The future at scrumhalf

CIARAN_BOYLE

I was looking at our options at scrumhalf and I realised that we have 2 players under 31 playing in Ireland with 20 starts in the Rabo, ERC or Aviva premiership. Of those Paul Marshall is 27 has never been first choice at his province and Conor Murray is already an established international.

It isn't likely that any of the over 30s will still be playing come the next world cup. Over the next year or two we need to push some of the less experienced players through.

From their length of contract it is apparent that neither Redden or Boss will be moving on from Leinster soon however despite their contracts it is essential that Leinster begin to introduce Cooney and McGrath through.

Munster must also look beyond the aged veteran Peter Stringer when it comes to backing up Conor Murray. The next generation needs experience and an opportunity to prove that they can cover the position going forward.

By the way are there any Irish scrumhalves that I don't know about that are plying their trade abroad,

Over 30s
Eoin Redden 31 (2 year contract)
Isaac Boss 32 (2 year contract)
Peter Stringer 34 (1 year contract)
Frank Murphy 31 (1 year contract)

Under 30s
Conor Murray 23 (9 Ireland starts & 21 Munster starts)
Paul Marshall 27 (38 Ulster starts)
Paul O' Donohoe 24 (9 Connacht starts 8 Leinster starts)
Duncan Williams 26 (8 Munster starts)
Dave Moore 24 (1 Connacht start, 3 Harlequins starts)
John Cooney 22 (1 Leinster start)
Blane McIlroy (2 Ulster sub appearances)
Luke McGrath 19 No Leinster caps
Cathal Sheridan 23 No Munster caps
Brian Haugh 19 No Munster caps
Kieron Marmion 20 No Connacht caps
Michael Heaney 21 No Ulster caps, formerly of Doncaster Knights

exiles
Ian Porter 24
Tomas O'Leary 28

NIQ
Ruan Pienaar 2 year contract

Fishooks12

The future is very bright as far as I can see. The next year or two might see us a bit light but we should have some quality nines in Murray, Marmion and McGrath coming through (I realise Murray has already done this, but not in the proper terms)

CIARAN_BOYLE

Fishooks12 wrote: »

The future is very bright as far as I can see. The next year or two might see us a bit light but we should have some quality nines in Murray, Marmion and McGrath coming through (I realise Murray has already done this, but not in the proper terms)

McGrath has to get passed Boss and Redden both on new two year contracts. Sure there is potential but who knows if it will be realised.

Fishooks12

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

McGrath has to get passed Boss and Redden both on new two year contracts. Sure there is potential but who knows if it will be realised.

And Cooney, who I forgot to mention

profitius

Theres not great quality coming through but there is talent there. Marmion looked good for the U20s and we've yet to see the best of Murray.

Hagz

What's there to worry about...? Haven't you all heard about the Messiah?

Podge_irl

Cooney looked terrible at the start of the year, but was impressive in his cameo in the HEC final. Madigan showed huge improvement from season before last to the last one so I'm hopeful Cooney can do something similar. Marmion was good in the U20 and entirely deserved to keep McGrath on the bench. Likely to see some game time with the poor scrum half options at Connacht too which will really help.

freyners

i fully expect for marmion to see some game time this year if murphy and pod keep up last years form

mogwai81

I think Luke Mcgrath is still a couple of season's away from breaking
the Redan/Boss strangle hold at Leinster. The return of Stringer and exit
of O'Leary can only be good for Conor Murray. Hopefully he will learn from
Stringer and return to the snappy passing of his early performances.
Kieron Marmion should see some game time due to the lack of quality 9's at
Connacht and his performances at the U20 JWC.
Over all i think the future looks bright regarding Irish scrumhalves.

Mr.Applepie

mogwai81 wrote: »

The return of Stringer and exit
of O'Leary can only be good for Conor Murray. Hopefully he will learn from
Stringer and return to the snappy passing of his early performances.

Why, was Murray being coached by TOL last year? Will he be coached by Stringer this year? His passing is fast enough, it's his decision making that needs to improve

.ak

For me the future for Ireland is Marmion and Cooney, with the latter having advantage if he stays at Leinster and learns his trade there. I like McGrath, he's an exciting scrumhalf, but I think Cooney - when on form - is the more solid option. Marmion is the most likely to get game time with a senior squad tho... I'm not a fan of POD and Frank Murphy blows hot n cold.

mogwai81

Mr.Applepie wrote: »

Why, was Murray being coached by TOL last year? Will he be coached by Stringer this year? His passing is fast enough, it's his decision making that needs to improve

No, but you learn from those around you. Murray seemed to be taking a leaf out of O'leary's book by stalling
a the base of the ruck.

