacts / heavy tackles / pulled muscles etc that would be game-enders.

I think that's a good point. It's rare for scrum halfs to get injured, it's the same with out halfs (apart from Jonny Wilkinson!). I can still see Buccs point though.

In saying that here's a thought. When Marshall comes off the bench as an impact he usually shines, but when that happens Pienaar moves to 10. When Marshall starts at 9 he sometimes doesn't go as well but then when he starts at 9 it usually means Humphreys (in the past) or Jackson are at 10. I assume you can all see what I'm getting at!

It would be facinating to see Marshall and Sexton link up at half back some time but I'm not sure when the opportunity for this will ever come about unless Marshall starts a big international which seems unlikely for now. The time to try it was in NZ.

irishbucsfan

Deleted User wrote: »

1 game in professional era where we've lost our starting scrum half within the first 20 mins (freak accident, Reddan charging a ball down with his chin). It's not a position that ships many impacts / heavy tackles / pulled muscles etc that would be game-enders.

For the majority of the professional era we had Peter Stringer, who was very low-impact. But Conor Murray is much more of a risk (and he got himself injured against France for example) due to the way he plays. So I'd personally prefer someone capable of playing 80 minutes. I'm not saying that isn't Paul Marshall though.

I think Marshall and Sexton could be dynamite. Much in how I wished we'd gotten some time with Stringer and Sexton in 2009/2010.

irishbucsfan

Deleted User wrote: »

I think Marshall and Sexton could be dynamite. Much in how I wished we'd gotten some time with Stringer and Sexton in 2009/2010.

With the Marshall we saw in the last 20 minutes of Ulster games last season I think Sexton could look better than ever.

With the Marshall we saw at other times it could be a disaster, Sexton can look very shaky and indecisive in those situations, for example the first half against Italy last season.

yimrsg

irishbucsfan wrote: »

For the majority of the professional era we had Peter Stringer, who was very low-impact. But Conor Murray is much more of a risk (and he got himself injured against France for example) due to the way he plays. So I'd personally prefer someone capable of playing 80 minutes. I'm not saying that isn't Paul Marshall though.

I think it was someone on this forum said or quoted a source that if a scrummie plays 80 minutes then he wasn't playing hard enough for those 80 minutes, basically he should be knackered by 60 minutes and need to come off. A potential plus for Marshall this year is that Pienaar will be required to play/cover at 10 more often this year with Humphreys now gone. It'll leave Ulster less depth in key positions but those players should get more gametime.

jm08

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Sorry, this isn't true. You're connecting dots that don't exist here. He was left out and given further instructions by the IRFU. He followed them as did plenty of others. Then he was expected to turn around and play the All Blacks straight up with barely any time in the squad. Terrible selection.

He played against the Ba-Bas at the start of the tour.

But having played against the Barbarians in Gloucester three weeks ago, his place in the starting team as a direct replacement for the departed Gordon D’Arcy was confirmed after a full session yesterday.
“It’s great to be called in. I was disappointed not to make the original squad, but I kept training away. The Baa-Baas game was important from that point of view and then I just kept myself ticking over with Stephen Bell back in Ulster.
“He’s an ex-player and personal trainer, and I hooked up with him for three weeks. It’s beneficial that I was doing that having got the call-up.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/0621/1224318355602.html

By the way, the loss to NZ isn't down to Paddy Wallace. The whole team (including BOD who had started all games against NZ) was poor with a few notable exceptions in the forwardss.

I don't have an issue with Paul Marshall travelling to New Zealand. He was covering for injury and it was good to have him there just in case that injury happened. So... why wasn't the same true for Paddy Wallace?

None of us here are privy to who was carrying knocks and their state of fitness and who might have needed additional cover. There was a limit to the number they could bring. There would have been blue murder on here if Paddy Wallace was brought instead of Darran Cave.

Fair enough you don't have an issue with him travelling. Some other posters seem to think he should not have gone as he needed an operation.

Ulster's situation doesn't come into it as far as I'm concerned. The provinces are there to facilitate the IRFU.

Fair enough - but I doubt if there would such gurning about Paddy Wallace & P Marshall if Ruan Pienaar was available who won't get more than a few minutes of rugby in the next couple of months because he will be benching for SA.

irishbucsfan

yimrsg wrote: »

I think it was someone on this forum said or quoted a source that if a scrummie plays 80 minutes then he wasn't playing hard enough for those 80 minutes, basically he should be knackered by 60 minutes and need to come off. A potential plus for Marshall this year is that Pienaar will be required to play/cover at 10 more often this year with Humphreys now gone. It'll leave Ulster less depth in key positions but those players should get more gametime.

That's absolutely true, but in a situation where you're off the bench early there is noone to come on for you so you don't really have much of an option but to change down a gear and play to the final whistle. Some scrum halves don't have the head for that kind of game.

yimrsg

Completely off topic but Wallace was left in limbo by the IRFU and Kidney. Either he should have been left out all together and get the OP or travel with the team to NZ, he was in and out of the side more often than participants in Lanigan's ball. How poorly his circumstances were managed is indicative of how badly the game is controlled by those in the highest positions within the IRFU. Also SOB played the tour when he needed surgery.

bilston

yimrsg wrote: »

Completely off topic but Wallace was left in limbo by the IRFU and Kidney. Either he should have been left out all together and get the OP or travel with the team to NZ, he was in and out of the side more often than participants in Lanigan's ball. How poorly his circumstances were managed is indicative of how badly the game is controlled by those in the highest positions within the IRFU. Also SOB played the tour when he needed surgery.

