Gender issues in After Hours - Your feedback requested.

Eve_Dublin

Just a question: how many posters know this thread is here? Seems to be the same heads that always knock around Feedback (which is fine, of course!). Would be nice to get the opinion of people we don't normally hear from. Could there be a link in AH or something?

mackg

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

Just a question: how many posters know this thread is here? Seems to be the same heads that always knock around Feedback (which is fine, of course!). Would be nice to get the opinion of people we don't normally hear from. Could there be a link in AH or something?

+1

CodyJarrett

CodyJarrett wrote: »

+1 from me also.

Perhaps a bump on this thread by M.D. would an idea?

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056550121

There is a sticky in AH referring to the thread since earlier tonight.

Jimoslimos

Millicent wrote: »

I don't mind a "phwoarr!!!" post. I do it myself. I could rattle off a list of people I could ate without sauce right now. What I don't do, however, is bring it up in any thread that happens to have a mention of an attractive person in it. Or an unattractive person. If it's appropriate at the time (such as the weird celebrity crush thread recently), I do it. Otherwise, what's the point?

I see what you're saying here, however I don't think blanket bans on 'phwoarr' posts in unrelated threads is the answer. Action maybe taken if it threatens to derail the thread.

Take for example the London 2012 megathread, I made a comment along the lines of how beautiful Jess Ennis was and that she had sexy abs. Objectifying? Perhaps, I did in my defence also post on how well she ran her 100m hurdles and commented on the pressure she was under to perform. I don't think there's anything overly sexist in commenting favourably on people's attractiveness. Women (& men) do appreciate compliments! Some posters go a little overboard, but if we were to ban everything that people occasionally cross the line on we'd have nothing to discuss.

What I don't like to see are comments along the lines of,

Yeah, but she has no tits

That in my mind crosses the line, even in threads dedicated to attractiveness. The poster probably wasn't trying to say she was ugly, but it was a comment that could have been phrased better as "I prefer fuller figured/large chested women" or better still, nothing at all, without causing unintended offence.

Elmidena

Tbh I think it should be treated like anything else in AH, if it's just harmless tongue-in-cheek let it slide, and if it's flamebait get the cards out. If you're not sure of where it fits on that scale, report it or pm the relevant mods and let them decide at their own discretion. No need to act as a nanny to the majority of well-behaved users that have enough copon to know the feel of the forum.

FanadMan

I don't think that there is a sexism prob in AH but do remember seeing some people complaining about the use of terms like slut and so on. I know that some people do find words like this offensive but if they don't like them, then they should either report the post or stop reading AH.

To me, AH is like being in a big pub - can be great craic with some really funny people but there are complete tools in there too. And sometimes, those tools try to talk to you. If that happens in a real pub I'd tell them to go away (or words to that effect) or just ignore them. So it should be too, in AH.

In the end, it's just some people whose noses are out of joint at some of the words used - same as you cant swear properly in AH, but these people want to completly censor AH and eventually the whole of boards.

Just my tuppence worth but really don't think that there should be anywhere near as much censorship here. If you don't like what's said, don't read it.....and please don't try to push your narrow minded views on me cos I'll probably tell you to go away (or words to that effect)

There is a time for political correctness and there is a time for having a bit of cop on - if you aren't sure which, please don't visit AH and spoil it for the rest of us. But if you do visit and someone is being a real tool, just hit the report button.

Scioch

I personally havent noticed any problem. To me this all stems from that "is my flat mate a slut" thread and the use of those words. Which isnt a gender thing its a language thing.

If a poster is being uncivil, personal or insulting then it will be dealt with anyway. But from that last discussion I got the feeling that that wanst enough and that people felt victimised because others of the use of those words in relation to other people. I made the point in that thread that males make up the majority of AH posters in relation to a point about there being more stuff aimed at women than at men (which seemed to be a big part of the problem).

