orange provocation

Nodin

true wrote: »

.People from the Canary islands are also Spanish ( although Morocco is closer ).

Sicilians are also Italian.

Again - whats your opinion of the scene described and shown in the OP, outside the church

Richard Hillman

The Orange Order got what they wanted out of the church incident. They used it to rile the nationalist/republican community up. It was also a moment to say to the nationalist/republican community that they can do what they want and have their sectarian marches where they want because they feel superior.

The nationalist/republican community got what they wanted as it was another opportunity to take part in their favourite pastimes, rioting and complaining. It gave them a great opportunity to tell everybody about how the world is against them and those big nasty protestants have it in for them.


Result: Win-Win

true

Nodin wrote: »

Again - whats your opinion of the scene described and shown in the OP, outside the church

as said earlier I do no condone it, but a loyalist band - one band - which stoped in the street at a catholic church to sing a beach boys copy song and to have a little march is not what Id do, not what I would go and watch. No extremely serious crime was committed and nobody was killed, and I would not tar all of the hundreds of thousands of people who enjoy the 12th with the actions of a dozen or so people in one incident.

There has been a lot worse happen.

billybudd

Noreen1 wrote: »

Because the Orange Order is a worldwide organisation - and one that does not cause the kind of bulls*** that we see in Northern Ireland year after year, anywhere in the World, except Northern Ireland, and Scotland.

Take a look at the US qualification criteria:
http://www.orangeusa.org/USA%20Qualifications.htm

Very different to the trash you read on their site in Northern Ireland.

I'd be a bit concerned about the American orders insistence on state schools, but, on reflection, it's no different to what secularists in this Country want.

The sectarian waffle we see here is not a Worldwide thing - and, if the 12th parade in Donegal is anything to go by - it's not an Irish thing, either.
By the way - my OO neighbours consider themselves Irish, and will happily condemn the wrongs done to the Irish people.

So, don't judge every member by the antics of the freakshow that is certain lodges in Northern Ireland.

I am sorry but william of orange is not symbol of the protestant religion, he is a symbol of war and in this case it is the battle of the boyne and from an Irish context that war was about being released from sectarian and etnic rule and to have rights to own land and have rights to hold office as a catholic and to one day self govern as an independent state.

Also you can be proud to be Irish and be protestant without the need to join and be part of an order that celebrates from its earliest onset sectarian and bigotry behaviour.

If it is a orange order lodge then the clue is in the name, orange=william of orange, a Dutch man who came to Ireland to preserve the right to treat Irish nationlists as second rate citizens with no rights.

I include RC & COI as Irish nationals btw.

Nodin

true wrote: »

as said earlier I do no condone it, .

O thats very big of you, not condoning it.

true wrote: »

but a loyalist band - one band - which stoped in the street at a catholic church to sing a beach boys copy song and to have a little march is not what Id do, not what I would go and watch.
.

Not that you'd belittle and trivialise the whole thing.

billybudd

Richard Hillman wrote: »

The Orange Order got what they wanted out of the church incident. They used it to rile the nationalist/republican community up. It was also a moment to say to the nationalist/republican community that they can do what they want and have their sectarian marches where they want because they feel superior.

The nationalist/republican community got what they wanted as it was another opportunity to take part in their favourite pastimes, rioting and complaining. It gave them a great opportunity to tell everybody about how the world is against them and those big nasty protestants have it in for them.


Result: Win-Win

Was there this sort of behaviour a few weeks ago when bunting was around ulster on display in celebration of the queens jubilee? did nationalists use it as an excuse to riot or moan? no and no.

Sometimes there is just cause and this is sometimes.

Fratton Fred

TommyPolack wrote: »

Going further it is one man game - Rothschild.
Coming back to the subject. I was answering question about who invaded who and what are Brits celebrating on the 12th.
Protestants invaded Catholic nation, they won and now in NI, during the celebration of the victory, Brits burn catholic nation’s flags.
Simple.- pure sactarianism

That's actually way off the mark tbh.

Galwayguy35

Fratton Fred wrote: »

That's actually way off the mark tbh.

Nope, sounds just about right to me.

alastair

Noreen1 wrote: »

Nationalists and Unionists are different ethnic groups

Away up the road with that nonsense.

alastair

billybudd wrote: »

In the eyes of some unionists nationalists are not even human....and therein lies the problem.

It's all so simple eh?

billybudd wrote: »

Your being very passive agressive in this thread with your answers and refusal to see the blatant bigoty the OO file and rank have.

