Vitali Klitschko,the Greatest Heavyweight Champion of all Time ?

walshb

cowzerp wrote: »

sorry i meant 4-2 and would have ended 4 down if the last 6 was the same, was worded wrong.

Point still stands, winning 4-6 is a lot when you think of it..

Yes, but of the 4 maybe a swing could have it level. Point is that at 6 rds complete they were both badly tiring and probably the fight would not have made it 12 rds. It's a toss up for me, with Klit a slight favourite barring the cut.

You seem to only want to give credit to one man here. Both men were in that fight and made that fight as tough as it was. Close too. Klit was ahead and fairly too I thought, but it was very competitive after 6rds completed.

cowzerp

walshb wrote: »

Yes, but of the 4 maybe a swing could have it level. Point is that at 6 rds complete they were both badly tiring and probably the fight would not have made it 12 rds. It's a toss up for me, with Klit a slight favourite barring the cut.

You seem to only want to give credit to one man here. Both men were in that fight and made that fight as tough as it was. Close too. Klit was ahead and fairly too I thought, but it was very competitive after 6rds completed.

Yes but my whole point is Lewis was more tired than Vitali, So the way i see it Lewis was the 1 in for the harder night.

sxt

Not even throwing cans of tear gas at him , can stop Vitali

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/gameon/post/2012/07/vitali-klitschko-sprayed-with-tear-gas-during-kiev-protest/1

Bobby Baccala

Fall_Guy wrote: »

Who did you give the final round to, out of interest?

The final round was very tight, I'd edge it to vitali even though he was on the defense, lewis wasnt as aggressive as he could have been and vitali was landing those jabs.

walshb

cowzerp wrote: »

Yes but my whole point is Lewis was more tired than Vitali, So the way i see it Lewis was the 1 in for the harder night.

I really think it's too difficult to say which man was more gassed. Klit looked out of it as well.

The other issue is that pretty much most people believe that Lewis was past it, fading, overweight and quite sloppy and slow in compariosn to previous fights and years. You seem to think he was close to peak, or even at it?

I am prepared to meet half way and say that Klit probably would have won barring the cut, but no way was that close to the best Lewis, or best prepared Lewis. He looked desperate slow in there.

How do you see Lewis from say 1998 vs. that Klit? Easy win for Klit, very tough win? How do you think he beats Lewis?

cowzerp

walshb wrote: »

How do you see Lewis from say 1998 vs. that Klit? Easy win for Klit, very tough win? How do you think he beats Lewis?

I actually think the smaller lewis would have had more trouble and would not have hit as hard or have tired Vitali as much, Lewis to me was better in the end of his career than what most people may consider peak age, The tiredness was majorly down to been hit more than normal and been in a war that he was not used too, same could be said for Vitali who never gasses at all, A half a stone for a man of 6,5" and his build is not much at all, it is been way over played.

walshb

cowzerp wrote: »

I actually think the smaller lewis would have had more trouble and would not have hit as hard or have tired Vitali as much, Lewis to me was better in the end of his career than what most people may consider peak age, The tiredness was majorly down to been hit more than normal and been in a war that he was not used too, same could be said for Vitali who never gasses at all, A half a stone for a man of 6,5" and his build is not much at all, it is been way over played.

Lewis was only smaller in the sense that he may have weighed less, and that being due to the fact that when he met Klit he was a bit overweight. He was slow, ponedrous and lethargic looking; and a lot more than from earlier years.

The Lewis that whacked Ruddock, or drew with Evander, or beat Mercer was a lot sharper and faster than the one that beat Vitali.

Fall_Guy

P4DDY2K11 wrote: »

The final round was very tight, I'd edge it to vitali even though he was on the defense, lewis wasnt as aggressive as he could have been and vitali was landing those jabs.

In that case there is no point debating the fight because I thought that was one of the most clear-cut rounds of the fight. If you gave that to vitali you must have had him up 5-1 or possibly 6-0 at the end of the fight.

