orange provocation

Happyman42

alastair wrote: »

Heh. I note you felt 'ethnic dances' watered down your position somewhat. All the pasty-faced indigenous residents of NI are from the same ethnic melting pot. There's no racism at play outside that church - just common or garden sectarianism.

The OO see themselves as members of the British race, when they invoke hatred against the Irish race, that is racism.

alastair

Happyman42 wrote: »

When it incites it is.
Keep up the pathetic game you are playing, admitting the crime doesn't diminish it. Decent people and decent societies will keep going after bigots no matter where they hide.
30,000 left and falling. Probably a good deal more gone after the little stunt outside the church.

Hundreds of thousands out for the marches this year, you'd be a fool to bet against the same story next year. What's 'pathetic' is attempting to wish away the reality of a movement that get punters out to that degree.

Happyman42 wrote: »

Why do you keep up with the whataboutery when you don't want to address the issues?

Because the point you raised is quite clearly deflated by those 'what abouts'. That's why. The UK is as much a secular state as Canada - regardless of what their monarch's relationship with one church or all might be.

alastair

Happyman42 wrote: »

The OO see themselves as members of the British race, when they invoke hatred against the Irish race, that is racism.

The 'British race'?! The 'Irish race'?! Away up the road!

Jimoslimos

alastair wrote: »

Hundreds of thousands out for the marches this year, you'd be a fool to bet against the same story next year. What's 'pathetic' is attempting to wish away the reality of a movement that get punters out to that degree.

It doesn't matter whether 50 or 50,000 people turn out to watch them. The actions of the OO are still wrong and should be condemned

Happyman42

alastair wrote: »

Hundreds of thousands out for the marches this year, you'd be a fool to bet against the same story next year. What's 'pathetic' is attempting to wish away the reality of a movement that get punters out to that degree.

Membership of the OO is 30,000 and falling. As I said, that so many go for the day out does not relate to or bolster the collapse in membership figures, since the peace process began.

Because the point you raised is quite clearly deflated by those 'what abouts'. That's why. The UK is as much a secular state as Canada - regardless of what their monarch's relationship with one church or all might be.

I give up, you clearly don't want to stray into territories that weaken your standpoint further.
You live in a state of denial similar to that of the orangeman, preferring to ridicule posters than address what they are actually saying.

cardwizzard

Fact of the matter is that no matter how much the OO try to dress up their organisation, they are rotting to the core with bigots and scum.

And until these elements are ousted, which IMO will never happen because they don't want them out, they will continue to be the same narrow minded, pathetic excuse of a 'culture' know to mankind.

Happyman42

alastair wrote: »

The 'British race'?! The 'Irish race'?! Away up the road!

We'll see how many scones you get offered in the field next year after your keynote speech claiming 'We are all the same, give up yer auld bowler hats!' :rolleyes:

alastair

billybudd wrote: »

Yes again passive agressive, WOO the more branded more respectable coke while poor gerry is the inferior roller cola. nice!

I'm guessing that whooshing noise over your head means nothing to you?

billybudd wrote: »

Interesting that there is no orange in the union jack but the RC religion is represented by the flag of st.patrick, its absolute tripe to adopt the color orange as a symbol of being protestant quite ludricrous really, but carry on i am enjoying laughing at you.

The Union flag is a composite of the various countries of the UK. The only religious symbolism in any of those relates to generic christianity - unlike the tricolour. The cross of Saint Patrick is not a religious symbol - it's the symbol of a British chivalric order.

alastair

Happyman42 wrote: »

Membership of the OO is 30,000 and falling. As I said, that so many go for the day out does not relate to or bolster the collapse in membership figures, since the peace process began.

Yeah - keep ignores the hundreds of thousands out on the roads in support of this withering organisation. Maybe no-one will come out next year, eh?

Happyman42 wrote: »

I give up, you clearly don't want to stray into territories that weaken your standpoint further.
You live in a state of denial similar to that of the orangeman, preferring to ridicule posters than address what they are actually saying.

I'm addressing your points. Sadly you don't like what I'm posting though. I'd say the denial problem isn't at this end.

Happyman42

alastair wrote: »

Yeah - keep ignores the hundreds of thousands out on the roads in support of this withering organisation. Maybe no-one will come out next year, eh?

Are you going to address the collapse in membership or not? Jesus H.:rolleyes:

alastair

cardwizzard wrote: »

Fact of the matter is that no matter how much the OO try to dress up their organisation, they are rotting to the core with bigots and scum.

And until these elements are ousted, which IMO will never happen because they don't want them out, they will continue to be the same narrow minded, pathetic excuse of a 'culture' know to mankind.

Just a reminder that all but one of the parades this year were arranged with consideration to those who object to the parades. For an organisation comprised largely of bigots, and to some degree of, yep, scumbags. They seem to be generally managing to work out some sort of compromise for the future.

