orange provocation

alastair

PauloMN wrote: »

"The famine is over, why don't you go home."

Seriously, do I have to spell it out for you? The British courts hold the view that this ditty is racist, plain and simple. In what way do you believe that the British court is so far wrong?

You are a perfect summary of what is wrong with the OO. Completely blind to rabid racism right in front of your eyes. Take off those orange tints and try and view the world from the side of someone who sees that carry on outside their local church in their country.

Thankfully decent Protestants, both north and south, have nothing to do with the OO and its ilk.

A Scottish judge makes a judgement in one context - that doesn't make the incident of the 12th a racist one - again - what racial group do you believe was offended by what happened in Ardoyne - it shouldn't be that tricky to identify?

Let's make it easy -
race and ethnicity of accused perpetrators =
race and ethnicity of alleged victims =

Or maybe, just maybe, we're actually dealing with plain old sectarianism here, and you're blathering on about something that doesn't actually apply?

Happyman42

alastair wrote: »

It's not remotely racist. Which race do you believe are the victims in this case?

The one that sees itself as Irish and has no hangups about it. The paralel mandate of the Grand Lodge is to keep Ulster Protestant and British and the indigenous race is and always has been threat to that. The OO target that race, in any of it's expressions, religious and political.

Nodin

true wrote: »

its said, open your eyes.

Your first post on this thread is on page 30, afaik. Between there and here I see no mention of the OP whatsoever.

So tell me, whats your opinion of the scene described and shown in the OP, outside the church.

Richard

votecounts wrote: »

Lol, have you ever seen an orange march, its about humiliating the catholics and reminding them they won the battle of the boyne centuries ago.

I don't think Catholics, or indeed, most Protestants care who won the Battle of the Boyne.

It's so last millennium.

TommyPolack

alastair wrote: »

I've attended the odd Orange march yes - have you?

Pray tell - which foreign nation would you say was conquered at the battle of the Boyne?

You are aware that the Orange Order do indeed parade in Britain, yep?

WIKI - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Boyne


"The Battle of the Boyne was fought in 1690 between two rival claimants of the English, Scottish, and Irish thrones – the Catholic King James and the Protestant King William (who had deposed James in 1688) – across the River Boyne near Drogheda on the east coast of Ireland. The battle, won by William, was a turning point in James' unsuccessful attempt to regain the crown and ultimately helped ensure the continuation of Protestant ascendancy in Ireland."

Well it looks like England hocked up with Scotland to whoop Irish ass.

alastair

Happyman42 wrote: »

The one that sees itself as Irish and has no hangups about it. The paralel mandate of the Grand Lodge is to keep Ulster Protestant and British and the indigenous race is and always has been threat to that. The OO target that race, in any of it's expressions, religious and political.

I didn't realise that nationalists and unionists were distinct racial groups! You learn something new every day. :rolleyes:

PauloMN

alastair wrote: »

A Scottish judge makes a judgement in one context - that doesn't make the incident of the 12th a racist one - again - what racial group do you believe was offended by what happened in Ardoyne - it shouldn't be that tricky to identify?

Let's make it easy -
race and ethnicity of accused perpetrators =
race and ethnicity of alleged victims =

Or maybe, just maybe, we're actually dealing with plain old sectarianism here, and you're blathering on about something that doesn't actually apply?

Perps = an official (from what I gather) OO marching band.
Victims = local Irish citizens, in particular members of that parish church.

What's your point? And how is sectarianism a lesser crime in any case?

Fratton Fred

TommyPolack wrote: »

WIKI - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Boyne


"The Battle of the Boyne was fought in 1690 between two rival claimants of the English, Scottish, and Irish thrones – the Catholic King James and the Protestant King William (who had deposed James in 1688) – across the River Boyne near Drogheda on the east coast of Ireland. The battle, won by William, was a turning point in James' unsuccessful attempt to regain the crown and ultimately helped ensure the continuation of Protestant ascendancy in Ireland."

Well it looks like England hocked up with Scotland to whoop Irish ass.

I think the Dutch hooking up with the Pope to whip the ass of the British is more accurate.