I've no problem identifying the bigotry at play - I've said as much - but that's a far cry from racism - where both parties are from the same racial and ethnic group - the difference is purely religious and political.

alastair

Happyman42 wrote: »

Britian can not claim to be a secular state when the crown heads up, protects and promotes one faith(CoE). Relinguishing that would be a start and would give the likes of the OO nowhere to hide. The banning of marching and parading bigotry here would help too, as we divest ourselves of the RC influence. Anybody who wants to stay in those organisations should then expect to face the full force of the law when you publically express bigotry.

Bigotry isn't a crime. It certainly shouldn't be a crime in any secular state - and since when has the British monarch had any sway in the constitutional democracy that forms the UK state? She's defender of the faith in a couple of other pretty obviously secular states too - Canada being a case in point.

alastair

billybudd wrote: »

I am sorry but william of orange is not symbol of the protestant religion

Well actually... he is a pretty clear symbol of one part of British Protestantism.

Happyman42

alastair wrote: »

Bigotry isn't a crime.

It is when it incites hate.

It certainly shouldn't be a crime in any secular state - and since when has the British monarch had any sway in the constitutional democracy that forms the UK state? She's defender of the faith in a couple of other pretty obviously secular states too - Canada being a case in point.

Who said the monarch did?
The OO give their allegiance to the Monarch.

kevmol88

So a loyalist band stopped at a catholic church to sing the famine song and to have a little march. I wonder how many of them are descendants of these people.

The Williamite forces, composed of British, Dutch and Danish armies as well as troops raised in Ulster, ended Jacobite resistance by 1691, confirming the Protestant monopoly on power in Ireland. Their victories at Derry, the Boyne and Aughrim are still commemorated by the Orange Order into the 21st century.

Finally, another major influx of Scots into northern Ireland occurred in the late 1690s, when tens of thousands of people fled a famine in Scotland to come to Ulster

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulster_Scots_people

alastair

Happyman42 wrote: »

It is when it incites hate.

Well that's a different matter - incitement isn't bigotry.

Happyman42 wrote: »

Who said the monarch did?
The OO give their allegiance to the Monarch.

And you have a problem with that for some reason? Every priest in this country give their allegiance to a nice German man in Rome. The country rolls on regardless.

Happyman42

alastair wrote: »

Well that's a different matter - incitement isn't bigotry.

Everytime the OO take their bigotry onto the streets, that's incitement, plain and simple.
Ordinary decent protestants and Unionists can see that clearly now. That is why membership is below 30,000 and falling, from highs of 100,000 to 150,000. The bigots will usher the end.

And you have a problem with that for some reason? Every priest in this country give their allegiance to a nice German man in Rome. The country rolls on regardless.

More whataboutery.
The issue is the OO hiding behind the skirts of the head of state of the UK.

alastair

Happyman42 wrote: »

Everytime the OO take their bigotry onto the streets, that's incitement, plain and simple.

No it's not. The vast majority of OO parades are a celebration of a bigoted sensibility, but they clearly don't incite. Public bigotry still isn't a crime, I'm afraid.

Happyman42 wrote: »

More whataboutery.
The issue is the OO hiding behind the skirts of the head of state of the UK.

An 'issue' of your imagination. The monarchy, let alone the UK state, couldn't give two hoots about the Orange Order's oaths etc. And are you claiming that Canada isn't a secular representative democracy?

Fratton Fred

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Nope, sounds just about right to me.

At what point was the battle of the boyne about protestants invading a catholic nation?

You've obviously missed the part where the Pope was backing William of Orange as well.

billybudd

alastair wrote: »

Well actually... he is a pretty clear symbol of one part of British Protestantism.

Not in anyway, shape or form, adopted yes but a symbol? no, but i can understand a person with certain views being confused about it.

alastair

billybudd wrote: »

Not in anyway, shape or form, adopted yes but a symbol? no, but i can understand a person with certain views being confused about it.

You certainly are. Have you paid any attention to your flag recently?

billybudd

alastair wrote: »

You certainly are. Have you paid any attention to your flag recently?

Yes certainly, a small group of French women sympathetic to our plight gave it to us and we adopted it and with good intentions set the orange part as a hand of peace towards people loyal to WOO (were tolerant that way) and look where it got us? still dont see how WOO is a symbol of the protestant religion? care to elaborate?

alastair

billybudd wrote: »

Yes certainly, a small group of French women sympathetic to our plight gave it to us and we adopted it and with good intentions set the orange part as a hand of peace towards people loyal to WOO and look where it got us? still dont see how WOO is a symbol of the protestant religion? care to elaborate?

But nothing to suggest the religious symbolism of William of Orange at play there. Riiight.

