Munster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread II

Amazotheamazing

profitius wrote: »

How do you explain the higher attendances in Musgrave in some of the early Celtic league seasons?

I guarantee you that Munster would have bigger crowds if they rebuilt Musgrave or built a new stadium somewhere in Cork. As well as that they'd probably have more people filling out the corporate boxes. Thats what it boils down to. Whether you like it or not theres much more potential in Cork. To ignore this due to tradition is really having the blinkers on. You could say rugby has reached saturation point in Limerick.

I would have built the big, new stadium in Cork but still have at least 1/3rd of the matches in Limerick and a few friendlies and A matches in Waterford/Tipp etc.

I'm not knocking Limerick btw. Its a fine city but we can't ignore the numbers.

I'll take your guarantees on hypothetical situations with a pinch of salt. The potential argument looks good but only matters if potential can be realised. Rugby has been played in Cork for 130 years, when is it going to really take off? When will we see players coming through from Cork's equivalent of Moyross? When we will see another school break through like Castletroy did in Limerick etc?

nerd69

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

profitius wrote: »

How do you explain the higher attendances in Musgrave in some of the early Celtic league seasons?

I guarantee you that Munster would have bigger crowds if they rebuilt Musgrave or built a new stadium somewhere in Cork. As well as that they'd probably have more people filling out the corporate boxes. Thats what it boils down to. Whether you like it or not theres much more potential in Cork. To ignore this due to tradition is really having the blinkers on. You could say rugby has reached saturation point in Limerick.

I would have built the big, new stadium in Cork but still have at least 1/3rd of the matches in Limerick and a few friendlies and A matches in Waterford/Tipp etc.

I'm not knocking Limerick btw. Its a fine city but we can't ignore the numbers.

I'll take your guarantees on hypothetical situations with a pinch of salt. The potential argument looks good but only matters if potential can be realised. Rugby has been played in Cork for 130 years, when is it going to really take off? When will we see players coming through from Cork's equivalent of Moyross? When we will see another school break through like Castletroy did in Limerick etc?

When will you get as many limerick lads traveling to cork as you do cork fans traveling to limerick it's about the games played play a hc game in cork and tickets will be gold dust

Cpt_Blackbeard

nerd69 wrote: »

When will you get as many limerick lads traveling to cork as you do cork fans traveling to limerick it's about the games played play a hc game in cork and tickets will be gold dust

Obviously. The stadium is tiny and an embarrassment. Playing any games in Cork is probably costing the branch serious sums of money. Cork is getting games and apparently now the central training base in order to keep the Cork fans happy.

profitius

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

I'll take your guarantees on hypothetical situations with a pinch of salt. The potential argument looks good but only matters if potential can be realised. Rugby has been played in Cork for 130 years, when is it going to really take off? When will we see players coming through from Cork's equivalent of Moyross? When we will see another school break through like Castletroy did in Limerick etc?

Rugby has yet to take off in Cork but still Cork supply as many players as Limerick to Munster. Thats my point. Cork might not be a rugby city but still there might be more rugby fans than there are in Limerick.

As I said its basically a numbers game. Rugby is growing all the time but the big stumbling block I can see down the line is the size of the Limerick population. I also think when TP debts are paid off they'll look at developing a stadium in Cork. I personally wouldn't rush into developing Musgrave without looking around the city for potential sites. The GAA are going to rebuild pairc ui caoimh into a nice new 40,000+ stadium and that could be an option for a few matches per year.

Amazotheamazing

profitius wrote: »

Rugby has yet to take off in Cork but still Cork supply as many players as Limerick to Munster. Thats my point. Cork might not be a rugby city but still there might be more rugby fans than there are in Limerick.

As I said its basically a numbers game. Rugby is growing all the time but the big stumbling block I can see down the line is the size of the Limerick population. I also think when TP debts are paid off they'll look at developing a stadium in Cork. I personally wouldn't rush into developing Musgrave without looking around the city for potential sites. The GAA are going to rebuild pairc ui caoimh into a nice new 40,000+ stadium and that could be an option for a few matches per year.

