Munster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread II

justsomebloke

A bit of luck in getting Edinburgh away in the first game. With all their new signing hopefully they will be slightly off the boil for the first game and probably won't be nearly as strong as they will be after a few weeks together

Lelantos

budhabob wrote: »

I see from the below article that Munster are set to announce if and where the single base will be, anyone know anything more about it?

http://www.breakingnews.ie/sport/rugby/munster-coaching-team-to-arrive-at-weekend-558603.html

From the article, CIT seems to be favoured.

CIT favoured by the article, can't see that being realistic, the facilities in UL are second to none imo

ormond lad

Lelantos wrote: »

CIT favoured by the article, can't see that being realistic, the facilities in UL are second to none imo

I see it as very realistic. The facilities in CIT are as good if not better than ULs.
Doesnt matter where is chosen as long as the place that will best suit Munster is chosen.
My personal preference was a new set up built somewhere in the middle of the province from scratch but this was not looked at afaik due to cost issues

Lelantos

ormond lad wrote: »

Lelantos wrote: »

CIT favoured by the article, can't see that being realistic, the facilities in UL are second to none imo

I see it as very realistic. The facilities in CIT are as good if not better than ULs.
Doesnt matter where is chosen as long as the place that will best suit Munster is chosen.
My personal preference was a new set up built somewhere in the middle of the province from scratch but this was not looked at afaik due to cost issues

I remember Shaun Payne saying the possibility of a new base was looked at, but costs ruled it out.
The Limerick lads love UL, its the logical & proper choice, but the politics of the province will come into it, more players based in cork, so there's every chance it could be CIT. And I still believe that UL is streets ahead

Amazotheamazing

ormond lad wrote: »

I see it as very realistic. The facilities in CIT are as good if not better than ULs.
Doesnt matter where is chosen as long as the place that will best suit Munster is chosen.
My personal preference was a new set up built somewhere in the middle of the province from scratch but this was not looked at afaik due to cost issues

I don't know about that, UL have really expanded their facilities again and Cavanagh was going on about some altitude training facility in Limerick? At this level it's not just weights rooms and a pitch.

ormond lad

Lelantos wrote: »

I remember Shaun Payne saying the possibility of a new base was looked at, but costs ruled it out.
The Limerick lads love UL, its the logical & proper choice, but the politics of the province will come into it, more players based in cork, so there's every chance it could be CIT. And I still believe that UL is streets ahead

UL has the 50 metre pool but CIT pitches are better. The gym is better in CIT than UL. There is more players based in Cork and with the majority of games being played in Limerick Munster may want to give something in return to Cork

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

I don't know about that, UL have really expanded their facilities again and Cavanagh was going on about some altitude training facility in Limerick? At this level it's not just weights rooms and a pitch.

UL have expanded their pitches and there is now much better pitch surfaces for training but CIT is as good.

Amazotheamazing

ormond lad wrote: »

UL has the 50 metre pool but CIT pitches are better. The gym is better in CIT than UL. There is more players based in Cork and with the majority of games being played in Limerick Munster may want to give something in return to Cork

UL have expanded their pitches and there is now much better pitch surfaces for training but CIT is as good.

There's slightly more players based in Limerick afaik, but I don't really mind as long as the facility is chosen for the best reasons.

touts

Wherever it ends up one city will get the base because they had the better facilities and it provides the best chance for the team to return to the summit of european rugby and it will be a great day in the sporting history of that city and the provence blah blah blah. The other city will have been shafted by the Munster branch who made the decision for local political reasons rather than in the best interests of the team and it will be the blackest day in the sporting history of that city and the provence blah blah blah.

It's a flip of the coin and no matter which city wins there will be hell to pay among the opposing fans, clubs, city councils etc.

Monty Burnz

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

I don't really mind as long as the facility is chosen for the best reasons.

This. +1

Podge_irl

Out of curiosity what difference does it make to anyone bar the players where the team is based. Surely as fans the only thing that matters is where the games are played?

profitius

It probably is another political decision although I read that CIT have top class facilities or will have in the near future.