Since shown to be true with the recent poll my point there stands, men talk about women, its what men do, in a forum full of men your going to get a lot of talk about women. Not all of it will be pleasant (I'm taking about the odd poster who goes too far), but not all discussion about anything is pleasant. There is no actual problem in relation to sexism, certainly none that I have noticed. There are just more mens views than womens views.

g'em

Two posts from CodyJarrett deleted and poster banned from Feedback for six months. To cry for equality but ignore very clear, distinct warnings on thread is just rude.

crazy cabbage

I dont see a problem 99% of the time. It is mostly just people fishing for likes and trying to be funny that sexism comes up which in my experience is always the first cuple of pages of a tread. after that series posts tend begin happining.

I dont think there is any 'bad intent' behind it in my opinion most of the time.

Obviously if someone does cross the line then something should be done but it needs to be done on a case by case bases.

WindSock

Jaysus, I've never seen anyone so preoccupied with the gender of individual posters and mods before. Well, there was another poster before but has since closed their account...

Gummy Panda

Can someone give me cliffs?

I only found out about this thread last night when a sticky appeared in AH and I'm finding it hard to follow as there seems to be some bickering going on. What has been agreed so far?

Morag

That there is an issue with sexism in AH, that the bulk of it is aimed at women but men to get attacked/put down as well. That it won't be tolerated, if posts are reported they will be dealt with but where to drawn the line between what is consider 'banter' and what is unacceptable is being discussed.

4zn76tysfajdxp

Gummy Panda wrote: »

Can someone give me cliffs?

I only found out about this thread last night when a sticky appeared in AH and I'm finding it hard to follow as there seems to be some bickering going on. What has been agreed so far?

By the posts I've read in here, it's either

A. Sexism is bad and commonplace but it's especially worse for women. The mods want to make sure that everyone knows they're genuinely concerned and don't want an anti-woman culture to develop in AH. I do believe that the common consensus now is to report any sexist posts instead of getting dragged into a flame war.

or

B. The mods, cmods and admins hate men and are having their minds controlled by a shadowy clique of anonymous man-haters who don't even post in AH and want to destroy its sensibilities. Sexism towards men is commonplace and tolerated in there and there's no such thing as sexism towards women, that's just a bit of craic and saying anything otherwise will kill After Hours forevserzzzz.

Scioch

Will the sexism from the female side be dealt with as harshly as that coming from the male side ? If the problem is that it is unbalanced (because the amount of male/female in AH is unbalanced) then to enforce it regards men it would make it virtually impossible for women to say anything remotely sexist.

Unless the enforcing isnt going to be balanced which would be sexism in itself wouldnt it ? Or your still gonna distinguish between banter and out and out sexism which means doing nothing thats not already been done.

Gummy Panda

Noah Incalculable Barometer wrote: »

By the posts I've read in here, it's either

A. Sexism is bad and commonplace but it's especially worse for women. The mods want to make sure that everyone knows they don't want an anti-woman culture to develop in AH. I do believe that the common consensus now is to report any sexist posts instead of getting dragged into a flame war.

or

B. The mods, cmods and admins hate men and are having their minds controlled by a shadowy clique of anonymous man-haters who don't even post in AH and want to destroy its sensibilities. Sexism towards men is commonplace and tolerated in there and there's no such thing as sexism towards women, that's just a bit of craic and saying anything otherwise will kill After Hours forevserzzzz.

Have they decided a name for the shadowy clique of anonymous man-haters?

4zn76tysfajdxp

Gummy Panda wrote: »

Have they decided a name for the shadowy clique of anonymous man-haters?

The Eliminati.

sheesh

Are there sexist comments in AH? yes there are.

as I see it unfortunately there are different types of sexist comments

actual sexist comments by people who are sexist and are just expressing their opinion

people making sexist comments for reasons of humor ie making a sexist comment to say something outlandish and thereby funny.

people trolling by starting sexist threads.

most of the comments I have seen are only slightly offensive to me but that does not mean that these comments would not be very offensive to someone else.

After hours is a fairly free area any threads that are locked seem to be locked for good reasons.

