The future at scrumhalf

jm08

Hagz wrote: »

Phillips is much more of a threat than Murray if you ask me. He's the guy I'm most worried about when we come up against Wales.

Seem to be impressed with Murray on the Rugby Site.

But the greatest anti-depressant for Gatland must be the emergence of Conor Murray. It is very hard for the Lions to win a test series without a decent number nine. The ’71 and ’74 teams had the great Gareth Edwards, the ’89 team were driven by Robert Jones and in ’97 the underrated Matt Dawson made one of the key plays of the series.


Murray’s performance against Argentina suggested that he may become an important man in Gatland’s side. He is a strong lad and a decent defender, who often plays as a close-in sweeper, stepping forward to block the holes that oft appear in Ireland’s defence.


But particularly impressive at the weekend was Murray’s switches of direction with his pass and arcing flat runs to hold the opposition defence. Jonathan Sexton frequently stands far too deep at fly-half, but Murray is at last providing Ireland with some sort of sustained threat near the gain line.

http://www.therugbysite.com/blog_posts/279-conor-murray-gives-gatland-reason-not-to-jump-by-mark-reason

Fishooks13

Hagz wrote: »

Phillips is much more of a threat than Murray if you ask me. He's the guy I'm most worried about when we come up against Wales.

Obviously Phillips always has that ability to break and change a game. But I really don't rate his general play at all. Think he's very overrated.

Hagz

jm08 wrote: »

Seem to be impressed with Murray on the Rugby Site.

I thought I was about to read a quote from Gatland expressing how impressed he was......

Listen, I'm a fan of Murray, he's without doubt the no.1 SH in Ireland right now, but he has a way to go before he's in the same bracket as Phillips.

And I've never heard of the Rugby Site, or Mark Reason......so yeah.

Higher

Best scrum half in Ireland right now is Isaac Boss in my opinion. Playing some great stuff

jm08

Hagz wrote: »

I thought I was about to read a quote from Gatland expressing how impressed he was......

Listen, I'm a fan of Murray, he's without doubt the no.1 SH in Ireland right now, but he has a way to go before he's in the same bracket as Phillips.

And I've never heard of the Rugby Site, or Mark Reason......so yeah.

I like and rate Phillips a lot, I don't think his form (and discipline) has been that good lately.

The Rugby site is excellent - it makes its money by selling training videos by coaches like Wayne Smith, Graham Henry etc. (they even have a Joe Schmidt video) and players like Dan Carter, Richie, Vic Matfield etc. Most of those also blog a bit, so its interesting to get a SH perspective.

Mark Reason is an English sports journalist based in NZ.

Hagz

Boss has played the least amount of rugby this season out of Marshall/Marmion/Reddan/Murray.
Only played more than a half of rugby 3 times this season before saturday. Outside of that he's played in 5 games consisting of 15-20 minute cameos.
Knee-jerk reaction to his MOM performance on saturday in my opinion.

Marmion has been brilliant for a kid playing his first season of professional rugby, but I'd still consider him too raw. He should definitely play in the Wolfhounds game and against USA/Canada.
Marshall has been brilliant as well, but his erratic nature would deter me from starting him. He's a very useful bench option however.
Murray started the season off quite poorly, but seems to have gotten his act together. Getting back to playing the kind rugby he was playing when he first came on the scene.
Reddan has had a poor season by his standards. He's shown glimpses of good play, but he's not been consistent enough.
Boss has played too little rugby for me to have an opinion of him, but on saturday he played very well, however I don't think the technique of sniping round the fringes will reap the same rewards at international level.

Fishooks13

Higher wrote: »

Best scrum half in Ireland right now is Isaac Boss in my opinion. Playing some great stuff

tad reactionary

Marmion, Murray and Reddan have all been playing much more rugby, and while I think Boss is a very solid player, he shouldn't be even considered for Ireland anymore.

Higher

Fishooks13 wrote: »

tad reactionary

Marmion, Murray and Reddan have all been playing much more rugby, and while I think Boss is a very solid player, he shouldn't be even considered for Ireland anymore.

Form is form. Whenever hes played I've been impressed. He was great in a huge game against Clermont and excellent again last week.

Why shouldn't he be considered for Ireland anymore? Anyone whos playing better than the incumbent should be considered.

clsmooth

I struggle to see the hype around Murray. Hes slow to get the pass away, isn't much of a sniper and doesnt get the forwards going. His main attributes are that he is quite big and a decent defender. The only great game I've seen him play was against Argentina where he did switch play nicely and give Sexton some nice passes. Aside from that, I think he's extremely average.

Some things that stick in my mind from recent games are his brainfart v Racing which lost them that game, and giving 2 free kicks away for not putting the ball in quickly in the scrum v NZ in the second test despite being told.

Hagz

clsmooth wrote: »

I struggle to see the hype around Murray.

I think anyone would struggle to see it. It's so minuscule you'd need a microscope.

Higher

Hagz wrote: »

I think anyone would struggle to see it. It's so minuscule you'd need a microscope.