The main stadium should have been in Cork city, the north side would be my choice because theres plenty of land there and it would promote rugby in the North side of the city. Cork has a much bigger population and more wealthy people. Munster are probably the only team who chose the smaller of two cities anywhere. I doubt the Welsh, South Africans, Aussies or New Zealanders did it. The main stadium in Cork and the old Thomond upgraded and that could have taken in many matches also.

Amazotheamazing

Podge_irl wrote: »

Out of curiosity what difference does it make to anyone bar the players where the team is based. Surely as fans the only thing that matters is where the games are played?

Little or no difference, imo. Some Cork people seem to view it as the end of days should Cork be overlooked though.

Monty Burnz

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Little or no difference, imo. Some Cork people seem to view it as the end of days should Cork be overlooked though.

The only difference as far as I'm concerned is that non-Limerick players would probably be happier in Cork (including those from elsewhere in the country or foreign players) as it's just a nicer city. Of course, many Limerick folks are aghast at that notion, which is why I started the infamous 'which is the worst city in Ireland' poll.

Limerick romped home in the poll.

Amazotheamazing

profitius wrote: »

It probably is another political decision although I read that CIT have top class facilities or will have in the near future.

The main stadium should have been in Cork city, the north side would be my choice because theres plenty of land there and it would promote rugby in the North side of the city. Cork has a much bigger population and more wealthy people. Munster are probably the only team who chose the smaller of two cities anywhere. I doubt the Welsh, South Africans, Aussies or New Zealanders did it. The main stadium in Cork and the old Thomond upgraded and that could have taken in many matches also.

Tbf, it makes little or no sense to move away from the rugby heartland of a place in the hope you manage to attract a new customer base in a place which has never shown much interest in rugby. Like it or not, rugby isn't all that popular in Cork as the number of clubs testify. The three heartlands of rugby in Ireland are Belfast, South Dublin and Limerick, clubs-wise. You have to work with what you already have, first and foremost.

Munster should work really hard at promoting rugby in Cork and Waterford but you don't neglect the roots in order to do so.

Amazotheamazing

Monty Burnz wrote: »

The only difference as far as I'm concerned is that non-Limerick players would probably be happier in Cork (including those from elsewhere in the country or foreign players) as it's just a nicer city. Of course, many Limerick folks are aghast at that notion, which is why I started the infamous 'which is the worst city in Ireland' poll.

Limerick romped home in the poll.

Roy Keane had the same discussion about players moving to Sunderland. If people want to play pro sports they'll go wherever their team wants them.

In general the foreign players have been divided between the two bases, with the SA players based in Limerick and the NZ players based in Cork.

Monty Burnz

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

If people want to play pro sports they'll go wherever their team wants them.

Right, but if you've a choice between - say - Sunderland or West Ham, and they play at the same level and offer you similar money, your preference for a nicer city might sway you.

(obviously Cork is London in this example...*cough*)

Amazotheamazing

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Right, but if you've a choice between - say - Sunderland or West Ham, and they play at the same level and offer you similar money, your preference for a nicer city might sway you.

(obviously Cork is London in this example...*cough*)

Not sure if you're looking for a reaction. People will live where they want to live but it makes sense that most of tight five live in Limerick as that's where most of them are from, you'd expect a new prop (for example) to see that and move there.

And tbf, it's not like Foley, O'Connell, O'Donovan etc are going to stop living in North Munster if training is in Cork. Hell, Stander could live on the Blaskets for all I care as long as he does the business on the pitch.

Cork is a fine place, but let's not pretend it's much different/better/worse than Limerick at the end of the day and vice versa.

Monty Burnz

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Not sure if you're looking for a reaction

No, just commenting on the issue. The good of the team is the ultimate arbiter here, and if a single base in Limerick is the choice I'm fine with that.

thomond2006

Podge_irl wrote: »

Out of curiosity what difference does it make to anyone bar the players where the team is based. Surely as fans the only thing that matters is where the games are played?

