orange provocation

fasttalkerchat

Marcellus Jerome Clarke wrote: »

fasttalkerchat, I think that is a rather naive view. Recent polls say the majority of people are happy with the current set up and the border remaining in place. The problem isn't the border, it is people living in slums with little way out. The majority of people in Northern Ireland don't live in such areas which invite aggression and rioting.

People will accept the border, stormont and the current limbo-land Norlern Irelann statelet in exchange for Peace and some degree of economic safety.

Also: welcome back to boards.

Noreen1

billybudd wrote: »

Who is attacking their religion?

No-one. That's the point.
To the OO member who is moderate, (the vast majority in the Republic, imo) this is a religious, rather than sectarian organisation.
Therefore, refusing to let them march will be viewed as an attack on their Religion.
The nut-jobs, of course, use it in the North to further their sectarian agenda.
We have an opportunity to allow moderate Protestants their day out - while stamping out the Sectarianism that was part of their marches in the North for too many years, which the British authorities failed to do.
Refuse the moderates their day, and alienate them - or grant them their day, and have them alienate the nutjobs in their midst, themselves?

That's what it boils down to, at the end of the day.

Bessiebee wrote: »

Noreen1 wrote: »

What I do care about, is the blatant sectarianism, and triumphalism engaged in by so many of their members - such as not being allowed to marry Catholics (don't know whether that one is still in force), not allowed to attend Catholic funerals - and deliberately antagonising Catholics/Nationalists on marches.

Members of the OO bend the rules to suit themselves, they do marry Catholics, attend catholic funerals etc. I would imagine it depends on what lodge you belong to.

I know that. I live in Donegal. I have OO members as neighbours, and perfectly good, upstanding, decent people they are, too.

I'm sure it depends on what lodge you belong to - and I'm equally sure that the most troublesome lodges are in the North.
What I do not understand is why moderate OO members tolerate the bile that the troublemakers spew.

I know that the OO is autonomous in every Country. What I can't understand is why the executive chooses to excuse the kind of behaviour in that video, and tells stupid lies to cover up for it.

Oh, by the way, I can safely say the majority of people in Donegal believe we are on the right side of the border.:p
Seriously, we're grand being Irish, and quite capable of getting on with our neighbours, whether Catholic or Protestant, Nationalist or Unionist.
That doesn't mean we want to be part of Northern Ireland, though.:eek:
In fact, tell someone from Donegal that they're from the North, and they're likely to find it offensive.
We're comfortable with our own identity, and part of that identity happens to be Irish.

woodoo

Noreen1 wrote: »

No-one. That's the point.
To the OO member who is moderate, (the vast majority in the Republic, imo) this is a religious, rather than sectarian organisation.
Therefore, refusing to let them march will be viewed as an attack on their Religion.
The nut-jobs, of course, use it in the North to further their sectarian agenda.
We have an opportunity to allow moderate Protestants their day out - while stamping out the Sectarianism that was part of their marches in the North for too many years, which the British authorities failed to do.
Refuse the moderates their day, and alienate them - or grant them their day, and have them alienate the nutjobs in their midst, themselves?
.

I disagree, a march in Dublin will attract scum from the north. We don't need that happening every year.

alastair

woodoo wrote: »

I disagree, a march in Dublin will attract scum from the north. We don't need that happening every year.

Just run it the same weekend as Oxegen - problem solved - scumbag quotient in Dublin retains equilibrium.

Happyman42

alastair wrote: »

Just run it the same weekend as Oxegen - problem solved - scumbag quotient in Dublin retains equilibrium.

And the issue of officially santioning sectarianism is avoided. Typical. :rolleyes:

Marcellus Jerome Clarke

Why are you so obsessed with Sectarianism? Marches all over Ireland be it Loyalist and Unionist or Republican and Nationalist are Sectarian. All these people who march for what ever cause they believe in are fully entitled to march and have the liberty to do so.

