RaboDirectPro12 2012/13 General Discussion (with transfers/season preview)

CIARAN_BOYLE

Zebre

matthew8 wrote: »

Cardiff played at home to the Ospreys in front of 36k in the Millennium Stadium too, which explains their large increase.

very good point. It was a double header with Dragons vs Scarlets which makes the small Dragons increase look worrying.

jamiedav2011

errlloyd wrote: »

Wow, with 11 home games and at least one more to come, you're looking at an Ulster team who are selling 30,000 more league tickets than they did last year, as well as countless pints and jerseys. Unless they're putting a lot more into promotion than last year that is a real increase in club income surely?

Even leinster are doing quite well. I'd figured we'd almost reached saturation, and our season hasn't exactly been brilliant

I think there's a huge opportunity for Leinster, don't think we're anywhere near possible saturation.

With only one pro team in the city, and feck all of a competition at the time of the year rugby is on (Dubs GAA would be main competition), there's a massive opportunity.

When you look at the likes of a Blackburn, Wigan, Reading, Stoke, or even a Sunderland or Newcastle in the PL, or many of the NFL teams, there's a huge opportunity for Leinster to increase and sustain a big attendance. It's a stepped process, but can be done.

jamiedav2011

Riskymove wrote: »

yes its like an extra 1.5 home games

Munster's also skewed downwards due to 4 games in Musgrave

Did any of those fill?

Podge_irl

Zebre

Leinster are the only pro sports team in Dublin of any note. They are not even close to saturation.

errlloyd

Zebre

jamiedav2011 wrote: »

I think there's a huge opportunity for Leinster, don't think we're anywhere near possible saturation.

With only one pro team in the city, and feck all of a competition at the time of the year rugby is on (Dubs GAA would be main competition), there's a massive opportunity.

There are a lot of sports fans in this city, we're still struggling for rugby fans in the city. I appreciate your analysis shows the potential, but not quite the true amount. I think we're nearing saturation because we can't fill the Aviva for the fever game. When we start doing that regularly and easily I'll be more confident.

thomond2006

Zebre

jamiedav2011 wrote: »

Did any of those fill?

No

jamiedav2011

errlloyd wrote: »

There are a lot of sports fans in this city, we're still struggling for rugby fans in the city. I appreciate your analysis shows the potential, but not quite the true amount. I think we're nearing saturation because we can't fill the Aviva for the fever game. When we start doing that regularly and easily I'll be more confident.

Not filling a 51k stadium is hardly an indication of nearing saturation!

Being a sports fan and a rugby fan isn't mutually exclusive, if Leinster keep winning and entertaining, and the marketing team keep doing their thing, and we keep infiltrating non traditional areas, there's a huge opportunity.

Better facilities and an improvement in the Rabo would make a huge difference.

Podge_irl

Zebre

errlloyd wrote: »

There are a lot of sports fans in this city, we're still struggling for rugby fans in the city. I appreciate your analysis shows the potential, but not quite the true amount. I think we're nearing saturation because we can't fill the Aviva for the fever game. When we start doing that regularly and easily I'll be more confident.

We're not filling it, but we're getting 45,000 in for it and the one HEC game. Its a long way from 1500 at the Brook. Rugby has grown substantially over the last few years in Dublin I think, and just from a completely unscientific sampling of people in non-traditional areas its making inroads there too. I don't think we're going to outgrow the RDS anytime soon, but I'd like to think the expansion up to more like 23,000 is needed and fillable.

Annoyingly however, I think that growth is inexorably linked with the game in Scotland and Wales. The Rabo has to be seen to be a competition of note with good teams in it and relevant to the man on the street. Still, again I think that is improving (with the notable caveat of the game in Wales) and I would never have expected Leinster to get 12,000 people in in the middle of the 6N which I think they were doing.

jamiedav2011

thomond2006 wrote: »

No

So it's hardly 'skewed downwards' by that much then is it? The attendance at Thomond and Musgrave this year must be worrying.

errlloyd

Zebre

Podge_irl wrote: »

I don't think we're going to outgrow the RDS anytime soon, but I'd like to think the expansion up to more like 23,000 is needed and fillable.

That's my exact opinion.

Maybe I misused the word "saturation"

CIARAN_BOYLE

Zebre

Podge_irl wrote: »

We're not filling it, but we're getting 45,000 in for it and the one HEC game. Its a long way from 1500 at the Brook. Rugby has grown substantially over the last few years in Dublin I think, and just from a completely unscientific sampling of people in non-traditional areas its making inroads there too. I don't think we're going to outgrow the RDS anytime soon, but I'd like to think the expansion up to more like 23,000 is needed and fillable.

Annoyingly however, I think that growth is inexorably linked with the game in Scotland and Wales. The Rabo has to be seen to be a competition of note with good teams in it and relevant to the man on the street. Still, again I think that is improving (with the notable caveat of the game in Wales) and I would never have expected Leinster to get 12,000 people in in the middle of the 6N which I think they were doing.