I won't be able to post the teams here during the week anymore if the team train in Cork. :pac:

profitius

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Tbf, it makes little or no sense to move away from the rugby heartland of a place in the hope you manage to attract a new customer base in a place which has never shown much interest in rugby. Like it or not, rugby isn't all that popular in Cork as the number of clubs testify. The three heartlands of rugby in Ireland are Belfast, South Dublin and Limerick, clubs-wise. You have to work with what you already have, first and foremost.

Munster should work really hard at promoting rugby in Cork and Waterford but you don't neglect the roots in order to do so.

It makes sense in terms of numbers. Remember that rugby is popular in parts of Cork too. Overall its more popular in Limerick but in terms of numbers I bet the number of rugby fans in Cork and Limerick are closer than people think.

Cork has also the most potential to grow also. I'm not being biased here I'm just looking at the numbers that stand out.

Places where theres never been much interest in rugby are the places rugby should be targeting. Munsters success in the last decade has uncovered a new generation of fans (including myself) who didn't know much about the game before the year 2000.

Amazotheamazing

profitius wrote: »

It makes sense in terms of numbers. Remember that rugby is popular in parts of Cork too. Overall its more popular in Limerick but in terms of numbers I bet the number of rugby fans in Cork and Limerick are closer than people think.

Cork has also the most potential to grow also. I'm not being biased here I'm just looking at the numbers that stand out.

Places where theres never been much interest in rugby are the places rugby should be targeting. Munsters success in the last decade has uncovered a new generation of fans (including myself) who didn't know much about the game before the year 2000.

Numbers don't mean a thing unless they are interested in rugby. China has a billion people, still rubbish at rugby.

You can't build a stadium in a place with no interest and expect it to spark an interest. you need to work from the grassroots up. I don't know if the numbers would even be that similar, judging by the relative strength of the clubs in each city.

Of course Munster should target Cork, Waterford etc, but not at the expense of what it already has, which, in effect, is what your plan would lead to.

Cpt_Blackbeard

profitius wrote: »

It makes sense in terms of numbers. Remember that rugby is popular in parts of Cork too. Overall its more popular in Limerick but in terms of numbers I bet the number of rugby fans in Cork and Limerick are closer than people think.

Cork has also the most potential to grow also. I'm not being biased here I'm just looking at the numbers that stand out.

Places where theres never been much interest in rugby are the places rugby should be targeting. Munsters success in the last decade has uncovered a new generation of fans (including myself) who didn't know much about the game before the year 2000.

If Cork had the potential for serious growth, why didn't it happen during the 9 years where Munster were at the top of European rugby? Cork has never been able to consistently sell-out Musgrave park. Even when Thomond was being rebuilt, the numbers were low. The county has ~5 times the population of Limerick yet it cannot fill a stadium half the size. Its population is bigger than the whole of North Munster afaik.

I've no problems with a single training squad being based in Cork, provided there are better facilities present. As far as I know, there are plans to improve the CIT/UCC facilities, but those facilities are not as of yet in place. Currently, UL has the best facilities in Ireland and there are plans in place to extend the existing arena also. Munster have recently signed a contract to use CIT's facilities though, so a single training base there might just be a short-term measure until the scenario is reassessed 2-3 years down the line.

Monty Burnz

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

If Cork had the potential for serious growth, why didn't it happen during the 9 years where Munster were at the top of European rugby? Cork has never been able to consistently sell-out Musgrave park.

To be fair, if you were putting the big HEC cup games on, you'd probably be able to sell out Pairc Ui Caiomh. Unfortunately, the way they distribute the games, if it's on in Musgrave it's almost certainly a low-profile match to begin with.

ormond lad

profitius wrote: »

It makes sense in terms of numbers. Remember that rugby is popular in parts of Cork too. Overall its more popular in Limerick but in terms of numbers I bet the number of rugby fans in Cork and Limerick are closer than people think.

Cork has also the most potential to grow also. I'm not being biased here I'm just looking at the numbers that stand out.

Places where theres never been much interest in rugby are the places rugby should be targeting. Munsters success in the last decade has uncovered a new generation of fans (including myself) who didn't know much about the game before the year 2000.

Cork does have the bigger potential to grow. The biggest problem of developing the sport is how the 2 big schools take in huge numbers every year and they will do a lot to stop another top grade school developing in the city and there is already enough clubs.