Jimoslimos

alastair wrote: »

Yeah - keep ignores the hundreds of thousands out on the roads in support of this withering organisation. Maybe no-one will come out next year, eh?

Again I'll ask, since when does mass support of a movement mean it's right?

alastair

Happyman42 wrote: »

Are you going to address the collapse in membership or not? Jesus H.:rolleyes:

There's no collapse in OO membership that doesn't reflect the decline in broader (Protestant and Catholic) participation on this island. If you think the OO is going to disappear, you're presumably of the same opinion for the main churches too. Maybe someday, but there's nothing imminent.

alastair

Jimoslimos wrote: »

Again I'll ask, since when does mass support of a movement mean it's right?

I don't approve of their principles, but I've no problem with those who do participating in marches. The point isn't really whether we (outside that tradition) think it's right or not - it's how we all learn to get along with some mutual respect.

cardwizzard

alastair wrote: »

Just a reminder that all but one of the parades this year were arranged with consideration to those who object to the parades. For an organisation comprised largely of bigots, and to some degree of, yep, scumbags. They seem to be generally managing to work out some sort of compromise for the future.

What has that got to do with what I posted?

Are they not the masters anymore, that they once thought. Are you trying to tell me they are trying to devolp and move with the times?

Do the still expel or try to, any members who attend a Catholic Mass? Police officer who was murdered at that. This time last year, nice compromise for the future.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-politics-13064956

Noreen1

billybudd wrote: »

I am sorry but william of orange is not symbol of the protestant religion, he is a symbol of war and in this case it is the battle of the boyne and from an Irish context that war was about being released from sectarian and etnic rule and to have rights to own land and have rights to hold office as a catholic and to one day self govern as an independent state.

Also you can be proud to be Irish and be protestant without the need to join and be part of an order that celebrates from its earliest onset sectarian and bigotry behaviour.

If it is a orange order lodge then the clue is in the name, orange=william of orange, a Dutch man who came to Ireland to preserve the right to treat Irish nationlists as second rate citizens with no rights.

I include RC & COI as Irish nationals btw.

Of course you can be proud to be Irish and Protestant without being a member of the OO.

I'm not a member, or supporter, of the OO, by the way.
But plenty of Protestants, who are not members of the OO, go to these marches, and, whether I like it or not, some Protestants see King Billy as the defender of their Religion, and the defender of Religious freedom, but without seeing any need for triumphalism, or having any dislike against either the Irish, or Catholics.

If we prevent an orderly, peaceful march in Dublin - and again, I stress the need to respect Nationalist sentiments - then we are discriminating against them, in the same way that Catholics in Northern Ireland were discriminated against for years - and the extremists among the OO get to bleat about how we're intolerant.

I'm fully aware of the hypocrisy of the "victim complex" that some Northern OO members like to portray. I just don't believe in either giving them fuel for that particular fire - or allowing them any triumphalist nonsense.

Therefore, if the Irish lodges are allowed march, avoiding sensitive areas - and assuming that they are going to behave in a civilised manner - then, fair enough, let them march.

If they choose not to behave in a civilised manner - then future marches can be banned. (And the bill for damages should be forwarded to any lodge that causes trouble.)

If any of the yobs from Northern Ireland show up, and decide to start trouble, then they should be flung in Mountjoy, and subjected to every charge the Gardaí can throw at them.
I'm tempted to suggest that they should be escorted back across the border, preferably by the Irish army, and at gunpoint, but
a: I doubt if that's possible, and
b: The idea of them spending a while locked up, and subjected to justice, appeals to me.:D

alastair

cardwizzard wrote: »

What has that got to do with what I posted?

Are they not the masters anymore, that they once thought. Are you trying to tell me they are trying to devolp and move with the times?

That's what I'm telling you. It might well be smallish steps - but it is definitely different to what it used to be. The same is true (moreso imo) for the Apprentice Boys.

Happyman42

alastair wrote: »

There's no collapse in OO membership that doesn't reflect the decline in broader (Protestant and Catholic) participation on this island. If you think the OO is going to disappear, you're presumably of the same opinion for the main churches too. Maybe someday, but there's nothing imminent.

Over 100,000 in 1968....30,000 and falling today, in the highest church going population in the UK.
I'm afraid church participation doen't explain a collapse of that nature.
What does explain it though, is the realisation that this organisation will continue to embarass decent christians and they want none of it.

PauloMN

alastair wrote: »

Just a reminder that all but one of the parades this year were arranged with consideration to those who object to the parades. For an organisation comprised largely of bigots, and to some degree of, yep, scumbags. They seem to be generally managing to work out some sort of compromise for the future.

"They" are working it out? :rolleyes: Nothing to do with the Parades Commission, politicians and the local representatives then? The OO in NI historically showed little concern to those who objected to their parades. Without changing times and outside influences, I doubt anything would have changed with regard to OO parades.