My feedback is this. if someone is sexist and makes a sexist comment I want to see it so I can take the piss out of them for making it
I don't mind the funny sexist comments.
I am not particularly interested in the trolling threads unless they are entertaining.

I am not too sure if users have a right not to be offended when entering After hours.

there are regular anti culchie /anti dub threads, worst town in ireland threads, anti public service threads. anti bank threads. if you go down the road of trying to stop people being offended you might stop the trash talking that makes AH so vibrant.

tldr? sanction for the worst excesses leave we enough alone

a fat guy

I've skipped to the sixth page and noticed that this feedback has quickly turned into a quarrel.

This should be proof enough that sexism in any form cannot simply be joked about on this website.

hatrickpatrick

If you're easily offended, AH is not the place for you.
I see words like "immature", "troll infested", "cynical" etc being thrown around about AH. And I agree with all of them. The thing is, that's what AH is, that's what AH always has been, and to be honest when I post a thread there I in no way expect to get anything in response except pisstakes and attempts at humor (with intermittent success rates, it must be said).

If I want reasonable discussion I go to Politics or Personal Issues. I have never reported a post on AH because I simply don't regard AH as the kind of forum which is supposed to be serious business. Perhaps I've been wrong about it in the many, many years I've been a member of this website, but I regard AH as the /b/ of Boards.ie, and I love it for what it is.I always assumed pretty much everyone understood AH in that context.

To try and change this is to try and change the entire culture of the board. Whether or not you believe this should be done and/or whether or not you believe it would be desirable is, in my view, irrelevant - it would take a seismic shift in the board's membership and perception in order to actually achieve it. After Hours is like the tide, trying to steer it is utterly futile.

That's just my view. If you try to censor or "tame" After Hours you are going to be sorely disappointed. Better off just not using it if you're not up for dripping sarcasm and cynical gobsh!tes.

Liam McPoyle

It used to be the norm for bars and restaurants in the US to not serve black Americans.

Just because something has been rotten for a long time doesn't mean it can't/shouldn't be changed you know.

Millicent

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

If you're easily offended, AH is not the place for you.

Just a quick note, not everyone who is annoyed at some of the gender issues on AH is "easily offended". Some of them may be justly offended.

The King of Moo

My two cents:

Most AH posters of both genders are fine upstanding human beings, to the extent that any AH poster can be.

But there is a bit of a problem with sexism, and it is one-sided.

It comes from three sources:

1. the small number of posters who have serious issues with women, and tend to be quite bitter, who post some of the most vile stuff. There's not many of them, but they do have a disproportionate impact. At least, though, they can be swiftly dealt with as they tend to break the charter quite easily.

2. the people who make stupid jokes, even ones about rape, but without thinking about whether they cause harm. As others have stated, this does contribute to the overall unwelcoming atmosphere, but at least with lots of such posters the issue can be cleared up if another poster points out the offense, or if they receive an infraction. It's been heartening to see more sexist and rape jokes receive warnings lately, and I think that'll help to make some posters question whether something they'd planned to post might be offensive or not, and choose not to post it.

3. the worst of all, in between 1 and 2, are the low-level trolls and agenda posters. They're too savvy to get banned too often, but they're very hard to dissuade from posting their continuous crap. Though their intentions are somewhat different, their results are usually the same: winding most posters up, and encouraging the genuinely sexist posters.
There's one poster in particular who always pops up on any thread about Irish women, and never posts anything extreme enough to get a ban or a warning. But he'll always wind people up by pretending to imagine situations in which perhaps, for example, Irish women might possibly not be as good as others, just hyopthetically mind you. or clearly using a one-off case as a brush to paint all Irish women with, but then cry that they weren't trying to be sexist, just using a one-off example.
These are the worst kind of poster (the racist variety has also been cropping up a lot lately and also putting me off AH somewhat) as they deliberately prolong arguments and draw in the extreme sexists, all while pretending to be reasonable and never really breaking the charter.