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Numbers don't mean a thing unless they are interested in rugby. China has a billion people, still rubbish at rugby.

You can't build a stadium in a place with no interest and expect it to spark an interest. you need to work from the grassroots up. I don't know if the numbers would even be that similar, judging by the relative strength of the clubs in each city.

Of course Munster should target Cork, Waterford etc, but not at the expense of what it already has, which, in effect, is what your plan would lead to.

You do need to build from grass roots up which is why developing the clubs so that all the clubs in cork city are always fielding at all age groups even the clubs who have usually not fielded at these age groups and then taken the kids out of the 2 schools and from the 2 colleges to field u21 sides.(mainly talking about the likes of Con)
I wouldnt be sure about the playing numbers, plenty of the cork clubs field at j3 level and below while in Limerick you only go down to j2 level and afaik it never has went below j2 level in the northern half of the province.
A pre season game should be played sometime in the next few years in Waterford. The British and Irish Cup games around the province have been successful and Waterford in the only place where the full side could play outside of Cork/Limerick City

Amazotheamazing

Monty Burnz wrote: »

To be fair, if you were putting the big HEC cup games on, you'd probably be able to sell out Pairc Ui Caiomh. Unfortunately, the way they distribute the games, if it's on in Musgrave it's almost certainly a low-profile match to begin with.

There's definitely and element of that about it, but I don't think anyone really believes rugby is as popular in Cork as it is in Limerick. People have to big Cork up in terms of potential because there's no other argument that suits, imo. Potentially I could pull Jessica Alba, it's hard to see how it'd happen though.

Lelantos

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Monty Burnz wrote: »

To be fair, if you were putting the big HEC cup games on, you'd probably be able to sell out Pairc Ui Caiomh. Unfortunately, the way they distribute the games, if it's on in Musgrave it's almost certainly a low-profile match to begin with.

There's definitely and element of that about it, but I don't think anyone really believes rugby is as popular in Cork as it is in Limerick. People have to big Cork up in terms of potential because there's no other argument that suits, imo. Potentially I could pull Jessica Alba, it's hard to see how it'd happen though.

Duct tape & a gun perhaps?

jm08

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

There's definitely and element of that about it, but I don't think anyone really believes rugby is as popular in Cork as it is in Limerick. People have to big Cork up in terms of potential because there's no other argument that suits, imo. Potentially I could pull Jessica Alba, it's hard to see how it'd happen though.

Having two bases has helped Munster not to become/appear to be just a Limerick club and means that people outside of Limerick will buy into it being a Munster club/province.

A lot of competition from other sports in Cork as well which suggests to me that Munster need to keep a presence in Cork.

twinytwo

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

If Cork had the potential for serious growth, why didn't it happen during the 9 years where Munster were at the top of European rugby? Cork has never been able to consistently sell-out Musgrave park. Even when Thomond was being rebuilt, the numbers were low. The county has ~5 times the population of Limerick yet it cannot fill a stadium half the size. Its population is bigger than the whole of North Munster afaik.

I've no problems with a single training squad being based in Cork, provided there are better facilities present. As far as I know, there are plans to improve the CIT/UCC facilities, but those facilities are not as of yet in place. Currently, UL has the best facilities in Ireland and there are plans in place to extend the existing arena also. Munster have recently signed a contract to use CIT's facilities though, so a single training base there might just be a short-term measure until the scenario is reassessed 2-3 years down the line.

From the off i think that there should be no question about limerick/ul.

However there were 11 games played in thomond last season. Twas only sold out 3 times.. v saints,scarlets and of corse leinster.

When you look at musgrave, there is little to no traveling fans in attendence, its averages about 8000 fans per game to a 9300?? capacity.. against teams like aironi (aironi for some reason did pull the biggest crowd this season though)and dragons which are never going to pull a crowd anyway especially with half strung munster teams.

Musgrave also misses out on a lot of the bandwagon supporters as it is alot better to be bragging about going to thomond than standing in the pissing rain in cork.