The way I saw it there were two big men going toe to toe for six rounds. I really can't see how anyone who has watched the majority of the fights by both fighters can say vitali is the better boxer though. In my eyes lennox is slightly faster, heavier hitting and sounder technically.

Maravilla33

Wasn't Michael Grant the same size as Vitali? I'd take that Lewis to beat Vitali a bit more comfortably. True Lennox was only 3 years younger but he knew he was preparing for a big undefeated supposedly dangerous fighter. He weighed 10 pounds less. He wasn't preparing for some nobody he thought he would walk through like before the Vitali fight was scheduled. Lewis was by no means perfect but I think he has Vitali's number.

A fight lasts 12 rounds. Surely the aim of the game is to either outpoint your opponent over 12 rounds or stop them. Lewis stopped him and it was in the 6th so its not like Vitali had it wrapped up. There was a long way to go. Nobodies arguing that Vitali wasn't winning. But it wasn't the demolition job its being remembered as. Vitali was winning. Meldrick Taylor was beating Chavez. Herol Graham was beating Julian Jackson. None of them won. If Vitali cant beat a 38 year old out of shape Lewis then I don't see how he beats a fully wound up one.

Vitalis good but I think its actually embarassing that some are stating he has a claim to being the greatest.

Maravilla33

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJUzl0aFHZw

Only one man can claim to be the greatest for me at HW. In terms of skill, style, longevity and quality of opposition hes head and shoulders above Vitali. I don't think Vitali would lay a glove on Ali at his best like he was above. An absolute shut out.

badabing106

Maravilla33 wrote: »

Wasn't Michael Grant the same size as Vitali? .

Maravilla33

badabing106 wrote: »

Maravilla33 wrote: »

Wasn't Michael Grant the same size as Vitali? .

Not really sure what your point is? Michael grant was a big man. The Americans may have hyped him up but fact was lewis was coming up against a big undefeated supposed saviour of American HW boxing. Lewis trained for this was fully wound up and did a job on him. Didn't at any stage compare grant to vitali ability wise but was showing the difference in lewis performance when he thought he was in a dangerous fight.

If that's your only comeback fair enough..

badabing106

Maravilla33 wrote: »

Not really sure what your point is? Michael grant was a big man. The Americans may have hyped him up but fact was lewis was coming up against a big undefeated supposed saviour of American HW boxing. Lewis trained for this was fully wound up and did a job on him. Didn't at any stage compare grant to vitali ability wise but was showing the difference in lewis performance when he thought he was in a dangerous fight.

If that's your only comeback fair enough..

Audley harrison is a big man as well. All big men are not alike. Michael grant got exposed for a weak chin in his previous fight getting knocked down twice in the first round , he got knocked down in the first round againt Lennox, and he got knocked out in the first round in the fight after Lennox.

Maravilla33

badabing106 wrote: »

Maravilla33 wrote: »

Not really sure what your point is? Michael grant was a big man. The Americans may have hyped him up but fact was lewis was coming up against a big undefeated supposed saviour of American HW boxing. Lewis trained for this was fully wound up and did a job on him. Didn't at any stage compare grant to vitali ability wise but was showing the difference in lewis performance when he thought he was in a dangerous fight.

If that's your only comeback fair enough..

Audley harrison is a big man as well. All big men are not alike. Michael grant got exposed for a weak chin in his previous fight getting knocked down twice in the first round , he got knocked down in the first round againt Lennox, and he got knocked out in the first round in the fight after Lennox.

But my point wasn't that Michael Grant is amazing. The perception was he was a dangerous foe. Therefore Lennox got in prime physical shape and was ready to go. Against vitali he was out of shape and not fully wound up as he thought he was facing some binman and not someone in vitalis league. Yet he still won. Not exactly worthy of a facepalm imo. You took 1 sentence of my whole post and twisted the meaning.

sxt

Maravilla33 wrote: »

Only one man can claim to be the greatest for me at HW. In terms of skill, style, longevity and quality of opposition hes head and shoulders above Vitali. I don't think Vitali would lay a glove on Ali at his best like he was above. An absolute shut out.