Ideal scenario for me (in 5 years time) would be to play 10 games a season in a 23,000 RDS and play Munster Ulster the biggest HEC group game and one other game each season in the Aviva.

Not doable at all, we are going to have to lock in at least the current contract in order to get any expansion in the RDS. We are not going to be able to get a bigger ground and cut the number of games.

Podge_irl

Zebre

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Ideal scenario for me (in 5 years time) would be to play 10 games a season in a 23,000 RDS and play Munster Ulster the biggest HEC group game and one other game each season in the Aviva.

Not doable at all, we are going to have to lock in at least the current contract in order to get any expansion in the RDS. We are not going to be able to get a bigger ground and cut the number of games.

From what I remember reading the RDS will only go ahead on the development if Leinster get rid of their 10-year get-out clause on the deal and lock themselves in for the full 20 (so about 16 more I think). After that I guess Lansdowne becomes feasible, but even if they could move to selling out Aviva twice and having Rabo and European play-off games there as well I'd be happy enough. Would definitely hope they'd be expanding outside the RDS a fair bit after that 20 year window though.

errlloyd

Zebre

That wouldn't be a new 20 year deal though, like its a deal we're already about 5 years into?

Apologies for going so far OT to everyone else.

CIARAN_BOYLE

Zebre

Podge_irl wrote: »

From what I remember reading the RDS will only go ahead on the development if Leinster get rid of their 10-year get-out clause on the deal and lock themselves in for the full 20 (so about 16 more I think). After that I guess Lansdowne becomes feasible, but even if they could move to selling out Aviva twice and having Rabo and European play-off games there as well I'd be happy enough. Would definitely hope they'd be expanding outside the RDS a fair bit after that 20 year window though.

I've more or less heard that too wrt the RDS.

Or more factually the RDS have these plans for expansion and zero cash. RDS are refusing point blank to borrow any money to expand. They are highly geared due to some office building during the boom and can't/wont borrow more money. RDS think that they can raise money through naming rights. All naming rights partners and potential parts want guarantees that Leinster will be there in order to talk about naming rights.

errlloyd wrote: »

That wouldn't be a new 20 year deal though, like its a deal we're already about 5 years into?

Apologies for going so far OT to everyone else.

The current 20 year deal has a zero penalty break clause after 10 years (ie 5-6 years time).

Riskymove

jamiedav2011 wrote: »

So it's hardly 'skewed downwards' by that much then is it? The attendance at Thomond and Musgrave this year must be worrying.

of course it skews it - the lowest attendance at Musgrave was around 6,000 and they usually get 7,000 or so

the lowest attendance at Thomand was around 15,000

so if those 4 games where in Thomond Munster would have an extra 30,000 or so in the figures or nearly an extra 3,000 on the average attendance figure


likewise if Leinster did not have the aviva game their average would be around 3,000 less


all of a sudden the big gap in average attendance goes away

jamiedav2011

Riskymove wrote: »

of course it skews it - the lowest attendance at Musgrave was around 6,000 and they usually get 7,000 or so

the lowest attendance at Thomand was around 15,000

so if those 4 games where in Thomond Munster would have an extra 30,000 or so in the figures or nearly an extra 3,000 on the average attendance figure


likewise if Leinster did not have the aviva game their average would be around 3,000 less


all of a sudden the big gap in average attendance goes away

But it skews it downwards only because people didn't attend, not because there wasn't space!

Now if they filled Musgrave then fine, but you can't say just because of a move to Thomond there'd be this huge jump!

ssaye

Have to say I have been in every game in the Aviva since opening at all the sports played and other than 1 or 2, they have been dour affairs.

I really miss playing Munster in the RDS.

Gate receipts must be nice but I don't really look forward to the league game in the Aviva.

Would love to mix it up and give Ulster a crack at the Aviva every second year thus not breaking any agreement with minimum games in RDS/Aviva.

Riskymove

jamiedav2011 wrote: »

But it skews it downwards only because people didn't attend, not because there wasn't space!

Now if they filled Musgrave then fine, but you can't say just because of a move to Thomond there'd be this huge jump!

yes I can

as said lowest Thomond park attendance was around 15000, there far more Thomond season ticket holders etc


if both grounds were in same City and were of similar condition then fair enough but they are not.

errlloyd

Zebre

That road between Cork and Limerick (M25?) needs a major upgrade. I'd say it'd boost Munster's numbers.

Glass Prison 1214

Riskymove wrote: »

yes I can

as said lowest Thomond park attendance was around 15000, there far more Thomond season ticket holders etc


if both grounds were in same City and were of similar condition then fair enough but they are not.

