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Gender issues in After Hours - Your feedback requested.
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I would think that's there to point out that there is a difference between being blatantly sexist which is against the rules and holding a point of view that some may feel to be sexist. As Wibbs said there needs to be room for discussion on certain things. Lawliet linked a post on the thread about the girl who passed out at the party as an example of a problem but if you follow the discussion that followed from it you can get a better picture of what was meant.
Could you link some examples of what you feel to be the really malevolent towards women posts?
I did on the last page.
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I definitely don't Millicent.
Thank you.
Yeah I'd be the same myself probably. I tend to find it a little childish. But AH is a little childish a lot of the time by it's nature. But that's why I gave examples in my post there. Like people have been saying, it's about trying to find an acceptable line in these things, I just think that "phwoarr!!!" posts in and of themselves shouldn't be beyond that line. It's a human thing to express an appreciation of physical attractiveness, has nothing to do with sexism imo, and rarely if ever has any sexist or malevolent intent.
So I think the nature of the posts is what should matter. If they are being used to dismiss other posters opinion or to personally abuse some public figure, then I'd be glad to have seen the end of them. But if it's just people "phwoaring", childish as it may sometimes be, then I think that's just all part and parcel of a lighthearted general topic forum and it would be ridiculously stuffy and silly to try and enforce a ban on it.
That's it exactly. I don't mind in messing threads -- I love some of the most smart-arse threads in AH. It's knowing, observing and responding to the tone of the thread. If people can't seem to do that, they're not useful as posters and don't need to be coddled.
Tbh, the worse ones are like the ones I posted on the previous page. The ones that come out of leftfield that have nothing to do with the topic always leave me a bit angry. Those and the "some women"/"some Irish women" ones (cos they've gotten too smart to make it sound like they're referring to all) are the infuriating ones.
Ooh, also the victim blaming ones on rape threads. Sorry, I'm on a roll here!0 -
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Why would I not concern myself with people who are lessening my enjoyment of a forum I do my utmost to interact positively with? Why should I turn a blind eye to their bad behaviour when I regulate my own?
I never said don't concern yourself with people lessening your enjoyment of the AH
You posted:I think doing things behind closed doors just leads some to believe that the mods are complicit in that sort of posting
I quoted the above comment and directly after it posted:CodyJarrett wrote: »Well, don't concern yourself with those people
Quite clearly, I am saying don't concern yourself with the *some* you are referencing.I'm not sure what your second paragraph refers to here. I am going on info given to me by an AH mod that this is how certain troublesome posters are dealt with.
It referred to your remark about that *some* that believe mods are complicit with users posting sexist remarks, which is why I went into detail about why it would be hard for a mod to be complicit with anyone.Additionally, the mods don't need to be complicit. They just need to be *seen* as complicit. The silence around those bannings serves to, IMO, create a perception of complicity, even though it is not the case.
I understand that mods don't have to be a certain way to be seen as a certain way but it's no harm pointing out to those people who believe such things, just exactly why it is almost impossible for mods to actually be complicit with banned users.You hope I set them straight on how the mods feel?
You said that some users "believe" that the mods are complicit with banned users, right? But you said that you yourself DON'T believe that to be the case, right? And so, I said: "Great, well I hope you set them straight". Simple.I don't accept that. These were talking into the wee hours, getting pissed together, sleep over at my house cos it's late type of male friends. None of them particularly new-agey or anything but they had inherent respect for women. Just because someone is on the internet does not give them carte blanche to forget their social manners.
Nothing that I said in my post would lead someone to even remotely believe that I am believe because people are online, that they should have "carte blanche" to forget their social manners. I mean, seriously.
My point was and still is: that you can't expect men (or women) when posting in After Hours to come across as balanced as they do in real life. It doesn't matter that you were drinking with those guys and sleeping over with 'em. If anything, that would just reinforce my point, as you were seeing all sides and facets to them and not just one or two sides, like you would on a forum like After Hours.
I'll try and make my point in a different way, using myself as an example:
Quite often when I read or post in After Hours, the frame of mind that I am in will be one of not wanting to be all that serious. I will usually want to maybe read something that doesn't require much thinking and hopefully have a laugh there at the same time (I doubt I am alone in that). So, lets say if a thread is started and (for example) Miriam O'Callaghan is the topic of the OP, then chances are, that the first thing I am going to think of when I see her name in the thread title: are her boobs (apologies, I am sorry but I'm being honest here).