Also anytime iv been there it is the stand that appear to been "empty" compared to hardy being to move along the terrraces.. prob something to do with the stand tickets costing twice as much as the terrace.

profitius

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Numbers don't mean a thing unless they are interested in rugby. China has a billion people, still rubbish at rugby.

You can't build a stadium in a place with no interest and expect it to spark an interest. you need to work from the grassroots up. I don't know if the numbers would even be that similar, judging by the relative strength of the clubs in each city.

Of course Munster should target Cork, Waterford etc, but not at the expense of what it already has, which, in effect, is what your plan would lead to.

There as many Munster players from Cork as there are from Limerick if not more. Imagine if Munster actually made a bigger effort to promote the sport in Cork. This is what I'm getting at.

I think some Limerick supporters take it too personally as we see in some threads when they talk about the boost Limericks economy gets when Munster is playing. Munster comes first as far as I'm concerned, not the Limerick or Cork economies.

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

If Cork had the potential for serious growth, why didn't it happen during the 9 years where Munster were at the top of European rugby? Cork has never been able to consistently sell-out Musgrave park. Even when Thomond was being rebuilt, the numbers were low. The county has ~5 times the population of Limerick yet it cannot fill a stadium half the size. Its population is bigger than the whole of North Munster afaik.

I've no problems with a single training squad being based in Cork, provided there are better facilities present. As far as I know, there are plans to improve the CIT/UCC facilities, but those facilities are not as of yet in place. Currently, UL has the best facilities in Ireland and there are plans in place to extend the existing arena also. Munster have recently signed a contract to use CIT's facilities though, so a single training base there might just be a short-term measure until the scenario is reassessed 2-3 years down the line.

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

There's definitely and element of that about it, but I don't think anyone really believes rugby is as popular in Cork as it is in Limerick. People have to big Cork up in terms of potential because there's no other argument that suits, imo. Potentially I could pull Jessica Alba, it's hard to see how it'd happen though.

How do you explain the higher attendances in Musgrave in some of the early Celtic league seasons?

I guarantee you that Munster would have bigger crowds if they rebuilt Musgrave or built a new stadium somewhere in Cork. As well as that they'd probably have more people filling out the corporate boxes. Thats what it boils down to. Whether you like it or not theres much more potential in Cork. To ignore this due to tradition is really having the blinkers on. You could say rugby has reached saturation point in Limerick.

I would have built the big, new stadium in Cork but still have at least 1/3rd of the matches in Limerick and a few friendlies and A matches in Waterford/Tipp etc.

I'm not knocking Limerick btw. Its a fine city but we can't ignore the numbers.

phog

profitius wrote: »

I would have built the big, new stadium in Cork but still have at least 1/3rd of the matches in Limerick and a few friendlies and A matches in Waterford/Tipp etc.

What would our debt be like now if Munster had gone for a green field site and develop it at a time when the price of land had gone through the roof?

The attendance figures for both venues for the League games only - the last few columns show the percentage of games and the percentage attendance for each venue.

I know full members of the MRSC have to purchase a Season ticket for at least one of the venues so Thomond's figures may be skewed a bit by that.

Season MP Games MP Attend TP Games TP Attend Combined Games Combined Attend MP % Games MP % Attend TP % Games TP % Attend
01/02 2 10615 2 12000 4 22615 50% 47% 50% 53%
02/03 3 19500 2 14532 5 34032 60% 57% 40% 43%
03/04 7 33635 4 16703 11 50338 64% 67% 36% 33%
04/05 6 29670 4 26500 10 56170 60% 53% 40% 47%
05/06 5 30200 5 38700 10 68900 50% 44% 50% 56%
06/07 5 30328 5 38892 10 69220 50% 44% 50% 56%
07/08 9 60810 9 60810 100% 100% 0% 0%
08/09 4 34740 5 126637 9 161377 44% 22% 56% 78%
09/10 3 26055 6 141527 9 167582 33% 16% 67% 84%
10/11 4 28463 9 180509 13 208972 31% 14% 69% 86%
11/12 4 31584 7 128445 11 160029 36% 20% 64% 80%
Grand Total 52 335600 49 724445 101 1060045 51% 32% 49% 68%