You're basically saying you want to rip up 100 years of tradition so people who've no interest in rugby can have the chance to get interested?

You're discussing decades in the future if you're thinking in terms of North Munster's population v. Cork's.

profitius

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

You're basically saying you want to rip up 100 years of tradition so people who've no interest in rugby can have the chance to get interested?

You're discussing decades in the future if you're thinking in terms of North Munster's population v. Cork's.

Traditionally Munster have had 2 bases and traditionally Munster were the third best province out of 4.

I'm not going against any tradition and to tell you the truth I wouldn't let tradition stand in the way.

Amazotheamazing

profitius wrote: »

Traditionally Munster have had 2 bases and traditionally Munster were the third best province out of 4.

I'm not going against any tradition and to tell you the truth I wouldn't let tradition stand in the way.

I would when there's good reasons for the tradition.

Lelantos

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

profitius wrote: »

Traditionally Munster have had 2 bases and traditionally Munster were the third best province out of 4.

I'm not going against any tradition and to tell you the truth I wouldn't let tradition stand in the way.

I would when there's good reasons for the tradition.

Third best? The inter pros were extremely close, only 3 or 4 wins between the lot, so that's not correct

profitius

Lelantos wrote: »

Third best? The inter pros were extremely close, only 3 or 4 wins between the lot, so that's not correct

Link?

CIARAN_BOYLE

profitius wrote: »

Link?

If you check wikipedia under ulster rugby (26) munster rugby (22) leinster rugby (20) or connacht rugby (2) you will find your answers

Lelantos

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

profitius wrote: »

Link?

If you check wikipedia under ulster rugby (26) munster rugby (22) leinster rugby (20) or connacht rugby (2) you will find your answers

I didnt check wiki, but the numbers I got were a bit closer, still, all 3 provinces were pretty damn close

Lelantos

profitius wrote: »

Lelantos wrote: »

Third best? The inter pros were extremely close, only 3 or 4 wins between the lot, so that's not correct

Link?

Google, tis bloody marvelous!

PhatPiggins

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

nerd69 wrote: »

When will you get as many limerick lads traveling to cork as you do cork fans traveling to limerick it's about the games played play a hc game in cork and tickets will be gold dust

Obviously. The stadium is tiny and an embarrassment. Playing any games in Cork is probably costing the branch serious sums of money. Cork is getting games and apparently now the central training base in order to keep the Cork fans happy.

Musgrave is a dump but Cork is a nice city. Thomond is a nice stadium but Limerick is a hole. If we could combine the two we d be in business.

nerd69

PhatPiggins wrote: »

Musgrave is a dump but Cork is a nice city. Thomond is a nice stadium but Limerick is a hole. If we could combine the two we d be in business.

thats unfair to limerick i prefer cork myself but its my home county so im incredibly biased as most posters here are one way or the other but i think your being very harsh on limerick it has its problems as a city but so do most citys and the "stab city" thing is exaggerated the gf was going to ul last year so i spent a fair bit of time up there and from what is saw its a lovely city and the vast majority of people are very friendly

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Obviously. The stadium is tiny and an embarrassment. Playing any games in Cork is probably costing the branch serious sums of money. Cork is getting games and apparently now the central training base in order to keep the Cork fans happy.

what do you mean obviously the point being made was that cork cant sell out musgrave park im saying without cork you wouldn't sell out thomond nearly as much and with big games in cork you would sell out a thomond size stadium i was saying it to dismiss the posters that are saying limerick is a stronghold and cork is a subsidiary county from a rugby perspective because this is no longer the case i would go as far as to say there even.

touts

Cork fans can wish all they like but with TP now redeveloped and firmly established as the main venue Musgrave will never have more than 5 or 6 first team games a season. That's not enough to justify major investment. The previous plans for redevelopment depended on non rugby related facilities (shops apartments etc) being included in the development to fund the project. All that is gone now.