Still nothing I can see on the OO website with regard to the behaviour of Orangemen in the OP. Maybe I'm looking in the wrong place, so if anyone can point me to an OO statement on the incident, and how the OO will be dealing with it, I'd appreciate it.

alastair

Happyman42 wrote: »

Over 100,000 in 1968....30,000 and falling today, in the highest church going population in the UK.
I'm afraid church participation doen't explain a collapse of that nature.

Of course it does - what were the mass-going numbers for '68 compared to today?

alastair

PauloMN wrote: »

"They" are working it out? :rolleyes: Nothing to do with the Parades Commission, politicians and the local representatives then? The OO in NI historically showed little concern to those who objected to their parades. Without changing times and outside influences, I doubt anything would have changed with regard to OO parades.

That's all well and good - but you can say the same for anything. The fact is that they have shifted their stance on discussing routing, times, and music - and have made changes.

Happyman42

Noreen1 wrote: »

If we prevent an orderly, peaceful march in Dublin - and again, I stress the need to respect Nationalist sentiments - then we are discriminating against them, in the same way that Catholics in Northern Ireland were discriminated against for years - and the extremists among the OO get to bleat about how we're intolerant.

No we are not discriminating, we are simply NOT legitimising a sectarian organisation. I have no respect for them and no amount of PC pressure is going to extract it from me.

alastair

Happyman42 wrote: »

No we are not discriminating, we are simply NOT legitimising a sectarian organisation. I have no respect for them and no amount of PC pressure is going to extract it from me.

That attitude sounds awfully orangey.

PauloMN

cardwizzard wrote: »

What has that got to do with what I posted?

Are they not the masters anymore, that they once thought. Are you trying to tell me they are trying to devolp and move with the times?

Do the still expel or try to, any members who attend a Catholic Mass? Police officer who was murdered at that. This time last year, nice compromise for the future.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-politics-13064956

It's quite incredible to think that was only last year. Unsurprising, but incredible that this sort of thinking is still apparent in modern day NI.

cardwizzard

alastair wrote: »

That's what I'm telling you. It might well be smallish steps - but it is definitely different to what it used to be. The same is true (moreso imo) for the Apprentice Boys.

What about the rest of my post. No opinion on that.

I'd disagree with you 100% that they are changing or want to. IMO they are so deeply engrained in bigotry and hatred of all things Cathloic or Irish that they will never change.

Noreen1

alastair wrote: »

Heh. I note you felt 'ethnic dances' watered down your position somewhat. All the pasty-faced indigenous residents of NI are from the same ethnic melting pot. There's no racism at play outside that church - just common or garden sectarianism.

Where did I say there was?
Incitement to hatred of Catholics, most of whom in Northern Ireland, identify themselves as being of Irish ethnicity, however, is another matter entirely.

Incidently, I felt "ethnic dances" wasn't relevant, not that it watered down my argument.
Then again, if you consider that display by a bandmember of hopping around the place like a deranged monkey as some kind of "ethnic dance" - maybe it does have relevance.......:p:D

Incidently, what's an "Ulster Scot", if not a member of an ethnic group?

alastair

cardwizzard wrote: »

What about the rest of my post. No opinion on that.

I'd disagree with you 100% that they are changing or want to. IMO they are so deeply engrained in bigotry and hatred of all things Cathloic or Irish that they will never change.

Except that they have.

cardwizzard

PauloMN wrote: »

It's quite incredible to think that was only last year. Unsurprising, but incredible that this sort of thinking is still apparent in modern day NI.

Rules are rules and they must be upheld. :eek::eek: WTF.

alastair

cardwizzard wrote: »

Rules are rules and they must be upheld. :eek::eek: WTF.

When were Rules 21 and 42 suspended in the GAA? No shortage of dodgy sectarianism in all our recent history.

PauloMN

alastair wrote: »

That's all well and good - but you can say the same for anything. The fact is that they have shifted their stance on discussing routing, times, and music - and have made changes.

Yes, they have, but to try and give them credit for doing so when, in reality, their hand was forced is short-sighted.

I welcome them to have a parade in Dublin if they so wish. We live in a democracy. I would expect the OO to work with the Gardaí and local authorities on planning it though, giving careful consideration to the timing, its route and the expected behaviour of the participants.

My main concern is the lack of control they have over their members, which was quite clear by the carry on at that church. I'd expect full accountability from the organising ROI lodge if such incidents happened here, and the deafening silence that we see from the OO up north would not be acceptable if we were to allow such marches here. I'd also expect the ROI organisers to take full responsibility for the behaviour of any OO members travelling from the six counties for such a parade in Dublin.

Finally, if this were to happen, it would need to be exclusively an OO march. No tag-on groups like Love Ulster, FAIR or other such organisations.