TommyPolack

Richard wrote: »

I don't think Catholics, or indeed, most Protestants care who won the Battle of the Boyne.

It's so last millennium.

It looks like someone care since it is the biggest annual celebration in NI.

alastair

PauloMN wrote: »

Perps = an official (from what I gather) OO marching band.
Victims = local Irish citizens, in particular members of that parish church.

What's your point? And how is sectarianism a lesser crime in any case?

Firstly - you've failed to identify the only relevant things in the question - race and ethnicity.

Secondly - Straw men statements are just tiresome - Who said sectarianism was 'a lesser crime'?

alastair

TommyPolack wrote: »

WIKI - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Boyne


"The Battle of the Boyne was fought in 1690 between two rival claimants of the English, Scottish, and Irish thrones – the Catholic King James and the Protestant King William (who had deposed James in 1688) – across the River Boyne near Drogheda on the east coast of Ireland. The battle, won by William, was a turning point in James' unsuccessful attempt to regain the crown and ultimately helped ensure the continuation of Protestant ascendancy in Ireland."

Well it looks like England hocked up with Scotland to whoop Irish ass.

Comprehension fail there, I'm afraid

PauloMN

I presume this is the main website of the OO in NI, no statement about the behaviour of OO members outside that church.
http://www.grandorangelodge.co.uk/press/recent.html

PauloMN

alastair wrote: »

Firstly - you've failed to identify the only relevant things in the question - race and ethnicity.

Secondly - Straw men statements are just tiresome - Who said sectarianism was 'a lesser crime'?

British and Irish.

Again, what is your point? And are you disagreeing with the findings of a British court?

TommyPolack

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I think the Dutch hooking up with the Pope to whip the ass of the British is more accurate.

Going further it is one man game - Rothschild.
Coming back to the subject. I was answering question about who invaded who and what are Brits celebrating on the 12th.
Protestants invaded Catholic nation, they won and now in NI, during the celebration of the victory, Brits burn catholic nation’s flags.
Simple.- pure sactarianism

TommyPolack

And I am far from taking sides, I just call it the way I see it.

Happyman42

alastair wrote: »

I didn't realise that nationalists and unionists were distinct racial groups! You learn something new every day. :rolleyes:

It's funny that the OO see themselves as a different race when they are shouting about their traditions and culture, eh?. Bowler hats and suit themselves!

Happyman42

Richard wrote: »

I don't think Catholics, or indeed, most Protestants care who won the Battle of the Boyne.

It's so last millennium.

:D
King James was crying his eyes out on the banks of the Boyne.
A young soldier puts his hand on his back and asks him, is he alright and why is he crying?
'I have let my side down, I have lost.......'
The young soldier says, 'Ah don't be worrying, dry your eyes, they'll forget about it in a week!'

Noreen1

alastair wrote: »

I didn't realise that nationalists and unionists were distinct racial groups! You learn something new every day. :rolleyes:

Nationalists and Unionists are different ethnic groups, and mostly, different Religions:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_Equality_Directive

The principle rules laid down are as follows:

1. Implements the principle of equal treatment between people irrespective of racial or ethnic origin.
2. Gives protection against discrimination in employment and training, education, social protection (including social security and healthcare), social advantages, membership and involvement in organisations of workers and employers and access to goods and services, including housing.
3. Contains definitions of direct and indirect discrimination and harassment and prohibits the instruction to discriminate and victimisation.

Pardon the wiki reference.

To a legal layman, it would appear that the correct definition of the harassment suffered by some Nationalists, at the hands of some Unionists, is ethnic and religious discrimination. Legislation appears to be mainly concerned with preotection in the workplace, and regarding social issues.

I'm not going to research whether burning the Polish flag is Racial or Ethnic discrimination, since TommyPolack appears perfectly capable of doing that for himself.

Bessiebee

Happyman42 wrote: »

It's funny that the OO see themselves as a different race when they are shouting about their traditions and culture, eh?. Bowler hats and suit themselves!

