Keep Calm And Discuss Retro Generally!

The Last Bandit

The Last Bandit wrote: »

And just when people start liking Sony (or at least fond memories of the PS2), they go and do this...

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-01-03-sony-patents-tech-to-block-use-of-second-hand-games

Oh for f**ck's sake. It's a second storage volume on the actual physical disc itself. That means that regardless of whether you're online or not, any disc is locked to your machine, kind of like what happens when you put a new sim card into a new phone. If you need to unlock it, you have to PAY the service provider to let you switch it to a different phone.

Sony's new way of getting their cut out of the resale market. Not so much banning second hand games, but rather charging users a fee to unlock discs registered on other consoles.

Seriously, are they just trying to purposely annoy anonymous now?

o1s1n

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

TBH, I do think some sort of second-hand block is necessary. But a temporary one, on newer titles that are still commercially viable / in-print. The ridiculous Gamestop racket needs to be halted - taking money away from publishers & developers, while actually negatively effecting the games themselves through superfluous, bloated content aimed at persuading players not to trade in.

I can understand the frustration - however, there is a flip side to it. The stupidly expensive price of new games.

You do have a bit of a chicken and an egg scenario. Are games expensive because they sell less copies due to the second hand market? Or were they more expensive to begin with, creating the need for a second hand market?

When it comes down to it though, if I buy a game and pay good money for it, it is my property. If I wish to sell it on, I should be able to do so.

Then there is also the hippy side - second hand markets mean less plastic for discs, less plastic for boxes, less paper for covers, less ink to print out all those glossy labels. I'm far more in favour of this than the factories kicking into overdrive to needlessly supply every person with a brand new game.

The Last Bandit

They have to do something to appease the publishers who are getting screwed by the 'new' secondhand sales. Was in Gamestop earlier today and loads of used but recently new titles for 54.99 whereas the new version is 59.99 - and there is no way they're making near 54 on a new sale.

You sure MS are working on similar ideas, gods knows what Nintendo are at. But you can be sure is the end users i.e. 'us' that'll lose out.

Now, if this Sony scheme has a 6 month or a years expiry on it I could live with that.

Myrddin

The Last Bandit wrote: »

Now, if this Sony scheme has a 6 month or a years expiry on it I could live with that.

But that'd make sense & be reasonable...we're talking about Sony here

o1s1n

o1s1n wrote: »

I can understand the frustration - however, there is a flip side to it. The stupidly expensive price of new games.

I'll probably get grief for this, but i actually don't think around €40-50 is a lot to pay for a new game, if it's well developed and has some replay value in it, considering the enjoyment i get out of it.

Last time i went to the cinema, a ticket for 2 hours of passive entertainment cost me around a tenner. The last full price new release game i played cost me five times that, but has probably delivered 80+ hours of fun and immersion so far, between it's campaign and online modes.

Granted, €50 is a lot to pay if a game's crap, but there are any amount of review sites online to tell you that before you fork out for it, so there's no excuse for falling into that trap. I think if you're smart with your purchases and shop around, gaming offers a lot of good value.

The Last Bandit wrote: »

...if this Sony scheme has a 6 month or a years expiry on it I could live with that.

Realistically though, you know it's gonna span a console generation or more. It'll be about maintaining current revenue streams and not harming sales of new games for which the platform is still on sale. If this happens, I'd say if you buy a second hand game for any current gen machine, you'll be asked to pay for a code to unlock the disc on your machine before you can play it.

Retr0gamer

As I mentioned in the thread on the games forum I read somewhere recently that only 10% of all games sales are second hand. If it goes ahead it's just the execs trying to scrimp and save as many pennies as the can from the consumer.

Also I'm pretty sure that this is totally illegal in both the US and EU. In the US and EU copyright law states that once you buy a piece of copyrighted material you are free to sell it how you please and also, the important part, the copyright holder has no right to profit from the sale of this software.

CiDeRmAn

Looks like I won't be buying a PS4 until this particular measure is hacked into oblivion.
Sony can stick this one up their jacksy.

That said, I buy far fewer PS3 games preowned than I do by just waiting for the stuff to drop in price, paying sensible money for a game later on.
Besides, the preowned price of a relatively new title seems to be a large proportion of the rrp anyways, particularly in Gamestop, so I don't tend to bother.

Is €50 worth paying for a game, sometimes it is, but more often than not, no.
There seems to be no contract with the manufacturers that the game we get for our cash is a good one, even objectively so, given that someone may not like a game but that is individual taste rather than a reflection on the game itself.
No, a games publisher can sell us half baked, unfinished derivative tripe, charge €50 for the privilege and laugh all the way to the bank.
Isn't that theft?

I tells ya, there should have been a class action suit against Sony for Haze, against Lucasarts for Fracture and against THQ from almost everything!