The thing is the IRFU probably look at from an Ireland point of view. Whether Wallace, Marshall or SOB were fit to play Pro 12 rugby in September or October is not important to them, it's whether they are fit to play in November against Argentina and South Africa. In SOB's case this may backfire on the IRFU but I imagine that's where they are coming from. We have to remember that the provinces serve the national team.

Leinsterr

emmet02 wrote: »

I think Marshall and Sexton could be dynamite. Much in how I wished we'd gotten some time with Stringer and Sexton in 2009/2010.

I think you are right to a certain extent but at the moment Reddan is far superior to any of the scrum halves in Ireland and in Europe. Reddan makes Sexton tick. Sexton thrives off quick ball and a snappy, accurate pass, which Marshall hasn't been able to deliver, unlike Reddan. They know each other inside out which gives Leinster a cutting edge against most teams. Maybe we could have beaten Wales if we played Reddan at the RWC. Murray was brought in out of nowhere. Had a few good performances for Munster and automatically gets a starting role. I wouldn't have been annoyed if Murray was outstanding for Munster but he wasn't. Reddan played amazing all year and gets dumped onto the bench for one of the biggest games in Irish rugby history. I'm not saying Murray lost us the game but Reddan could have got us onto the front foot and the Welsh wouldn't have been able to cope with us.
Anyway, Murray needs to rediscover himself with Munster this season. He is not of international standard but he can be, in time. DK is making him do too much which he can't handle. If we had a proper functioning coaching set up, players should be picked on form. At the moment, we are playing DOC, Murray, D'arcy, Earls, Heaslip its just disgraceful. We should be saying that if you don't play well, you don't play. No point on picking players in past reputations.

jm08

yimrsg wrote: »

Completely off topic but Wallace was left in limbo by the IRFU and Kidney. Either he should have been left out all together and get the OP or travel with the team to NZ, he was in and out of the side more often than participants in Lanigan's ball. How poorly his circumstances were managed is indicative of how badly the game is controlled by those in the highest positions within the IRFU. Also SOB played the tour when he needed surgery.

It was unfortunate that there were so many injuries - some even got injured while playing for the provinces.

It would have been a different story if Paul O'Connell, Stephen Ferris, Luke Fitz & Tommy Bowe were fit to travel.

It was unfortunate that D'Arcy & Heaslip got injured (as Ireland were well on their way to a 2nd string team by the 3rd Test).

As for Paddy Wallace - don't forget he has been involved for the world cup and 6Ns (and that there might have been an injury question mark over Keith Earls who missed the 2nd test).

Leinsterr

Leinsterr wrote: »

I think you are right to a certain extent but at the moment Reddan is far superior to any of the scrum halves in Ireland and in Europe. Reddan makes Sexton tick. Sexton thrives off quick ball and a snappy, accurate pass, which Marshall hasn't been able to deliver, unlike Reddan. They know each other inside out which gives Leinster a cutting edge against most teams. Maybe we could have beaten Wales if we played Reddan at the RWC. Murray was brought in out of nowhere. Had a few good performances for Munster and automatically gets a starting role. I wouldn't have been annoyed if Murray was outstanding for Munster but he wasn't. Reddan played amazing all year and gets dumped onto the bench for one of the biggest games in Irish rugby history. I'm not saying Murray lost us the game but Reddan could have got us onto the front foot and the Welsh wouldn't have been able to cope with us.
Anyway, Murray needs to rediscover himself with Munster this season. He is not of international standard but he can be, in time. DK is making him do too much which he can't handle. If we had a proper functioning coaching set up, players should be picked on form. At the moment, we are playing DOC, Murray, D'arcy, Earls, Heaslip its just disgraceful. We should be saying that if you don't play well, you don't play. No point on picking players in past reputations.

I would probably pick 11 French Scrum halves ahead of Reddan, 2 English, 2 Welsh, a Scot and there's also an Italian that could well be a better option.

Reddan is good. He's not great.

Also, Marshall's quick snappy passing is probably his finest attribute! You're talking nonsense. I'm a massive Leinster fan, but I don't feel the need to artificially inflate the worth of players that we have at our disposal, and certainly don't need to belittle other options when it comes to the National Side. I'm also very anti-Kidney, but you're taking the biscuit with the Blood Eyes business. (And Heaslip? Lol, playing out of his skin for an entire season in Blue and Green)

totallegend

Deleted User wrote: »

I would probably pick 11 French Scrum halves ahead of Sexton, 2 English, 2 Welsh, a Scot and there's also an Italian that could well be a better option.

Reddan is good. He's not great.

Presume you mean Reddan there, but think you're being very harsh on him. Apart from the occasional crazy option that he takes, he's a top-class SH. Fair enough, probably once a match you're thinking "what the hell was he trying there?" but he does at least try things.

He's not going down in history as an all-time great but he's a lot better than you give him credit for.

totallegend

totallegend wrote: »

Presume you mean Reddan there, but think you're being very harsh on him. Apart from the occasional crazy option that he takes, he's a top-class SH. Fair enough, probably once a match you're thinking "what the hell was he trying there?" but he does at least try things.

He's not going down in history as an all-time great but he's a lot better than you give him credit for.

He's good. Not great.

Guys like Yachvilli, Parra, Dupuy, Care, Youngs, Simpson, Phillips, Knoyle, Blair are all better than him. They're all more rounded.

It's not a sleight on him, they're all really very good scrum halfs.