Every year there is a 12th of July party at Áras an Uachtarain in which the President attends. Is Michael D Higgins being Sectarian because he attends an event which some would deem as Sectarian?

woodoo

Marcellus Jerome Clarke wrote: »

Why are you so obsessed with Sectarianism? Marches all over Ireland be it Loyalist and Unionist or Republican and Nationalist are Sectarian. All these people who march for what ever cause they believe in are fully entitled to march and have the liberty to do so.

Every year there is a 12th of July party at Áras an Uachtarain in which the President attends. Is Michael D Higgins being Sectarian because he attends an event which some would deem as Sectarian?

The problem is the OO not the 12th.

Bessiebee

Noreen1 wrote: »

No-one. That's the point.
To the OO member who is moderate, (the vast majority in the Republic, imo) this is a religious, rather than sectarian organisation.
Therefore, refusing to let them march will be viewed as an attack on their Religion.
The nut-jobs, of course, use it in the North to further their sectarian agenda.
We have an opportunity to allow moderate Protestants their day out - while stamping out the Sectarianism that was part of their marches in the North for too many years, which the British authorities failed to do.
Refuse the moderates their day, and alienate them - or grant them their day, and have them alienate the nutjobs in their midst, themselves?

That's what it boils down to, at the end of the day.

Bessiebee wrote: »

I know that. I live in Donegal. I have OO members as neighbours, and perfectly good, upstanding, decent people they are, too.

I'm sure it depends on what lodge you belong to - and I'm equally sure that the most troublesome lodges are in the North.
What I do not understand is why moderate OO members tolerate the bile that the troublemakers spew.

I know that the OO is autonomous in every Country. What I can't understand is why the executive chooses to excuse the kind of behaviour in that video, and tells stupid lies to cover up for it.

Oh, by the way, I can safely say the majority of people in Donegal believe we are on the right side of the border.:p
Seriously, we're grand being Irish, and quite capable of getting on with our neighbours, whether Catholic or Protestant, Nationalist or Unionist.
That doesn't mean we want to be part of Northern Ireland, though.:eek:
In fact, tell someone from Donegal that they're from the North, and they're likely to find it offensive.
We're comfortable with our own identity, and part of that identity happens to be Irish.

Oh, by the way my "Donegal being on the wrong side of the border" post was a light hearted attempt at injecting some humour but it obviously got lost in translation ... I am just one of those Donegal people suffering from an identity crisis, you know the ones who can give a word perfect rendition of the sash by the age of 2, a couple of decades later find themselves married to a catholic and have their own little small people who play Gaelic Football one week and go to the 12th July the next ... but I guess everyone has their own problems & seriously, no offence was intended. We could be neighbours afterall

Marcellus Jerome Clarke

Orange Order members attend the event. Michael D Higgins attends the event with Orange Order members. Michael D Higgins is a Protestant, so he understands the importance the Order is to thousands of Protestants in Ireland.

Fenian Army

Marcellus Jerome Clarke wrote: »

Orange Order members attend the event. Michael D Higgins attends the event with Orange Order members. Michael D Higgins is a Protestant, so he understands the importance the Order is to thousands of Protestants in Ireland.

Didnt you hear? His Da was in the 'RA.

Is he a protestant? I neither know nor care.

Marcellus Jerome Clarke

Yes he is a Protestant. Michael D Higgins is determined to move on and bring Irish people together. Orange and Green.

woodoo

Fenian Army wrote: »

Didnt you hear? His Da was in the 'RA.

Is he a protestant? I neither know nor care.

He is non religious i think.

Happyman42

Fenian Army wrote: »

Is he a protestant?

I didn't know he was either.
It wouldn't be the first time the Irish Gov got the sentiment or reaction wrong.
McAleese's peace and reconciliation guff and Higgin's more stealth approach keep getting thrown in their faces with 'excuses' like that given by the OO.
A march in Dublin, they know, would be a step too far, because they can't control it. The fear is that the people would be able to show what they really feel.

Bessiebee

I think I read somewhere he is a humanist.

Marcellus Jerome Clarke

He said during the Presidential election he was a Protestant. So I take him for his word.

Bessiebee

Marcellus Jerome Clarke wrote: »

He said during the Presidential election he was a Protestant. So I take him for his word.