I wouldn't call a literally shot fighter an example of great opposition, a fighter resting his hopes in landing a "big one"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleveland_Williams


I think it is a bit romantic to think that a fighter like Vitali wouldn't lay a glove on Ali....Ali was in a few 50/50 slug it out dog fights lets remember. It isn't easy to lay glove on Vitali if you have followed his career, especially if you are 6 inches shorter. The "rope a dope" would not work twice and it wouldn't have worked first time against someone like Vitali ? Would Ali have even beaten Foreman second time round?

It isn't an absolute shut out

Dietsquirt

P4DDY2K11 wrote: »

How does this post even make sense? He lost it because lewis opened a cut, worked on that cut and vitali was deemed unfit to fight on, that is how he lost it. He may have wanted to fight on but to do so could have ended his career.

Yes Lennox won by stoppage, i admit he was very smart in targeting Vit's eye after he opened him, but Lewis took some heavy blows in the fight (as did Vit!) and i couldn't see him coming back.

In my opinion, if the fight had gone on, Lewis was going to get stopped, either by tko or ko. I think he thought he'd be in for an 'easier' battle that night. Klitschko is an animal and a warrior.

Lewis won the fight but was losing on all the cards. Klitchsko wanted thew rematch, Lewis refused..

Dietsquirt

walshb wrote: »

When did he offer a rematch? In the ring at post fight interview?

Lewis had nothing to prove. He beat Klit. And, had Lewis been younger and more in shape she would have beaten him more clearly.

''And, had Lewis been younger and more in shape she would have beaten him more clearly.''

How can you possibly stand by this statement, it is impossible to say how a fighter would have done in a particular era. Klitchsko has been tested in very few of his fights. Lennox won on the night, i admit that, but he was losing the fight. It's obvious. To say he would have beaten him 'more clearly' is just ridiculous. Lennox got lucky on the night, he was resilient and got a stoppage

walshb

Dietsquirt wrote: »

''And, had Lewis been younger and more in shape she would have beaten him more clearly.''

How can you possibly stand by this statement, it is impossible to say how a fighter would have done in a particular era. Klitchsko has been tested in very few of his fights. Lennox won on the night, i admit that, but he was losing the fight. It's obvious. To say he would have beaten him 'more clearly' is just ridiculous. Lennox got lucky on the night, he was resilient and got a stoppage

It is not ridiculous when you factor in that I believe that Lewis was past his best, ill-prepared, and overweight. And, he still won. It was not luck. Lewis' fists caused the bad cuts.

As for the bolded quote: It's not like Lewis came decades before Klit. Their careers crossed paths, just like Ali's career crossed paths with Foreman's, for example.

Maravilla33

sxt wrote: »

I wouldn't call a literally shot fighter an example of great opposition, a fighter resting his hopes in landing a "big one"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleveland_Williams


I think it is a bit romantic to think that a fighter like Vitali wouldn't lay a glove on Ali....Ali was in a few 50/50 slug it out dog fights lets remember. It isn't easy to lay glove on Vitali if you have followed his career, especially if you are 6 inches shorter. The "rope a dope" would not work twice and it wouldn't have worked first time against someone like Vitali ? Would Ali have even beaten Foreman second time round?

It isn't an absolute shut out

If you watch the video I put up its of Ali pre ban. Completely different fighter to the one you're talking about. Why would he need to rope a dope when he had the speed, reflexes, footwork and movement to lead Vitali a merry dance around the ring for 12/15 rounds?

Edit: ha thanks for the link but I'm well aware of who Cleveland Williams was (I'm his biggest fan on here......) and what state he was in for that fight. That takes nothing away from the way Ali moved that night. It was like watching a welterweight and not a big man. Not many would have touched that version of The Greatest...

sxt

Maravilla33 wrote: »

If you watch the video I put up its of Ali pre ban. Completely different fighter to the one you're talking about. Why would he need to rope a dope when he had the speed, reflexes, footwork and movement to lead Vitali a merry dance around the ring for 12/15 rounds?