But you played your least appealing games against the weaker teams in the league at Musgrave, so imo if they had been at Thomond Park then they would be Thomond Parks lowest attended games of the season.

ssaye

Not sure where to put this potential movers probably not RABO though


http://www1.skysports.com/rugby-union/news/15177/8669016/Bryan-Habana-among-six-players-omitted-due-to-overseas-moves

who knows

"Bryan Habana, Morne Steyn and JP Pietersen have been overlooked for South Africa contracts after announcing their plans to play overseas.
Andries Bekker, Juandre Kruger and Zane Kirchner are also omitted from the 15-strong group that has been awarded Springbok contracts for 2013, due to their decision to move to foreign clubs.
SARU CEO Jurie Roux said: "All six of these players were going to receive contracts, but the fact that they have indicated that they have signed with overseas clubs or are planning to do so, has ruled them out of the reckoning."
Eben Etzebeth, Marcell Coetzee, Juan de Jongh, Pat Lambie, Jean de Villiers, Tendai Mtawarira and Bismarck du Plessis are among the players that have agreed contracts.
"We've kept as many of our top players in South Africa as we could by awarding them national contracts, despite the powerful lure of the pound, euro and yen," said Roux.
"We worked hard with the Springbok Management and Sarpa to ensure the best possible deal is placed on the table for the players. A further five contracts are still available and will be finalised in due course.
"Last year provided Heyneke Meyer with an ideal opportunity to see what is needed in the Test arena, and by contracting this group of players, we have secured a core group for 2013. The average age of the contracted group is not very high for Test rugby, which bodes well for the future."
South Africa contracts: Willem Alberts, Marcell Coetzee, Juan de Jongh, Jean de Villiers, Bismarck du Plessis, Jannie du Plessis, Eben Etzebeth, Francois Hougaard, Pat Lambie, Tendai Mtawarira, Pierre Spies, Frans Steyn, Adriaan Strauss, Flip van der Merwe, Duane Vermeulen. "

who_me

Friday evening games for Munster too don't help. Leinster & Ulster have far bigger populations within bus/taxi/walking distance of the ground, whereas Munster are more reliant on fans making the 2-3 hour Cork <-> Limerick journey, not easy through the Friday evening traffic. I haven't made a Friday evening game in Limerick for years.

Winters

Some decent attendances in round 10 just gone. Congrats to Glasgow on their attendance of 6,642.

Dragons v Munster in Rodney Parade - 7,523
Glasgow v Ospreys in Scotstoun - 6,642
Connacht v Ulster in Sportsground - 6,463
Treviso v Edinburgh in Stadio di Monigo - 3,200
Scarlets v Blues in Parc y Scarlets - 10,426
Zebre v Leinster in Stadio del Tricolore - 4,700

Podge_irl

Zebre

6k+ for both Glasgow and Connacht is great to see. Wouldn't have expected that just a few short years ago.

who_me

Winters wrote: »

Some decent attendances in round 10 just gone. Congrats to Glasgow on their attendance of 6,642.

Dragons v Munster in Rodney Parade - 7,523
Glasgow v Ospreys in Scotstoun - 6,642
Connacht v Ulster in Sportsground - 6,463
Treviso v Edinburgh in Stadio di Monigo - 3,200
Scarlets v Blues in Parc y Scarlets - 10,426
Zebre v Leinster in Stadio del Tricolore - 4,700

The Treviso result is a bit disappointing, but other than that it's quite impressive. Both Glasgow and Connacht doubling/tripling their attendances from just a few years back. Not that long ago, 6K+ would have been a strong attendance for Munster in a ML/CL game.

Zebre actually have a tidy little stadium too, probably far better than Musgrave..

bilston

Zebre

Glasgow have a real opportunity to grow IMO especially with Scottish football being in a bit of a mess. I'd be quite optimistoc about their future actually... if they can keep their top players.

decisions

Zebre

Overall I'm quite optimistic about the league in general. Glasgow have looked good all season, Connacht is coming on leaps and bounds and Treviso are no pushovers. We have the makings of a competitive league but the Welsh sides need to get their act together off the pitch.

Riskymove

Glass Prison 1214 wrote: »

But you played your least appealing games against the weaker teams in the league at Musgrave, so imo if they had been at Thomond Park then they would be Thomond Parks lowest attended games of the season.

they'd still have gotten at least double the number who showed up in Musgrave, thats my point

If Zebre got around 15000 in Thomond then so would Cardiff or Scarlets rather than the 7 or 8 thousand they got in Musgrave

Connacht got 8,000 in Musgrave this year

22,000 went to Thomond to see Connacht the year before

jacothelad

Zebre

Riskymove wrote: »

they'd still have gotten at least double the number who showed up in Musgrave, thats my point

If Zebre got around 15000 in Thomond then so would Cardiff or Scarlets rather than the 7 or 8 thousand they got in Musgrave

Connacht got 8,000 in Musgrave this year

22,000 went to Thomond to see Connacht the year before

I think it's daft playing Connacht at Musgrave. Stupid bit of business.

Hagz

Scarlets

Rory Lamont has retired.