Not only do I think that would happen, I know it would in fact, as it did. A user started a thread announcing that, after some deep thought, Miriam had decided not to leave Ireland and pledged her commitment to the RTE current affairs Prime Time for a number of years instead and I replied:CodyJarrett wrote: »Thank Christ for that.
I was worried that what with the size of her breasts and all, her sudden departure could mess with Ireland's gravitational pull.
Now, I realise that the above is quite immature (especially for a man of my age) and could be deemed as sexist (I don't think that it is though) but do I think it's appropriate for After Hours? You're darn tootin I do. I concede that certain users would rather I did not comment on Miriam's body (maybe mods included?) just because she happens to be the subject of an After Hour's thread, I honestly get that. However, I feel such people are wrong.
Why? Well, because After Hours is supposed to be a forum where there is a place for such humour, or at least it used to be. I'll challenge anyone that feels dead baby jokes and "gags" belong there but humour that is somewhat risque and adult in nature has always fitted AH like a glove and so I think bringing in rules and or changes that would make my joke (and others like it) inappropriate, would kill the forum dead and I for one hope it never comes to that.0 -
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Ok, so my feedback is probably on AH as a whole rather than solely about gender issues. Hope that's alright, and I apologise in advance for my post, I'm not now, nor shall I ever be, an eloquent poster or even one that's good at getting my point across
I've read this thread a few times, before reading it I would genuinely have said, nope, there aren't any problems with AH. Now, there were plenty of things I didn't like, but I felt they were my own problem and so I dealt with those myself, either by reporting posts, or by keeping out of threads I didn't like. But now that I've read the issues raised by others, I see it wasn't exactly right of me to think that everything is hunky dory.
I love After Hours, I post very regularly, however I mostly only post in the "fun" threads and this thread has made me ask myself, why? The reason really, is because I know if I fail to conform the AH standard, I may end up in an argument with another poster, and it's usually an argument that I'm never going to win. Now I want to be very explicit about the fact that I have never been attacked because of my gender (which is blatantly obvious!!!) But I have, many a time, gotten the "lighten up, this is AH." The fact is though, that I'm usually a very light hearted person, I don't take offence easily, and agree completely that there are definitley times when "this is AH" is perfectly acceptable. I take jokes as jokes for the most part, but when those jokes become about rape or dead babies, then they're just not funny any more. But I'm going to have to stick up for the majority of AH posters and say that for every one asshole, there are ten decent people who are willing fight them down, unfortunately those ten people may not always be around in that one thread and so it will escalate, and it's those threads that then reflect badly on the forum. This Male rape thread . is just one example. Some people thought it was ok to joke, most though, didn’t. There was even some vitcim blaming, and the wrong kind of "this is AH" is shown clearly here.The remit of the tGC and tLL is to host discussion for each gender.
AH is a general forum and neither gender should be made feel unwelcome there.
Sorry Sharrow, I just need to comment on this, neither gender should be made feel unwelcome in any forum on Boards.
"Don't like it? Don't read it!" - stupid soundbite.
Yeh, and that's the point of the feedback thread. It should be a case of, well if that many people don't like it, there’s something not right. Let's fix it.
dr.bollocko wrote: »From my POV the "All Irish women are crap all foridn women are great" threads are on the GTFO list.
Yes. Ugh……as Eve_Dublin said.....
Eve_Dublin wrote: »They're filled with malice and always turn nasty.
This is where my feeling on the whole issue lies really, Malice.
I have no problem with the "what was she doing out of the kitchen" jokes. I find them quite funny on a rare occasion, and I have probably made similar ones myself. When they start appearing in every thread, or once things turn malevolent, that's when I have a problem. But this applies to a lot of things in After Hours, not just matters of sexism.
So anyway, I'm waffling, for me, the issues which I feel are present in AH are;
The term “rape” being thrown around. However, this is usually (I would say always but I can’t know for sure), met with a ban.
The “Irish women are all princesses, they’re all fat and ugly, they’re all gold diggers”, I don’t personally find them offensive because I generally don’t find ignorant gobshytes offensive. They sometimes take a little bit longer to get closed, and they turn nasty. It’s often very unclear if any action has been taken against the posters or if the thread has simply been locked.
Flirting. There’s one liners and then it’s dropped and that’s fine. But when it’s continual it makes for uncomfortable reading. This is being stamped out, but it still happens.
The biggest problem of all, IMO, is general nastiness right across the forum, and this applies to both sexes. If you don’t conform to the AH standard then you can GTFO.