Edit: ha thanks for the link but I'm well aware of who Cleveland Williams was (I'm his biggest fan on here......) and what state he was in for that fight. That takes nothing away from the way Ali moved that night. It was like watching a welterweight and not a big man. Not many would have touched that version of The Greatest...

He was fighting a guy that should not have been allowed near a ring. He was shot in the stomach a year earlier and suffered alot of bodily damage. ..

"Williams was shot with a .357 Magnum in the abdomen, barely survived, and suffered permanent kidney damage, a loss of over ten feet of his small intestine, and nerve damage from the bullet which affected his left leg above the knee, causing it to atrophy as a result

"went from 218lbs. to 145lbs"

"Williams underwent four operations over the next seven months for colon damage and an injured right kidney which was removed in June 1965"

"Doctors did not take out a bullet that had broken his right hip joint and caused partial paralysis of some hip muscles"

sxt

walshb wrote: »

It was not luck. Lewis' fists caused the bad cuts.

It was complete luck ,caused by the brushing of the tape /seam of the glove . The cut was not caused by the skill of fisty cuffs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtdOteT5G0Q

walshb

Did I miss something in the video? Where in the video do we see the effects of this punch, as in the cut, and blood?

Maravilla33

sxt wrote: »

He was fighting a guy that should not have been allowed near a ring. He was shot in the stomach a year earlier and suffered alot of bodily damage. ..

"Williams was shot with a .357 Magnum in the abdomen, barely survived, and suffered permanent kidney damage, a loss of over ten feet of his small intestine, and nerve damage from the bullet which affected his left leg above the knee, causing it to atrophy as a result

"went from 218lbs. to 145lbs"

"Williams underwent four operations over the next seven months for colon damage and an injured right kidney which was removed in June 1965"

"Doctors did not take out a bullet that had broken his right hip joint and caused partial paralysis of some hip muscles"

Again you're not reading what I'm writing. Forget about who Ali was fighting. His speed and movement were phenomenal. You could put any other HW in history in a ring on his own and he wouldnt be able to move like that. Who he is fighting is irrelevant for my point. You can cut and paste all you want about Cleveland Williams (i'm well aware of his history) but it still doesn't change my point. Ali at his peak, pre ban and with all of his speed, reflexes and movement intact dances around Vitali all night and every night. I wouldn't have thought many would argue with this.

I've sang Cleveland William's praises on here before and been told he was a bum in return. The man was a beast and a great example of heart, determination and never giving up.

Edit: You've even bolded my mainpoint. It doesn't take away from the way Ali MOVED. Nowhere does it say he beat a great opponent. The way he danced round the ring was majestic and unheard of for a big man.

sxt

Maravilla33 wrote: »

You could put any other HW in history in a ring on his own and he wouldnt be able to move like that. Who he is fighting is irrelevant for my point. .

The only relevant point is who he is fighting? ,the opposition is of the upmost and most relevant importance , it determines everything?

gene_tunney

Had a long message typed up but lost it unfortunately.

The long and the short of it was that Ali never fought a physical specimen that even vaguely resembled Vitali Klitschko. Ali was used to being the stronger man and the bully, but all of a sudden he's the smaller man against a guy that is "unknockoutable". Ali's jab, his main weapon, is neutralised due to the vast size differential, not to mention Vitali's reflexes. I think Vitali's punches would reign down on Ali and he would win a UD.

Bobby Baccala

sxt wrote: »

It was complete luck ,caused by the brushing of the tape /seam of the glove . The cut was not caused by the skill of fisty cuffs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtdOteT5G0Q

so you're saying the seem of his glove opened up a wound that needed 60 stitches? It was Lewis' fist that caused that cut and the other cut beneath Vitalis eye. I'm a big supporter of Vit but you're lying to yourself if you think the seam of lewis' glove opened up a cuts like that on vitalis face. It was a hard right hand and the work Lewis put into hitting the cut that won that fight, not any seam of a glove or brushing of tape or any excuses like that.