I'm just praying that we some day have someone who is fit to pass a ball like this guy used to.



Scrum half's list of necessary attributes
1 - Ability to provide quick, consistent and accurate service to the correct first receiver
2 - see #1
3 - see #1
4 - see #1
...

We don't actually have anyone near the level that Stringer used to be. Albeit because we got caught in the idea of 10man rugby for too long, and we're struggling as a nation to let it go and look beyond "moments of inspiration" from the players outside the out half.

A scrum half should be like a metronome, directing the play left and right from each breakdown, stretching defences by putting the ball outside of the 10m channels with pace and accuracy, and even a thoroughly predictable scrum half that can do this consistently will afford a decent attacking side opportunity to score.

[Jackass]

I agree that Stringer has been our best scrummie of the modern age. His form let him down a bit, but none of Reddan, Boss, Murray or O'Leary have provided as good a service since. Reddan is a distant second ahead of the pack though imo, probably with a stronger all round game than Stringer also. But you're right, a scrum-half has a very specific role to play, and first and foremost, if he can't be at every breakdown quickly, not be lying at the bottom of the ruck, dig the ball out on arrival and have the ball swung accurately into he first receivers bread basket in one quick, clean movement, then he's not worth his salt.

I can't comment on most of the younger fellas through lack of seeing them, other than Marmion should be a starter at Connacht, not only because he is already very capable, but also because the potential for development is massive, and of the Leinster pair, I think Cooney is a massively solid option and McGrath is a very rough diamond, I think those two lads are capable of being the Leinster 1 and 2 at scrum-half for the next decade, but I'd say McGrath is at least 2 seasons away from being ready and Cooney is ready for PRO12 covering action and a few starts a season, but I hate to build up McGrath so much, similar to how Willis and O'Donohue were, who never broke through in the end. If McGrath's game can be cleaned up a bit though, he has the x-factor of genius about him that can't be taught, he needs better basics though. Very young and extremely promising as it stands though, one of the players I've been most excited about for quite a while.....but then I was extremely excited about Macken and Conway also, who have had injuries and to an extent lack of living up to hype so far...so that's why I hate hype.

totallegend

Deleted User wrote: »

Scrum half's list of necessary attributes
1 - Ability to provide quick, consistent and accurate service to the correct first receiver
2 - see #1
3 - see #1
4 - see #1
...

You're right on #1 but in an ideal world, your SH would be able to do a lot more than that.

That's why Stringer was an excellent scrum-half but never scaled the heights of a Rob Howley or George Gregan; was he as good or better a passer? Absolutely. Was he as good a scrum-half? Not remotely.

Still, it's no coincidence that the zip has disappeared from our back play in recent years as DK has favoured the 'auxiliary back-row' style of scrum-half and the overall team performance has suffered because of it.

In terms of the future; I think too much is being made of Cooney's cameo in the HC final, Ulster were dead on their feet, but he's still a useful-looking player. I like Marmion, he can threaten with ball in hand without losing sight of his main function.

TBH, I don't rate Murray based on what I saw last season but hopefully with a more attack-minded coach at Munster and a better backline to pass to, he'll show us a bit more in terms of zippy service.

jm08

Stringer had more than just a pass - his management of the pack was just terrific as well - he did all their thinking for them and there was no slacking on his watch!

.ak

totallegend wrote: »

In terms of the future; I think too much is being made of Cooney's cameo in the HC final, Ulster were dead on their feet, but he's still a useful-looking player.

My thoughts on Cooney are based on his performances for the A team, Lansdowne, and the few senior games he got last season, not so much the HC final.

The game against Pontypridd was probably one of the best SH performances I've seen in a while, and in my opinion his absence from the B&I semi final was one of the main contributing factors of why they lost.

He's definitely ahead of McGrath in my opinion anyhow.

armchaircoach

I like cooney and think he is very much in line too take over at leinster when redden and boss retire. He had a stinker our a first game, but improved consistently throughout the season culminating inn an appearance in the hc final.

So far I've heard more hype about mcgrath then I've seen anything to back up (don't jump down my throat here as I watch under 20 and go to all home A games) he's a good player, but outs a bit much to talk of him as the starting 9 for Ireland (not every scrummie has a sugar daddy as international coach)

As for Murray, he had all the athletic ability and attributes to be a fine player, but he is missing that instinctive reading of the pace and flow of an attack that is needed inn a top scrumhalf. When he gets to a ruck he has to stop and look around to get his bearings on what is happening, and this grinds flowing attacks to a halt. I'm not sure if this is something that can be coached, our just something your born with that makes you a great player rather than a good player.

phog

armchaircoach wrote: »

...........(not every scrummie has a sugar daddy as international coach)

...............