I agree with a lot of other posters who have said it’s mostly general dickish behaviour, some sexism will fall into that behaviour, some xenophobia, some homophobia, some racism, but mostly, these idiots don’t care if you’re male or female, if they wanted to dislike you for you opinion they would find a reason regardless, and being female is just their excuse. Nastiness, whatever it’s motive, needs to be eradicated, it’s the mods’ main job; closing threads, moving threads, keeping threads on topic etc is there too of course, but they are really there for when the posters are unable to remain civil (that's obviously my view on things as a mod of a different forum, AH mods may feel very differently).
I agree with a lot of things in this thread, and I disagree with a lot of others. I think it's great that the mods/cmods/admins have seen that there is a problem that needs to be resolved. I think though, us as posters have to take a lot of the responsibility too, report more posts, stand up against these posters who are ruining your experience of the forum, mods cannot possibly read every post in After Hours. It's impossible. I've seen so many times people saying "why haven't the mods closed this thread" and yet they haven't reported it!!
I know I've said a lot without really touching on the gender issue, but I honestly feel it's best I leave that to the people who have been affected by it first hand, as I'm not going to do their argument any justice. I definitely agree more now, than I would have before, that there are problems there. If it's stopping women from posting in AH then it needs to be addressed. I would however agree that is needs to be fair on both sexes.
Bottom line; Report posts, come down harder on people being sexist/racist/bigoted/knobbish. Make their punishments more transparent, both for those who think their reported posts are going un-actioned, and for other posters who may think that kind of carry on is acceptable.
So, that's my stance on it. Load of bollox probably but sure, take it as you will. 0 -
Deleted User wrote: »I'm not now, nor shall I ever be, an eloquent poster or even one that's good at getting my point across
.. anyway, I'm waffling ..
Agreed with pretty much everything you said whoopsadaisydoodles, apart from the above that is.
Great post.0 -
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Cody, sorry it's taken so long to write you back. One of those days and I didn't want to give you a rushed answer.CodyJarrett wrote: »I never said don't concern yourself with people lessening your enjoyment of the AH
[snipped quotes]
Quite clearly, I am saying don't concern yourself with the *some* you are referencing.
But they are my concern when they are acting in a way that directly curbs my enjoyment of the forum. Those who think they will get away with it, even if they are banned a short while/long while later, create an atmosphere, such as that which I highlighted in a previous post.CodyJarrett wrote: »I understand that mods don't have to be a certain way to be seen as a certain way but it's no harm pointing out to those people who believe such things, just exactly why it is almost impossible for mods to actually be complicit with banned users.
You said that some users "believe" that the mods are complicit with banned users, right? But you said that you yourself DON'T believe that to be the case, right? And so, I said: "Great, well I hope you set them straight". Simple.
I wouldn't have thought that my place, tbh. I am not a mod so I do not try to speak for mods (in this feedback thread, I am just quoting a mod). It is the mods' place to put those posters straight, not mine. I report when I see an offensive post but that's where my place in it ends. I am not a mod.CodyJarrett wrote: »Nothing that I said in my post would lead someone to even remotely believe that I am believe because people are online, that they should have "carte blanche" to forget their social manners. I mean, seriously.
My point was and still is: that you can't expect men (or women) when posting in After Hours to come across as balanced as they do in real life. It doesn't matter that you were drinking with those guys and sleeping over with 'em. If anything, that would just reinforce my point, as you were seeing all sides and facets to them and not just one or two sides, like you would on a forum like After Hours.
Why not? If you wouldn't say something in public without expected a slap in the head for it/someone flipping out at you, why say it on the internet? There is a nastiness that the internet seems to bring out in some people. I see no reason to foster it.CodyJarrett wrote: »I'll try and make my point in a different way, using myself as an example:
Quite often when I read or post in After Hours, the frame of mind that I am in will be one of not wanting to be all that serious. I will usually want to maybe read something that doesn't require much thinking and hopefully have a laugh there at the same time (I doubt I am alone in that). So, lets say if a thread is started and (for example) Miriam O'Callaghan is the topic of the OP, then chances are, that the first thing I am going to think of when I see her name in the thread title: are her boobs (apologies, I am sorry but I'm being honest here).
Not only do I think that would happen, I know it would in fact, as it did. A user started a thread announcing that, after some deep thought, Miriam had decided not to leave Ireland and pledged her commitment to the RTE current affairs Prime Time for a number of years instead and I replied:
Now, I realise that the above is quite immature (especially for a man of my age) and could be deemed as sexist (I don't think that it is though) but do I think it's appropriate for After Hours? You're darn tootin I do. I concede that certain users would rather I did not comment on Miriam's body (maybe mods included?) just because she happens to be the subject of an After Hour's thread, I honestly get that. However, I feel such people are wrong.