Myrddin

Deleted User wrote: »

I'll probably get grief for this, but i actually don't think around €40-50 is a lot to pay for a new game

Well its not, provided the game is worth it. Then you've usually day 1 DLC to contend with pushing up prices to stupid levels for stuff that simply isn't worth it

o1s1n

That's it, all depends on the game. If something is clearly going to give a lot of value for money (Dark Souls/Fallout 3 etc) then I'll pay full price. This is pretty rare though and most games I've played from this gen have not offered what you would consider a 'lengthy' experience.

Nintendo are some of the worst for it. I paid 45 euro for Starfox 64 3D. 45 euro! Ah, that still makes me feel like a total chump

Retr0gamer

I was the one running into town every friday to get the latest game. Now I've no job/research grant I can't afford to do that anymore. I buy all my games online now and even still I will never buy a second hand game unless absolutely necessary since I can always find a game new cheaper than any second hand option. It's a pity Gamestop are so dominant because if they had online prices in the high street then this wouldn't be a problem.

CiDeRmAn

I'm strongly considering trading in some of my 3DS games as many aren't getting played.
I don't really want to but, for the more common titles, it might be a good idea, the likes of Kid Icarus, Zelda and the aforementioned Star Fox 3D are worth good money on trade and will be easily replaced later.
I will probably hang onto Mario Kart 7, even though it has been barely played!
That was a day one, run off to the mall to buy, kinda game.
Don't know why they get so little play, I suppose ones free time is underpressure, gaming kinda has to be planned while more casual pursuits end up soaking up an awful lot of time, spent 2 hours on Sudoku the other day!

Retr0gamer

I'd hang on to the nintendo games. Unless the game bombs nintendo don'tdo credit deals with stores to discount excess stock so you have stuff like DKC Returns, NSMB Wii and Mario Kart Wii still going for 55 euros in stores.

CiDeRmAn

Bugger!
Keep them so.
I still have games I got last year before Christmas that have yet to be played.
I have yet to pick up Ridge Racer Unbounded, Forza Horizon, the new NFS game that doesn't suck like the last one, I have to get Dishonored, Skyrim, ye gods, so much to play!

The Last Bandit

Its the FPS fans you'd feel sorry for particularly those who avoid the multiplayer tat. €60 for 6 or 7 hours single player vs 1 gazillion hours in Skyrim

CiDeRmAn

I know, I waited and bought MW3 and BF3 for smaller money, around €30 each, but still felt short changed with only a few hours of gameplay a piece.
Of the two I preferred BF3 but I'll never buy a Gunw@nk game again at anywhere close to the full price.
Felt really bad when I was popped into the damn passenger seat of the jet in BF3, WTF!!!

johnny_ultimate

Would rather a ambitious, well-paced and engaging six hour campaign over one hundred hours of repetitive padding (*coughskyrimcough*), even at full price. But I'm crazy like that. I love a good, complex RPG as much as the next retro nerd, but I do not for a second agree that sheer bulk of content = value for money. That attitude is the reason why second hand bins are littered with interesting titles like Enslaved, Mirror's Edge or - back in the day - Beyond Good & Evil and PoP: Sands of Time. Couldn't count the amount of otherwise excellent games that have been severely compromised by bulk bulk bulk (Assassins Creed 3 being a particularly infuriating example recently).

Also: the solution to all problems - buy less **** games :P

o1s1n

I'm glad people like you exist Johnny_Ultimate - it means the rest of us can sit back and buy loads of bargains while you spend all your cash on a hand full of games

johnny_ultimate

o1s1n wrote: »

I'm glad people like you exist Johnny_Ultimate - it means the rest of us can sit back and buy loads of bargains while you spend all your cash on a hand full of games

I don't buy many full-price titles at all, a handful a year alongside the many, many discounted titles - I'm broke and prices fall so quickly these days it'd be crazy to buy every game at RRP. I enjoy a bargain just as much as the next gamer (what's that, there's a Steam sale on? :pac:), but will always buy new, if not necessarily at full price.

I just really think the frequently cited "more content -> better games -> worth more money" argument which I see around a lot actually makes for genuinely worse games.

o1s1n

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

I just really think the frequently cited "more content -> better games -> worth more money" argument which I see around a lot actually makes for genuinely worse games.

A long game doesn't mean bloat though, Fallout 3 and Dark Souls gave me a good 100+ hours and none of it ever felt like bloat.

I do get what you mean about having great short games. It's needed too. However, I cant justify 40-50 on something I'm not going to get very long out of, therefore usually wait until it comes down in price.

The games I spend most on, arcade hardware, I will literally play over and over again until they craps out on me. They are eternal. Best value for money ever :pac:

johnny_ultimate

I don't for a second disagree that some games need to be long, with complex systems and epic stories. But only the best justify that. There's tonnes of others I've felt would have been better if they had been edited down better. Dishonoured is a good example - one of the best high-profile games of last year, but would have been even better had the last few frustrating hours been pared down in an otherwise admirably lean and beautifully realised campaign.