The white in the centre signifies a lasting truce between the Orange and the Green, and I trust that beneath its folds the hands of the Irish Protestant and the Irish Catholic may be clasped in generous and heroic brotherhood.

Thomas Francis Meagher
April 15th 1848

billybudd

alastair wrote: »

But nothing to suggest the religious symbolism of William of Orange at play there. Riiight.

No, so Gerry Adams is a symbol of being roman catholic?

alastair

billybudd wrote: »

No, so Gerry Adams is a symbol of being roman catholic?

Has he got a colour obviously identified with him? No he doesn't. Is he represented on any flags? No he isn't. He's a symbol of Irish Republicanism, but a fairly watery one at that.

William of Orange, Orangism, Orange are all commonly understood symbols of a particular strand of British Protestant heritage. That's how we ended up with that symbolism on our flag.

billybudd

alastair wrote: »

Has he got a colour obviously identified with him? No he doesn't. Is he represented on any flags? No he isn't. He's a symbol of Irish Republicanism, but a fairly watery one at that.

William of Orange, Orangism, Orange are all commonly understood symbols of a particular strand of British Protestant heritage. That's how we ended up with that symbolism on our flag.

Dont get so angry.

His symbol is green, nationalist/republican. watery? in what way? how was his ideolgy on war different to WOO?

WOO is identifiable with British protestant heritage but is in no way a symbol of it, it is a religion and what proper religion has bigoty towards another religion?

alastair

billybudd wrote: »

Dont get so angry.

His symbol is green, nationalist/republican. watery? in what way? how was his ideolgy on war different to WOO?

WOO is identifiable with British protestant heritage but is in no way a symbol of it, it is a religion and what proper religion has bigoty towards another religion?

I'm not remotely angry.

Gerry Adams' symbol is green? Nope - he's appropriated a colour associated with Ireland and Nationalism - whereas The House of Orange provided a symbolic colour for Protestantism. You get the distinction? That's the difference between the quality of symbolism - WOO is Coke, Gerry is Roller Cola.

As regards 'proper' religion - I'm at a loss as to what you're trying to say. When we adopted the tricolour as our national flag, the significance of orange was clear to all.

Noreen1

alastair wrote: »

Away up the road with that nonsense.

Eh:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ethnic

   [eth-nik] Show IPA
adjective 1. pertaining to or characteristic of a people, especially a group (ethnic group) sharing a common and distinctive culture, religion, language, or the like.

2. referring to the origin, classification, characteristics, etc., of such groups.

3. being a member of an ethnic group, especially of a group that is a minority within a larger society: ethnic Chinese in San Francisco.

4. of, pertaining to, or characteristic of members of such a group.

5. belonging to or deriving from the cultural, racial, religious, or linguistic traditions of a people or country: ethnic dances.

alastair

Noreen1 wrote: »

Eh:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ethnic

Heh. I note you felt 'ethnic dances' watered down your position somewhat. All the pasty-faced indigenous residents of NI are from the same ethnic melting pot. There's no racism at play outside that church - just common or garden sectarianism.

Happyman42

alastair wrote: »

No it's not. The vast majority of OO parades are a celebration of a bigoted sensibility, but they clearly don't incite. Public bigotry still isn't a crime, I'm afraid.

When it incites it is.
Keep up the pathetic game you are playing, admitting the crime doesn't diminish it. Decent people and decent societies will keep going after bigots no matter where they hide.
30,000 left and falling. Probably a good deal more gone after the little stunt outside the church.

An 'issue' of your imagination. The monarchy, let alone the UK state, couldn't give two hoots about the Orange Order's oaths etc. And are you claiming that Canada isn't a secular representative democracy?

Why do you keep up with the whataboutery when you don't want to address the issues?

billybudd

alastair wrote: »

I'm not remotely angry.

Gerry Adams' symbol is green? Nope - he's appropriated a colour associated with Ireland and Nationalism - whereas The House of Orange provided a symbolic colour for Protestantism. You get the distinction? That's the difference between the quality of symbolism - WOO is Coke, Gerry is Roller Cola.

As regards 'proper' religion - I'm at a loss as to what you're trying to say. When we adopted the tricolour as our national flag, the significance of orange was clear to all.

Yes again passive agressive, WOO the more branded more respectable coke while poor gerry is the inferior roller cola. nice!

Interesting that there is no orange in the union jack but the RC religion is represented by the flag of st.patrick, its absolute tripe to adopt the color orange as a symbol of being protestant quite ludricrous really, but carry on i am enjoying laughing at you.