Why? Well, because After Hours is supposed to be a forum where there is a place for such humour, or at least it used to be. I'll challenge anyone that feels dead baby jokes and "gags" belong there but humour that is somewhat risque and adult in nature has always fitted AH like a glove and so I think bringing in rules and or changes that would make my joke (and others like it) inappropriate, would kill the forum dead and I for one hope it never comes to that.
So you see nothing wrong with the first page of a thread being devoted to Miriam's baps and do-ability? Do you seriously not? If a Pat Kenny thread started and a load of women rushed in to say "I'd ride him", "he'd get it", etc. etc. completely throwing the thread off topic, it wouldn't bother you?
If no, how about if almost every thread that featured a man started to follow the same path, with a pissing contest going for who can be the most hilarious in reducing that person to an object of desirability, lacking in any ability to see that person as a person, that wouldn't peeve you? Imagine that's a thread about your mam or sister or girlfriend or wife. Would you feel the same?
There is humour and then there is the complete inability to seemingly take women seriously sometimes. Not all the time, don't get me wrong, but enough times that there is a pattern to it.0 -
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In the olden days (like 20 years ago
) young fellas would gather behind the bicycle sheds to smoke and tell dirty jokes and generally show off and try and make sense of their sexuality. Everyone knew it happened, many most men (and a lot of women) had engaged in it and grown out of it, but it didn't affect anyone other than the young fellas because they were the only ones hearing it.
It still happens - young fellas drinking cans in the park - but in addition these same people share their jokes and opinions on the internet, where everyone gets to see it. Sometimes this is in the comment sections of You Tube or sites where anything goes, sometimes it is on Boards and creates aggravation.
My own sense is not that I am particularly offended by the remarks made, but at a deeper level I am disturbed at the idea that there are such ignorant, bigoted, unthinking people out there, sharing my world. If I could tell that the remarks were being made by teenagers I would be less concerned because it is a phase they will - hopefully - grow out of. But on the internet you can't always tell, and so all you see is that there are people out there with disturbingly immature outlooks.
So, does Boards introduce another forum called 'behind the bicycle sheds' or 'in the park with a can' where people can entertain themselves being humourously sexist, racist, whatever they fancy, where no-one is allowed to crib about it (just as you cannot comment on posters' spelling and grammar) and only the most outrageous stuff gets cut. The fact that most of these posters describe these contributions as jokes just proves they really do not 'get it', and are not likely to. And it takes all sorts.
AH could then continue being used for light-hearted discussion that stays within generally acceptable bounds, and is moderated to that effect.0 -
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In the olden days (like 20 years ago) young fellas would gather behind the bicycle sheds to smoke and tell dirty jokes and generally show off and try and make sense of their sexuality. Everyone knew it happened, many most men (and a lot of women) had engaged in it and grown out of it, but it didn't affect anyone other than the young fellas because they were the only ones hearing it.
It still happens - young fellas drinking cans in the park - but in addition these same people share their jokes and opinions on the internet, where everyone gets to see it. Sometimes this is in the comment sections of You Tube or sites where anything goes, sometimes it is on Boards and creates aggravation.
My own sense is not that I am particularly offended by the remarks made, but at a deeper level I am disturbed at the idea that there are such ignorant, bigoted, unthinking people out there, sharing my world. If I could tell that the remarks were being made by teenagers I would be less concerned because it is a phase they will - hopefully - grow out of. But on the internet you can't always tell, and so all you see is that there are people out there with disturbingly immature outlooks.
So, does Boards introduce another forum called 'behind the bicycle sheds' or 'in the park with a can' where people can entertain themselves being humourously sexist, racist, whatever they fancy, where no-one is allowed to crib about it (just as you cannot comment on posters' spelling and grammar) and only the most outrageous stuff gets cut. The fact that most of these posters describe these contributions as jokes just proves they really do not 'get it', and are not likely to. And it takes all sorts.
AH could then continue being used for light-hearted discussion that stays within generally acceptable bounds, and is moderated to that effect.
There's already a private forum for that.Millicent, you can't police this stuff. There will always be people like that because... there always will. Seems like an obvious thing to say, I know, but it's true.
That doesn't mean they have to be tolerated here.0
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This discussion has been closed.
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