I don't think so - you may be confusing him with David Norris.

alastair

Michael D is a Catholic - but of the lapsed variety I'd guess. He seems completely agnostic these days, but was baptised a Catholic, married in a Catholic Church, and used to be involved in the Legion of Mary.

David Norris said he was the only non-Catholic in the presidential race.

Marcellus Jerome Clarke

My bad, thought he was. Came across very genuine. Either way, he seems happy enough to attend an event with Orange Order members. So he is tolerant which is good. Good guy.

bobmalooka

Marcellus Jerome Clarke wrote: »

He said during the Presidential election he was a Protestant. So I take him for his word.

wrong again Keith but dont let facts get in the way of your hatred. did you pay up that charity bet yet?

alastair

bobmalooka wrote: »

wrong again Keith but dont let facts get in the way of your hatred.

Hatred of agnostic presidents? Now - there's niche.

Fuinseog

john why wrote: »

just seen on the bbc newsline that yesterday a loyalist band stoped at a catholic church to sing the famine song and to have a little march. wtf is wrong with these people, and they claim there not sectarian.

dont know how to upload links, maybe someone else could

just go to the pro cathedral in Dublin any Sunday and you will see protesters with signs sayings all Catholics are paedos.

OP, Catholics present themselves as victims, but are equally sectarian. hang around with a few Celtic heads anywhere in Ireland and it will all come out.

I spend time in the north and got rocks thrown at me cos a group of Catholics thought I was a Jaffa.

PauloMN

Fuinseog wrote: »

just go to the pro cathedral in Dublin any Sunday and you will see protesters with signs sayings all Catholics are paedos.

OP, Catholics present themselves as victims, but are equally sectarian. hang around with a few Celtic heads anywhere in Ireland and it will all come out.

I spend time in the north and got rocks thrown at me cos a group of Catholics thought I was a Jaffa.

So Celtic fan = Catholic? FFS, I've heard it all now. :rolleyes:

It may also surprise you that not all "Celtic heads" are die hard republican, IRA supporters either. But don't let that spoil your delusion.

Fuinseog

PauloMN wrote: »

So Celtic fan = Catholic? FFS, I've heard it all now. :rolleyes:

It may also surprise you that not all "Celtic heads" are die hard republican, IRA supporters either. But don't let that spoil your delusion.

by the same token, are all orangemen bigots?
Celtic supporters nurture sectarianism.

Fuinseog

TEMPLAR KNIGHT wrote: »

They live to provoke Catholics/republicans because they have nothing better to do.

pretty much like the crowd who threw stones at the guards at the love ulster parade and when the queen came.

PauloMN

Fuinseog wrote: »

by the same token, are all orangemen bigots?
Celtic supporters nurture sectarianism.

The OO, if you look at the rules of the organisation, has sectarianism enshrined in its very being.

Your second comment.... lol, nice try!

Happyman42

PauloMN wrote: »

The OO, if you look at the rules of the organisation, has sectarianism enshrined in its very being.

Which is the point, you are either for that or against it. Turn a blind eye to it and it will eventually take the lid off the box. With a drop from over 100,000 members in 1968 to less than 30,000 and falling today, it won't be long until the thugs are running it. Natural selection has seen it fall, now it's up to responsible governments to finish it off, by not tolerating sectarianism in whatever funny hats it comes dressed.
Celebrate your culture by all means, but celebrate it with personal responsibility and self respect.

celtictiger32

Fuinseog wrote: »

by the same token, are all orangemen bigots?
Celtic supporters nurture sectarianism.

em yes they are!

Our man in Havana

are all orangemen bigots?

Nope.

fasttalkerchat

celtictiger32 wrote: »

em yes they are!

I know one who masks it quite well. He believes that the border should be redrawn and that there should be a state for Catholics and one for Protestants similar to India and Pakistan. He has no problem with Irish people as long as they accept that Norelann Irelann is his country... is this still bigotry? Probably.

fasttalkerchat

Fuinseog wrote: »

Celtic supporters nurture sectarianism.

Oh? How? I have heard sectarian comments at Celtic matches but they never went unchallenged.