My mother told me that as a young girl growing up in the 40s/50s in East Donegal it was common place for catholic farmers to take over milking duties etc for their protestant neighbours on the 12th July so they could get dressed up to go marching in their suits, sashes and heaven forbid bowler hats :eek: and that such acts of tolerance and respect were recriprocated by protestant farmers when their catholic neighbours had their day out on the 15th August Would be great if we could all agree that there are different types of protestants, different types of catholics, different types of all different types of people living on this island without the need to bash and belittle the beliefs of one organisation just cause it doesn't conform to what we believe.

votecounts

Richard wrote: »

I don't think Catholics, or indeed, most Protestants care who won the Battle of the Boyne.

It's so last millennium.

then why do these racist idiots march ffs.

billybudd

alastair wrote: »

I didn't realise that nationalists and unionists were distinct racial groups! You learn something new every day. :rolleyes:

In the eyes of some unionists nationalists are not even human....and therein lies the problem.

Your being very passive agressive in this thread with your answers and refusal to see the blatant bigoty the OO file and rank have.

Noreen1

Bessiebee wrote: »

My mother told me that as a young girl growing up in the 40s/50s in East Donegal it was common place for catholic farmers to take over milking duties etc for their protestant neighbours on the 12th July so they could get dressed up to go marching in their suits, sashes and heaven forbid bowler hats :eek: and that such acts of tolerance and respect were recriprocated by protestant farmers when their catholic neighbours had their day out on the 15th August Would be great if we could all agree that there are different types of protestants, different types of catholics, different types of all different types of people living on this island without the need to bash and belittle the beliefs of one organisation just cause it doesn't conform to what we believe.

True.
But you're mostly preaching to the converted, here.

That message is one that needs to be given to the instigators of trouble in Northern Ireland.
People in the South already know that someone who happens to practice a different faith/have different political viewpoints, isn't automatically downright evil.

For some unfathomable (to me, at least) reason, some OO members in the North go to ridiculous lengths to antagonise and belittle their neighbours.
Not only that, they even go to the trouble of hiring buses to make sure they can behave like complete hate-filled, bigoted idiots.

Realistically, while these morons are allowed to be as offensive as they like, then, human nature being what it is, there will be a backlash.

For example, I see no reason why the Wicklow/Dublin/any Irish lodge of the OO shouldn't march in Dublin, if that's what they want to do.
I don't pretend to understand their allegiance to the crown - I can't understand why, for example, someone whose family have lived in Ireland for several generations would consider themselves British, rather than Irish, of British descent - but whatever floats their boat.
Equally, I have no issue with Protestant organisations being set up, to protect the Protestant faith. However, the blatant sectarianism in the rules of the OO make me sick!

Having said all of that - the thought of certain Northern lodges - the ones who cause trouble year after year - being allowed to march in the streets of Dublin makes my blood boil.
We neither need, nor want, that bigoted, hate-filled nonsense here.

I don't know how much time you've spent in Northern Ireland.
But you might want to reflect that different people will judge things by their own personal experience.
Therefore, if people have only experienced hate from the the only members of an organisation they have met - then they will naturally, view that organisation with animosity.
I have some very good neighbours who happen to be members of the OO.
Hence, I tend to keep am open mind.
However, I have also experienced bigotry from members of the OO in Northern Ireland - hence I sympathise with the people of Ardoyne, (and any other trouble spots in Northern Ireland) when certain lodges get up to the same antics, year after year.

The Orange Order needs to control these lodges. Until they do, then people will continue to resent their antics, and unfortunately, moderates will continue to feel misunderstood, and unwanted.

tl:dr:
If the Orange order want respect, they need to show respect, by curtailing the antics of the troublemakers in their midst, and negotiating a path that is acceptable to all of the people who live on this Island.

billybudd

Bessiebee wrote: »

My mother told me that as a young girl growing up in the 40s/50s in East Donegal it was common place for catholic farmers to take over milking duties etc for their protestant neighbours on the 12th July so they could get dressed up to go marching in their suits, sashes and heaven forbid bowler hats :eek: and that such acts of tolerance and respect were recriprocated by protestant farmers when their catholic neighbours had their day out on the 15th August Would be great if we could all agree that there are different types of protestants, different types of catholics, different types of all different types of people living on this island without the need to bash and belittle the beliefs of one organisation just cause it doesn't conform to what we believe.