The IRFU/MB should team up with the FAI to redevelop either Musgrave Park or Turners Cross as a joint stadium. Put 20+ games a year (Rabo, LOI, pre-season games, U21 Internationals etc, International Friendly games etc) in the new stadium and the numbers will start to look far better. Plus while one of MP/TC is being developed the other can be shared by both codes meaning disruption to games in the city is minimised. Finally once the shared stadium is redeveloped the now unused one could be sold (probably wouldn't get much for it in the current climate but it would be something)

totallegend

touts wrote: »

Cork fans can wish all they like but with TP now redeveloped and firmly established as the main venue Musgrave will never have more than 5 or 6 first team games a season. That's not enough to justify major investment. The previous plans for redevelopment depended on non rugby related facilities (shops apartments etc) being included in the development to fund the project. All that is gone now.

Correct

touts wrote: »

The IRFU/MB should team up with the FAI to redevelop either Musgrave Park or Turners Cross as a joint stadium. Put 20+ games a year (Rabo, LOI, pre-season games, U21 Internationals etc, International Friendly games etc) in the new stadium and the numbers will start to look far better. Plus while one of MP/TC is being developed the other can be shared by both codes meaning disruption to games in the city is minimised. Finally once the shared stadium is redeveloped the now unused one could be sold (probably wouldn't get much for it in the current climate but it would be something)

The FAI are in pretty dodgy financial straits at the moment and however bad the crowds in Musgrave are for Rabo games, the attendances at Cork's LOI games are just pitiful, so there would be no real anchor tenant there. Both IRFU and FAI have made pretty heavy commitments in terms of what games must be staged at Lansdowne so there is limited scope for dishing out high-profile games; in rugby terms, only Wolfhounds games can be played away from the Aviva and then the new Cork stadium would be competing with Thomond and Ravenhill.

So basically, it ain't going to happen.

profitius

touts wrote: »

Cork fans can wish all they like but with TP now redeveloped and firmly established as the main venue Musgrave will never have more than 5 or 6 first team games a season. That's not enough to justify major investment. The previous plans for redevelopment depended on non rugby related facilities (shops apartments etc) being included in the development to fund the project. All that is gone now.

In its current state. It won't be like that forever. Remember the reason Musgrave has not been redeveloped is because Munster are still paying off Thomond.

I'm starting to repeat myself in this thread. My main point is that a base in Cork would have been better for Munster. More fans, more money etc. Theres little doubt about that but some people are in denial.

Amazotheamazing

profitius wrote: »

In its current state. It won't be like that forever. Remember the reason Musgrave has not been redeveloped is because Munster are still paying off Thomond.

I'm starting to repeat myself in this thread. My main point is that a base in Cork would have been better for Munster. More fans, more money etc. Theres little doubt about that but some people are in denial.

you mean the potential for more fans. You seem to operating under a field of dreams logic that if you build it they will come, most of cork still rolls on reasonably disinterested in rugby.

Podge_irl

To be fair, Musgrave is a crap stadium. There was an immediate increase in supporters in Leinster following the move to the RDS as it was simply a better experience and more suitable for families etc. While Musgrave obviously won't be redeveloped anytime soon it could go a long way towards increasing attendances.

jacothelad

PhatPiggins wrote: »

Musgrave is a dump but Cork is a nice city. Thomond is a nice stadium but Limerick is a hole. If we could combine the two we d be in business.

Kenmare is nice. I could nip over from Eyeries for the games and be back in O'Shea's or Causkey's well before the 11.00 last orders....chucking out time... (October)

buck65

profitius wrote: »

In its current state. It won't be like that forever. Remember the reason Musgrave has not been redeveloped is because Munster are still paying off Thomond.

I'm starting to repeat myself in this thread. My main point is that a base in Cork would have been better for Munster. More fans, more money etc. Theres little doubt about that but some people are in denial.

Actually you are in denial if you believe that.
Munster are probably counting their stars that Musgrave didn't go ahead for whatever reasons, their struggling to fill Thomond these days and the games in Cork are only token and still don't sell out.
Limerick is Munster rugby, Thomond is their home ground and fortress.
Always was always will be.