Maravilla33

sxt wrote: »

The only relevant point is who he is fighting? ,the opposition is of the upmost and most relevant importance , it determines everything?

I am always surprised by the undying love for Vitali on this site. It is unwavering and in this case seems to leave users unable to read. I will try again.

I posted a video of Ali (I presume you watched it otherwise I don't know what we are arguing about) to illustrate his speed and ridiculous movement before his ban. This version of Ali to me is the greatest HW ever. Thats not taking away from his later career as I think it is this and the alterations he made as well as his earlier self that make him truly special. But the speed, movement and reflexes he showed back then were amazing.

Now it just so happens that the video I posted was vs Cleveland Williams. For the purpose of my argument this is irrelevant (it is my argument so I should know..) If you want watch the video again and cover Cleveland with your thumb if needs be. The movement would still be staggering for a HW. Ali could have shown the same qualities I am highlighting in a shadow boxing session. As I previously said no other HW in history could display these qualities even if they were in a ring by themselves. Is my point clear yet?

Other HWs could match Ali for his chin, jab, heart, boxing brain durability and even his handspeed. Its a mix of these and then his footspeed, movement and reflexes that make him a freak. You asked is Vitali the greatest HW ever? No he is not. Ali is and Vitali wouldn't live with the version of Ali I am talking about. I give him a better chance against the Ali that fought Foreman.

cowzerp

Ali would have struggled with Vitali, Vitali would not let him in range at all and pepper away at him

Vitali is a bad match up for Ali, I'd give foreman a better chance.

Oh and paddy, if the cut was opened by the Seam of the wrist then the rest of the work on opening it up would not have been an option.

Maravilla33

gene_tunney wrote: »

Had a long message typed up but lost it unfortunately.

The long and the short of it was that Ali never fought a physical specimen that even vaguely resembled Vitali Klitschko. Ali was used to being the stronger man and the bully, but all of a sudden he's the smaller man against a guy that is "unknockoutable". Ali's jab, his main weapon, is neutralised due to the vast size differential, not to mention Vitali's reflexes. I think Vitali's punches would reign down on Ali and he would win a UD.

That may be true even though Ali did beat some big powerful men in his day. I could just as easily say that Vitali has never fought a man who had the combination of skill, speed and heart and durability that Ali did? How many HOF fighters has Vitali fought? How many has he beat?

Your breakdown of the fight is a bit simplistic. Ali didn't exactly rely on bullying his opponents? He was the smaller man in some of his fights but even when he was bigger he didn't rely on his size or strength.. Basically your argument is Vitali is too big? A 4" height and 1" reach differential doesn't seem insurmountable to me when you take into account the difference in skill. So a basic vitali jab jab right hand beats the fastest moving HW of all time??? Ali is better in so many departments here. Vitali's footwork is not good enough to get near him enough. When he does get near he doesn't throw enough punches to outpoint him. Neither man is getting the KO so that leads me to one result every time, Ali UD.

No disrespect to Vitali who H2H is a tough match for most but against a pre ban Ali (which is what I am arguing here) he is out of his depth.

Maravilla33

cowzerp wrote: »

Ali would have struggled with Vitali, Vitali would not let him in range at all and pepper away at him

Vitali is a bad match up for Ali, I'd give foreman a better chance.

Oh and paddy, if the cut was opened by the Seam of the wrist then the rest of the work on opening it up would not have been an option.

Disagree that Foreman has more chance of beating Vitali. Don't get me wrong I think hes one of a few who can beat Vit but give Ali a far bigger chance.

If Foreman gets into a brawl against Vitali like he did against Lyle then I could see him being KO'd. I don't see anyway in which Ali loses to Klitschko (again I have to stress I am talking about a peak Ali) Not the one who fought the likes of Norton or Foreman.