Thankfully, the silly season is almost over, live rugby starting back this week-end

shuffol

I like Marmion as a player but as of yet I think his passing is well below the required standard for the pro 12 or HEC.

Morf

totallegend wrote: »

You're right on #1 but in an ideal world, your SH would be able to do a lot more than that.

That's why Stringer was an excellent scrum-half but never scaled the heights of a Rob Howley or George Gregan; was he as good or better a passer? Absolutely. Was he as good a scrum-half? Not remotely.

Aaron Smith is the first NZ #9 with a particularly good pass in quite a while. Didn't hurt them too much . . .

.ak

It helps when the other 14 are world class....

Morf

.ak wrote: »

It helps when the other 14 are world class....

Having a certain DC outside you does help.

[Jackass]

In fairness though, a 10's ability to run a game is massively dependent on the service he gets from his 9 and the pace or lack of that suits the type of game that 10 plays...a running and play making 10 needs quick snappy ball after a few phases of breaking up the oppisition defence structure. An arm chair 10 needs time and opportunities to find the space and boot the ball for terriotory or send crash balls up the middle. Two extremely different styles and as seen with our national team, completely incompatible when the contrasting styles meet.

danthefan

Morf wrote: »

Having a certain DC outside you does help.

And a backrow/pack that serves you quick ball on a plate.

Leinsterr

Mcgrath needs sufficient game time with johnny and Madigan if he wants to be a quality scrum half for 2015 and more realistically 2019. He's only 19 now so he will be 22 for the next RWC and 26 for the RWC in 2019 so he has a lot of time to develop. Personally, I would give Mcgrath 2/3 starts for Leinster this season in the Rabo (mainly games that aren't too important but when he has players like johnny and Drico around him) and 5-8 cameos off the bench in similar matches. This seems unlikely as I feel Joe will pick Cooney over Mcgrath for some reason. Mcgrath shouldn't look towards 2015 unless he dramatically breaks into the Irish team with quality performances and injury to other players. Reddan should continue to start for Ireland (even though Murray somehow is picked ahead of him) until 2015 and then begin to introduce the likes of Mcgrath and Marmion. There's no point throwing him in too deep where he will drown like what is happening to Murray at the moment

Podge_irl

Joe will pick Cooney over McGrath because he has a couple more seasons conditioning and is more fit for the pro game. He has been involved with the Leinster senior squad. He has a less ropey pass and while less "mercurial" he is also far less unpredictable and a safer bet.

backawaygo onahead

jm08 wrote: »

Stringer had more than just a pass - his management of the pack was just terrific as well - he did all their thinking for them and there was no slacking on his watch!

Absolutely, he was also a brave defender in addition to his trademark tap tackles.

Peter was the appropriate 9 for his younger day when our strength was outside of the 10 with D'Arcy & BOD in their prime & that quick long pass to let ROG play his game.

Sadly now almost all of that is past tense.

9 just as much as prop looks a pretty bleak area for the next few years. Lets hope Murray comes good.

totallegend

backawaygo onahead wrote: »

Absolutely, he was also a brave defender in addition to his trademark tap tackles.

Peter was the appropriate 9 for his younger day when our strength was outside of the 10 with D'Arcy & BOD in their prime & that quick long pass to let ROG play his game.

Sadly now almost all of that is past tense.

9 just as much as prop looks a pretty bleak area for the next few years. Lets hope Murray comes good.

The problem at prop is a lack of personnel, whereas the problem at 9 is selection by the national coach and the tactics he employs. I think a change of coach will see Murray get a new lease of life, maybe the persecution of Reddan will end and that will sort us out for a couple of years. I'd be optimistic that at least one of Marmion, McGrath or Cooney will make the grade.

stephen_n

Why is Marshal so much out of peoples reckoning?

totallegend

stephen_n wrote: »

Why is Marshal so much out of peoples reckoning?

1) He's 27 and never really established himself in Ulster
2) He won't get any top-level game time while Pienaar is in situ
3) The Ulster fans on here, who should be the ones pushing his credentials, don't seem to rate him.

He's a very exciting player but there are doubts over his abilities to do the fundamentals consistently well. I'd love to see him get more time for Ulster because I think he can add a real spark to a game, but as it is, he's just too unproven to be thrown into the national squad.