Murray is hugely hyped. Not on these forums maybe but in the media and amongst pundits its ridiculous.

Hagz

Higher wrote: »

Murray is hugely hyped. Not on these forums maybe but in the media and amongst pundits its ridiculous.

I think it's balanced out by the number of people on here who put him down.

Fishooks13

Higher wrote: »

Form is form. Whenever hes played I've been impressed. He was great in a huge game against Clermont and excellent again last week.

Why shouldn't he be considered for Ireland anymore? Anyone whos playing better than the incumbent should be considered.

He's 32 and has never really looked like being a top international 9. Murray and Marmion are playing just as well over a longer period this season and both could be top class. It's a no brainer

clsmooth

Fishooks13 wrote: »

He's 32 and has never really looked like being a top international 9. Murray and Marmion are playing just as well over a longer period this season and both could be top class. It's a no brainer

You think Murray could get to the level of someone like Genia?

Fishooks13

clsmooth wrote: »

You think Murray could get to the level of someone like Genia?

Very hard to say. I think he'll be a very good international 9 though. Himself and Marmion have got the potential to be very good.

Podge_irl

Murray suffered through no fault of his own by being catapulted into the international team far before he was ready. While infuriating in his play he was steadily improving but should not have been doing it in the situation in which he was. He was alright in the last 6N and pretty good in the AIs. I have hopes that he'll actually become quite a good scrum half but it was appallingly bad management by Kidney.

Hagz

I think Murray's probably got about 3-4 years before he fades out of the international scene.

Fireball07

Hagz wrote: »

I think Murray's probably got about 3-4 years before he fades out of the international scene.

I think Murray is pretty good myself, and I'd disagree with that.


As long as Murray starts for Munster, he's going to at least be in contention for an Ireland jersey. Haugh might possibly overtake him there, I don't know much about Haugh, but Murray is a pretty well-rounded scrum-half. His pass is generally pretty good, he's got a decent breaking threat, his kicking is excellent and his defence is superb. Not perfect, but he has a good skillset and will likely improve.

Elsewhere, well McGrath was always highly rated, if he takes the Leinster 9 shirt and grows into the jersey, well, he's got huge amounts of talent. There's always Cooney too who looks pretty good.

Marmion is playing really well but I wouldn't say he's definitely better than Murray...I think he should be given a chance with Ireland.

And then Marshall and Heaney...Marshall is good but I don't know if he'd permanently displace Murray. Hard to know how good Heaney will be, haven't seen enough of him tbh.


I don't think he'll fade away internationally in that space of time.

stephen_n

If Murray's speed of distribution from the ruck doesn't improve, I couldn't see him surviving a change in management. He has got a lot of good aspects to his game but his decision making process is too slow for international rugby. After watching Marmion against Leinster last weekend, I would imagine within two years if he keeps developing he will overtake Murray, unless of course Kidney by some miracle is still in charge at that point.

cp

have to say I find a lot of the commentary on Murray to be a little bit unfair and not all too accurate and/or up to date. Murray's in fine form at the minute and his last performance in green was excellent IMO.

Its somewhat ironic to see people lamenting his lack of threat around the fringes now, when he was being criticized for taking on too much ball himself only a few short months ago. Its gotten to the point now where it seems to me there's a degree of micro-analysis going on that you don't see with most other players.

This happens from time to time with other players as well in competitive positions, and that's fine, but whats needed is for people to take a step back and look at the bigger picture. Murray fits the bill nicely for the prototypical modern scrum half; Good defender, decent pass, fixes opposition defenses around the fringes, big, reasonably accurate boot. Nobody's suggesting he's the number worlds No.1 proponent of any of these skills individually, but as a whole package, he is IMO a quality operator, with plenty of potential to advance even further in the coming years.

totallegend

stephen_n wrote: »

If Murray's speed of distribution from the ruck doesn't improve, I couldn't see him surviving a change in management. He has got a lot of good aspects to his game but his decision making process is too slow for international rugby.

For me, that's the one stumbling block to Murray really making the grade. Whether it's a lack of confidence or lack of focus, he just takes too long over the ball.

Other aspects of his game, particularly his kicking, have been much improved this season. He had a shocker with the boot against SA but generally he's been good. He's noticeably quicker getting to the breakdown than in previous seasons, his pass looks to be quicker, so there are grounds for optimism.

I wouldn't write him off but he needs to keep improving, his current level is not quite good enough.

irishbucsfan

I really haven't had a problem with Murray's speed at the breakdown at all this season. He's been generally pretty good. In comparison to last season it's a transformation, the Italy game in the 6 Nations for example was atrocious. This season he's playing good heads up rugby and he should finally be starting for Ireland for reasons based on reality.

Also TL, did he really have a shocker with the boot against South Africa? I think I remember 2 bad kicks from him and I went through that game in quite a bit of detail afterwards. I would say he (and the tadpole) had a shocker for other reasons, but I don't remember his kicking standing out.

Fishooks13

totallegend wrote: »

For me, that's the one stumbling block to Murray really making the grade. Whether it's a lack of confidence or lack of focus, he just takes too long over the ball.