What has the OO got to do with religion? what has the 12th of july to do with religion? do all protestants globaly celebrate this date? is it a religious day? no its a day that is celebrated for a brutal war that took place along time ago resulting in deaths of a lot of Irish people of both religions.

billybudd

Noreen1 wrote: »

True.
But you're mostly preaching to the converted, here.

That message is one that needs to be given to the instigators of trouble in Northern Ireland.
People in the South already know that someone who happens to practice a different faith/have different political viewpoints, isn't automatically downright evil.

For some unfathomable (to me, at least) reason, some OO members in the North go to ridiculous lengths to antagonise and belittle their neighbours.
Not only that, they even go to the trouble of hiring buses to make sure they can behave like complete hate-filled, bigoted idiots.

Realistically, while these morons are allowed to be as offensive as they like, then, human nature being what it is, there will be a backlash.

For example, I see no reason why the Wicklow/Dublin/any Irish lodge of the OO shouldn't march in Dublin, if that's what they want to do.
I don't pretend to understand their allegiance to the crown - I can't understand why, for example, someone whose family have lived in Ireland for several generations would consider themselves British, rather than Irish, of British descent - but whatever floats their boat.
Equally, I have no issue with Protestant organisations being set up, to protect the Protestant faith. However, the blatant sectarianism in the rules of the OO make me sick!

Having said all of that - the thought of certain Northern lodges - the ones who cause trouble year after year - being allowed to march in the streets of Dublin makes my blood boil.
We neither need, nor want, that bigoted, hate-filled nonsense here.

I don't know how much time you've spent in Northern Ireland.
But you might want to reflect that different people will judge things by their own personal experience.
Therefore, if people have only experienced hate from the the only members of an organisation they have met - then they will naturally, view that organisation with animosity.
I have some very good neighbours who happen to be members of the OO.
Hence, I tend to keep am open mind.
However, I have also experienced bigotry from members of the OO in Northern Ireland - hence I sympathise with the people of Ardoyne, (and any other trouble spots in Northern Ireland) when certain lodges get up to the same antics, year after year.

The Orange Order needs to control these lodges. Until they do, then people will continue to resent their antics, and unfortunately, moderates will continue to feel misunderstood, and unwanted.

tl:dr:
If the Orange order want respect, they need to show respect, by curtailing the antics of the troublemakers in their midst, and negotiating a path that is acceptable to all of the people who live on this Island.

Why should they be allowed to do this? why should loayalty to a foreign kingdom be allowed to be on show to an independent state? even without all the history between our two states why would this be something that is tolerated or allowed?

Border-Rat

Virgin Mary statue prepared for burning and a threat to a (Protestant) Sunday World reporter.

Happyman42

Bessiebee wrote: »

My mother told me that as a young girl growing up in the 40s/50s in East Donegal it was common place for catholic farmers to take over milking duties etc for their protestant neighbours on the 12th July so they could get dressed up to go marching in their suits, sashes and heaven forbid bowler hats :eek: and that such acts of tolerance and respect were recriprocated by protestant farmers when their catholic neighbours had their day out on the 15th August Would be great if we could all agree that there are different types of protestants, different types of catholics, different types of all different types of people living on this island without the need to bash and belittle the beliefs of one organisation just cause it doesn't conform to what we believe.

Noreen1 wrote: »

True.
But you're mostly preaching to the converted, here.

That message is one that needs to be given to the instigators of trouble in Northern Ireland.
People in the South already know that someone who happens to practice a different faith/have different political viewpoints, isn't automatically downright evil.

For some unfathomable (to me, at least) reason, some OO members in the North go to ridiculous lengths to antagonise and belittle their neighbours.
Not only that, they even go to the trouble of hiring buses to make sure they can behave like complete hate-filled, bigoted idiots.

Realistically, while these morons are allowed to be as offensive as they like, then, human nature being what it is, there will be a backlash.