Monty Burnz

buck65 wrote: »

the games in Cork are only token and still don't sell out.

Slightly circular logic there. Of course they don't sell out, because they are only a few token games.

Cookiemunster

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Slightly circular logic there. Of course they don't sell out, because they are only a few token games.

While Cork doesn't get the top games for obvious reasons, I disagree that they only get token games. If Cork did only get token games then both Italian teams would play in Cork and Glasgow rather than Edinburgh would play in Limerick. Treviso in limerick last season got a bigger attandance than the capacity of Musgrave. Glasgow in Cork toward the end of the season with a top 4 place at stake didn't sell out.

buck65

By token games I mean they get 3 or 4 games a year to placate the Cork mob not necessarily token opposition.
As previous poster said the same opposition in Limerick would bring in twice the crowd.
This argument is really nonsense, it is obvious to everyone apart froma few Cork people where Munster rugby is going.
By the way I'm not from Limerick.

Cpt_Blackbeard

buck65 wrote: »

By token games I mean they get 3 or 4 games a year to placate the Cork mob not necessarily token opposition.
As previous poster said the same opposition in Limerick would bring in twice the crowd.
This argument is really nonsense, it is obvious to everyone apart froma few Cork people where Munster rugby is going.
By the way I'm not from Limerick.

Twice the crowd would also bring almost twice the money. Games in Cork since the redevelopment of Thomond could have cost the branch ~€1m. I'm pulling figures from the top of my head, but its clear that Musgrave is a ball and chain around the ankles of Munster rugby. However, games are still played there to keep Cork fans happy. Any talk of having built a main stadium in Cork isn't really worth discussing. Thomond is the home of Munster (and maybe Irish) rugby, you don't abandon that in hope of a few thousand bandwagon supporters.

Amazotheamazing

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Twice the crowd would also bring almost twice the money. Games in Cork since the redevelopment of Thomond could have cost the branch ~€1m. I'm pulling figures from the top of my head, but its clear that Musgrave is a ball and chain around the ankles of Munster rugby. However, games are still played there to keep Cork fans happy. Any talk of having built a main stadium in Cork isn't really worth discussing. Thomond is the home of Munster (and maybe Irish) rugby, you don't abandon that in hope of a few thousand bandwagon supporters.

I think there's a strong argument for redeveloping Musgrave to 20,000 or so but the greenfield site in Cork so lads who've no interest in rugby can catch a few games is beyond bizarre.

WallyGUFC

Lads sorry if it's mentioned earlier but havn't time to search the thread for it. How much is a Thomond Park season ticket?

ormond lad

WallyGUFC wrote: »

Lads sorry if it's mentioned earlier but havn't time to search the thread for it. How much is a Thomond Park season ticket?

Depends on package you want like if you want a stand or terrace ticket.
Last season TP season ticket prices for pro12 games were €240 for Catagory A stand,
Cat B stand were €180 and Terrace season ticket was €120.
Think ticket prices are the same for the season coming.
H cup not included

WallyGUFC

Yeah maybe I was looking at the wrong place but the Munster ticket office site isn't very clear. Thought I saw two different prices for East and West stands though?

profitius

buck65 wrote: »

Actually you are in denial if you believe that.
Munster are probably counting their stars that Musgrave didn't go ahead for whatever reasons, their struggling to fill Thomond these days and the games in Cork are only token and still don't sell out.
Limerick is Munster rugby, Thomond is their home ground and fortress.
Always was always will be.

I'm not in denial at all. There were as many people going to Musgrave as there was going to Limerick back in the early Celtic league days. That flies in the face of what you posters are saying. And remember that back then rugby wasn't half as popular!

And of course Munster want to try and keep the Cork people happy with games in Musgrave. Thats using common sense. Look at whats happening in Wales after they split up the regions. I don't know what the long term consequences are in giving a few token games to the biggest urban area in Munster but they better build a stadium within the next decade after promising it.