Other aspects of his game, particularly his kicking, have been much improved this season. He had a shocker with the boot against SA but generally he's been good. He's noticeably quicker getting to the breakdown than in previous seasons, his pass looks to be quicker, so there are grounds for optimism.

I wouldn't write him off but he needs to keep improving, his current level is not quite good enough.

I'd say that this hasn't been a problem at all this season. Struggling to think of a game bar the Fiji one where he was too slow

totallegend

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I really haven't had a problem with Murray's speed at the breakdown at all this season. He's been generally pretty good. In comparison to last season it's a transformation, the Italy game in the 6 Nations for example was atrocious. This season he's playing good heads up rugby and he should finally be starting for Ireland for reasons based on reality.

Also TL, did he really have a shocker with the boot against South Africa? I think I remember 2 bad kicks from him and I went through that game in quite a bit of detail afterwards. I would say he (and the tadpole) had a shocker for other reasons, but I don't remember his kicking standing out.

The tadpole?

Maybe it's selective memory kicking in, but I definitely remember throwing my hands up in frustration a couple of times at poorly judged box-kicks. But like I said, he's been good with the boot most of this season so don't want to focus on one match.

@ Fishooks, I have to disagree. He's been quicker than previous but still needs to get the ball away from the base faster than what he is doing. He has the pass to do it but he's too fond of waiting for his backs to be in a perfect line, or the eight to present it perfectly from the scrum. We (Ireland) just don't generate enough silver-platter possession for the SH to be remotely ponderous.

I'd agree with IBF, he's at the point where he's in the Ireland jersey on merit (as opposed to being there on the basis of Kidney's anti-Reddan vendetta) but he's still only 23, has less than two years of front-line rugby behind him, there's still plenty of scope for development.

Higher

Murray has definitely improved. Considerably. I would no longer begrudge him starting for Ireland these days.

smurphy29

Murray most definitely has the ingredients to be a top scrum half. I think he was poorly coached at Munster for some time. When he first came into the team he was excellent, but regressed over the next season. It looked to me like McGahan wanted him to be an auxiliary backrow, because he lacked ball-carriers in his pack. As a result, Murray too often looked to break and delayed his pass to the outhalf, or ran down a blind alley.

It's taken a while to iron this tendency out of his game, but in the match against Argentina he played very differently to how he has done. He used his running skills to create space for Sexton, by releasing the ball at the right moment, as opposed to looking to take contact himself. Essentially, he played for his 10, and the results were sensational.

For all his flaws, he's no Tomas O'Leary; O'Leary is a technically poor passer, and was always going to be hampered by that no matter what other qualities he had. Murray is strong technically, his pass is a nice, wristy action and moves quickly. His problems are fixable.

RobbieRuns

I always think that T O'Leary was a great loss to Irish rugby. I know that he is injured at the moment and he did go through a bit of a confidence loss for a while, but I always felt that he was critised way too harshly by most people. His passing was never as bad as people made out. I hope that when he does come back from his injury next season that he regains his top form. He has every attribute to be a top SH still, he will not get a shot of course due to were he is playing, but he is still not too old.

CIARAN_BOYLE

RobbieRuns wrote: »

I always think that T O'Leary was a great loss to Irish rugby. I know that he is injured at the moment and he did go through a bit of a confidence loss for a while, but I always felt that he was critised way too harshly by most people. His passing was never as bad as people made out. I hope that when he does come back from his injury next season that he regains his top form. He has every attribute to be a top SH still, he will not get a shot of course due to were he is playing, but he is still not too old.

He was criticised when he playing international rugby when in terrible form. He was decent last season when backing up Murray in Munster and he looked to have found a level. He wasn't a bad player he was just playing badly (or injured sometimes) at international level. It was more criticism of Kidney than TOL imo.

I reckon that we will see him back in Ireland if only to claim a tax break on retirement. He has a lot of time in rugby (some of that as a central contracted player) and will probably have a lot of tax to claim back so will want to be in Ireland again.

Maybe Leinster will pick him up when Redden or Boss goes or Munster bring him back as a back up to Murray.

smurphy29

O'Leary has all the qualities to be a good scrum half... except good passing, which is the most important one. He could get away with his limitations in 2009 when there was little in the way of quick ball and it didn't matter how slowly you passed to the 10, who was only going to kick it anyway, but the game has changed since then and his limitations have been cruelly exposed.

He was not helped by the national team coaches trying to somehow ply him into form in test rugby when he had no confidence and was struggling badly.

The idea that Leinster would sign him is completely daft by the way. There i no way they'd consider a scrum half with such poor distribution. Their game is all about tempo.

j8wk2feszrnpao

Fishooks13 wrote: »

I'd say that this hasn't been a problem at all this season. Struggling to think of a game bar the Fiji one where he was too slow

Don't think it's an issue for Murray.
If it's not clean ball there's not much any SH can do.
Plus, at times last year for both Munster and Ireland, there seemed to be a tactic to slow it down at the ruck. That's down to the coach, not the SH.