I think reporting posts, even when they're genuinely meant as "banter," is helping a lot, and I applaud the mods for making a real, visible effort to stamp out the sexist remarks. I think this will help to change the atmosphere a lot.
But I think the real problem is with these mid-level posters (some trolls, some who actually believe what they say). I'm not really sure how to deal with them though.
Some posters have called them out on the fact that they always post the same stuff in the same threads, but I'm not sure that'd deter them.

One way might be to PM a mod, asking them to have a look at a certain poster who's always posting the same stuff in the same threads, and they could have a quick scan of their recent posts, and if there's a clear pattern they could send them a PM asking them to cop on a bit, or change the record.
I think that might feel a bit too much like squealing though. I know I'd feel uncomfortable "telling" on another poster.
And it pains me to say it, but it might be a bit unfair: even though I don't like what they're saying, they're not breaking the charter, though it might be argued that constantly posting mildly offensive and leading posts might be being a d*ck, like persistent fouling in football.

Boombastic

Millicent wrote: »

A question about maternity leave and jobs has these answers:

Originally Posted by Boombastic
Is her boss the father of the child

If the above quote by me is sexist, I think that the level of modding some posters want in after hours would be over bearing and really stifle the lightheartness and discussion on the forum threads.

Millicent

Boombastic wrote: »

If the above quote by me is sexist, I think that the level of modding some posters want in after hours would be over bearing and really stifle the lightheartness and discussion on the forum threads.

It wasn't a light-hearted thread. I generally don't have a problem with your posts and have had some grand conversations with you recently, but can you not understand why that is offensive? Or why it might be irritating when a thread with about 12 posts has 3 making some comment on the sexual activity of a pregnant woman?

Boombastic

Millicent wrote: »

It wasn't a light-hearted thread. I generally don't have a problem with your posts and have some grand conversations with you recently, but can you not understand why that is offensive? Or why it might be irritating when a thread with about 12 posts has 3 making some comment on the sexual activity of a pregnant woman?

There is a work and jobs section that would have been more suitable if she wanted a serious answer. AH should be a more light-hearted forum.

Millicent

Boombastic wrote: »

There is a work and jobs section that would have been more suitable if she wanted a serious answer. AH should be a more light-hearted forum.

It is sometimes and sometimes it's not. Not every thread in AH is a light-hearted one. Completely throwing a thread off-topic in the rush to make a joke about a woman who is not there to defend herself is not on.

ETA: You also never answered my question. Can you not see why that might be offensive?

Boombastic

Millicent wrote: »

It is sometimes and sometimes it's not. Not every thread in AH is a light-hearted one. Completely throwing a thread off-topic in the rush to make a joke about a woman who is not there to defend herself is not on.

ETA: You also never answered my question. Can you not see why that might be offensive?

Different things offend different people. As a woman, I don't find that offensive, As a woman (if I'm correct) you do. I think you are being over zealous to a joke, you think I'm being offensive. It's very hard to strike a balance that will suit all.

Annasopra

Boombastic wrote: »

Different things offend different people. As a woman, I don't find that offensive, As a woman (if I'm correct) you do. I think you are being over zealous to a joke, you think I'm being offensive. It's very hard to strike a balance that will suit all.

Where's the joke?

Boombastic

mango salsa wrote: »

Where's the joke?

How is it offensive?

Millicent

Boombastic wrote: »

Different things offend different people. As a woman, I don't find that offensive, As a woman (if I'm correct) you do. I think you are being over zealous to a joke, you think I'm being offensive. It's very hard to strike a balance that will suit all.

I am not being over-zealous. I know the lay of the land to AH -- it's where the vast majority of my posts are. I have noticed an issue; other users have noticed an issue; the Mods and Admins have noticed an issue. If you wish to post humour that may be offensive, there is a forum for that, the Nein 11 private forum. Now of course you don't find that offensive -- it's not aimed at your gender. But if it's going to offend a sizeable portion of other posters, why would you even want to post it? This is what I don't understand.