For example, I see no reason why the Wicklow/Dublin/any Irish lodge of the OO shouldn't march in Dublin, if that's what they want to do.
I don't pretend to understand their allegiance to the crown - I can't understand why, for example, someone whose family have lived in Ireland for several generations would consider themselves British, rather than Irish, of British descent - but whatever floats their boat.
Equally, I have no issue with Protestant organisations being set up, to protect the Protestant faith. However, the blatant sectarianism in the rules of the OO make me sick!

Having said all of that - the thought of certain Northern lodges - the ones who cause trouble year after year - being allowed to march in the streets of Dublin makes my blood boil.
We neither need, nor want, that bigoted, hate-filled nonsense here.

I don't know how much time you've spent in Northern Ireland.
But you might want to reflect that different people will judge things by their own personal experience.
Therefore, if people have only experienced hate from the the only members of an organisation they have met - then they will naturally, view that organisation with animosity.
I have some very good neighbours who happen to be members of the OO.
Hence, I tend to keep am open mind.
However, I have also experienced bigotry from members of the OO in Northern Ireland - hence I sympathise with the people of Ardoyne, (and any other trouble spots in Northern Ireland) when certain lodges get up to the same antics, year after year.

The Orange Order needs to control these lodges. Until they do, then people will continue to resent their antics, and unfortunately, moderates will continue to feel misunderstood, and unwanted.

tl:dr:
If the Orange order want respect, they need to show respect, by curtailing the antics of the troublemakers in their midst, and negotiating a path that is acceptable to all of the people who live on this Island.

Fact is folks, I don't care what version of the imaginary man in the sky people wish to worship, what I do care about is the tolerance of institutional bigotry based on who you worship.
What governments need to be doing is prosecuting anybody with an organisational mandate to promote that bigotry, instead of giving into misguided political-correctness.
We are either secular states or we are not.
Britian can not claim to be a secular state when the crown heads up, protects and promotes one faith(CoE). Relinguishing that would be a start and would give the likes of the OO nowhere to hide. The banning of marching and parading bigotry here would help too, as we divest ourselves of the RC influence. Anybody who wants to stay in those organisations should then expect to face the full force of the law when you publically express bigotry.

Noreen1

billybudd wrote: »

Why should they be allowed to do this? why should loayalty to a foreign kingdom be allowed to be on show to an independent state? even without all the history between our two states why would this be something that is tolerated or allowed?

Because the Orange Order is a worldwide organisation - and one that does not cause the kind of bulls*** that we see in Northern Ireland year after year, anywhere in the World, except Northern Ireland, and Scotland.

Take a look at the US qualification criteria:
http://www.orangeusa.org/USA%20Qualifications.htm

Very different to the trash you read on their site in Northern Ireland.

I'd be a bit concerned about the American orders insistence on state schools, but, on reflection, it's no different to what secularists in this Country want.

The sectarian waffle we see here is not a Worldwide thing - and, if the 12th parade in Donegal is anything to go by - it's not an Irish thing, either.
By the way - my OO neighbours consider themselves Irish, and will happily condemn the wrongs done to the Irish people.

So, don't judge every member by the antics of the freakshow that is certain lodges in Northern Ireland.

Noreen1

Border-Rat wrote: »

Virgin Mary statue prepared for burning and a threat to a (Protestant) Sunday World reporter.

Nice clear picture there. Could be used for identification.

woodoo

alastair wrote: »

You've put the cart before the horse. They don't consider themselves not Irish because they're living in the UK - they're more than aware that nationalists in NI consider themselves Irish. NI is part of the UK - that much is obvious to all. Ulstermen consider themselves British rather than Irish - not because they're living in the UK, but because they share a common British heritage.

What exactly is a British heritage. Is it Scottish or English or Welsh or are they all three??

If its Scottish then why not say Scottish, if its English then say English. What is a British identity. Its bull s**t. They are Irish but they have allegiance to the UK that is all.

I have a Norwegian surname, my ancestors may have come here at the same time as the planters. I'm still Irish though. I don't even consider myself part Norwegian.

true

woodoo wrote: »

If its Scottish then why not say Scottish, if its English then say English. What is a British identity. Its bull s**t. They are Irish but they have allegiance to the UK that is all.

.People from the Canary islands are also Spanish ( although Morocco is closer ).

Sicilians are also Italian.