A game should be as long as it needs to be. I spent around fifteen euro for two hours of Journey, forty euro for fifty hours of Dark Souls. I loved them both, and think they both completely justified their price tags even though Dark Souls technically offered a good ten times the gameplay per euro. I don't really believe there's a magic number of hours of play every developer should strive for - enough to develop the mechanics or story sufficiently. That could be ten minutes worth (pick up Thirty Flights of Loving before the Steam sale ends - its fantastic), could be 200 hours!

That said, yes I do think there is cause for caution when approaching a full priced game. Only the best justify it, or companies like Rising Star who release über niche titles (and happily tend to budget price the ). I paid around a tenner for Sega's Binary Domain recently, although would have felt hard done by had I paid much more - less than ten hours of decent but not great gameplay. Luckily, it's only the CoD or Nintendo titles that don't get heavily discounted quickly these days.

Myrddin

Buying games for full whack is for shmucks. They fall in price so quickly now that its just madness not to wait the six or eight weeks it normally takes for the game to appear on shelves for sometimes less than half price.

Doom 3 BFG Edition, although out some time now, is £12 brand new on Amazon. Not so long ago it was €55. Madness

o1s1n

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

I spent around fifteen euro for two hours of Journey, forty euro for fifty hours of Dark Souls. I loved them both, and think they both completely justified their price tags even though Dark Souls technically offered a good ten times the gameplay per euro. I don't really believe there's a magic number of hours of play every developer should strive for - enough to develop the mechanics or story sufficiently. That could be ten minutes worth (pick up Thirty Flights of Loving before the Steam sale ends - its fantastic), could be 200 hours!

So on that note, would you have paid 40-50 for Journey?

Myrddin

Also Kid Icarus Uprising is €35 used in Smyths, but €25 brand new in the same store including the 3DS stand.

o1s1n

EnterNow wrote: »

Also Kid Icarus Uprising is €35 used in Smyths, but €25 brand new in the same store including the 3DS stand.

Serious? HAH! just goes to show, sometimes it's a good idea to look at the new shelf too.

Come to think of it, I don't think I've ever bought a second hand 3DS game. Costing me a fortune so the things are.

Myrddin

o1s1n wrote: »

Serious? HAH! just goes to show, sometimes it's a good idea to look at the new shelf too.

Come to think of it, I don't think I've ever bought a second hand 3DS game. Costing me a fortune so the things are.

Yep, a 'big box' edition with the 3DS stand is listed as €25..but in the used carts bin there's a few of them in standard cases for €35. Is it just pure greed on the part of management or a case of the left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing?

Retr0gamer

o1s1n wrote: »

So on that note, would you have paid 40-50 for Journey?

Well I was wary about paying the asking price for Journey but having played it I would say yes.

To be honest my backlog is so full of bloated RPGs that it's sometimes nice to break out something like Spec Ops and blast through it over a weekend. I'm beginning to really appreciate short games. Even better is when you get a short RPG like Mother 3 or Panzer Dragoon Saga that has more and better story and content by leaving out pointless fetch quests than most RPGs present in 50-100 hours but can be beaten in 20.

Then again I loved Xenoblade and Etrian Odyssey which were both incredibly long RPGs full of sidequests and exploration

o1s1n

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Well I was wary about paying the asking price for Journey but having played it I would say yes.

Yeah but we all know you're mental :pac:

Retr0gamer wrote: »

To be honest my backlog is so full of bloated RPGs that it's sometimes nice to break out something like Spec Ops and blast through it over a weekend. I'm beginning to really appreciate short games. Even better is when you get a short RPG like Mother 3 or Panzer Dragoon Saga that has more and better story and content by leaving out pointless fetch quests than most RPGs present in 50-100 hours but can be beaten in 20.

Then again I loved Xenoblade and Etrian Odyssey which were both incredibly long RPGs full of sidequests and exploration

PDS, pretty sure that took me less than 12 hours. Yet I immediately went out and bought a copy for about twice the price of a new release. That's a special one though

Jack burton

Anyone ever watch game sack, its actually pretty good!

http://www.youtube.com/user/MrGameSack?feature=watch

johnny_ultimate

o1s1n wrote: »

So on that note, would you have paid 40-50 for Journey?

If it was the only way to legitimately own a copy? Maybe in that hypothetical circumstance, given that its been several generations since anyone has charged that much for a ninety minute game (CoD Declassified notwitstanding ). Certainly think the 30 euro collectors edition from the States would be a bargain if the digital version didn't exist. I'd rather spend 50 euro on Journey than Skyrim, truth be told. Although I don't think Journey is a game that would even exist without the exciting opportunities for smaller, alternative games offered by digital distribution, but that's another discussion

CathalDublin

Nice little kick starter here
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/872297630/gamestick-the-most-portable-tv-games-console-ever