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Vitali Klitschko,the Greatest Heavyweight Champion of all Time ?

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    #182
    Stojkovic
    Registered Users Posts: 981 ✭✭✭Stojkovic


    Still Ali for me.

    Klitschko would be Top Ten though.


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    #183
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 55,018 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    sxt wrote: »
    The only relevant point is who he is fighting? ,the opposition is of the upmost and most relevant importance , it determines everything? :confused:

    Maravilla33 could have posted similar speed and movement clips from other fights and I am betting you would still be focusing on dissing the opposition.

    I personally think the Clay/Ali from Liston 1 and II was the best I have seen. But, I guess Liston was just a bum?


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    #184
    cowzerp
    Registered Users Posts: 10,549 ✭✭✭✭cowzerp


    Maravilla33 wrote: »
    Disagree that Foreman has more chance of beating Vitali. Don't get me wrong I think hes one of a few who can beat Vit but give Ali a far bigger chance.

    If Foreman gets into a brawl against Vitali like he did against Lyle then I could see him being KO'd. I don't see anyway in which Ali loses to Klitschko (again I have to stress I am talking about a peak Ali) Not the one who fought the likes of Norton or Foreman.


    Foreman had a better chin than Ali in my opinion, he also had much more power-I don't see anyone outboxing Vitali from the past, Wlad would be the closest and then Lewis, Ali would struggle to get close enough top land without been tagged, The 1 inch reach difference is misleading, You could add a few on for Vitali and take a few off for Ali when you factor in the height and arm position's, Ali's arms would be considerably further away from Vitali's head than Vitali's would be to Ali's due to heights.

    Ali is 1 of my favourite ever Boxers and i call him the greatest, but this is massively due top his importance to Boxing and socially his story etc and add to that that he is 1 of the greatest Boxers too.

    Vitali beats him and i think it would be much easier than people think, A scrapper like Holyfield, Foreman would have more chance, Vitali aint getting outboxed.

    Rush Boxing club and Rush Martial Arts head coach.



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    #185
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 55,018 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    cowzerp wrote: »
    Vitali beats him and i think it would be much easier than people think, A scrapper like Holyfield, Foreman would have more chance, Vitali aint getting outboxed.

    I am with you almost on this, but I still think Clay/Ali could do the trick on points.


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    #186
    Maravilla33
    Registered Users Posts: 524 ✭✭✭Maravilla33


    walshb wrote: »
    Maravilla33 could have posted similar speed and movement clips from other fights and I am betting you would still be focusing on dissing the opposition.

    I personally think the Clay/Ali from Liston 1 and II was the best I have seen. But, I guess Liston was just a bum?

    Can, worms, EVERYWHERE...........


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    #187
    Maravilla33
    Registered Users Posts: 524 ✭✭✭Maravilla33


    cowzerp wrote: »
    Foreman had a better chin than Ali in my opinion, he also had much more power-I don't see anyone outboxing Vitali from the past, Wlad would be the closest and then Lewis, Ali would struggle to get close enough top land without been tagged, The 1 inch reach difference is misleading, You could add a few on for Vitali and take a few off for Ali when you factor in the height and arm position's, Ali's arms would be considerably further away from Vitali's head than Vitali's would be to Ali's due to heights.

    Ali is 1 of my favourite ever Boxers and i call him the greatest, but this is massively due top his importance to Boxing and socially his story etc and add to that that he is 1 of the greatest Boxers too.

    Vitali beats him and i think it would be much easier than people think, A scrapper like Holyfield, Foreman would have more chance, Vitali aint getting outboxed.

    Foreman and certainly Holyfield have less chance against Vitali as they are more than happy to trade. Both have been in trouble against much smaller and lighter punchers than Vitali. I could make arguments for both beating Vitali (more so Foreman) but think they would struggle a lot more than Clay would to get the job done.

    Clay is too cute for this and would simply hit and run. He doesnt have to overwhelm Vitali to win. If he stays on his bike and potshots and makes Vitali miss then he wins.


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    #188
    cowzerp
    Registered Users Posts: 10,549 ✭✭✭✭cowzerp


    Maravilla33 wrote: »
    Clay is too cute for this and would simply hit and run. He doesnt have to overwhelm Vitali to win. If he stays on his bike and potshots and makes Vitali miss then he wins.

    This is my whole point-I don't think hit and run would work with Vitali, I don't think Scrapping will work either way but your better off getting inside where his advantages are at a minimum, Getting in there would be extremely hard though and you would need both power to gain respect like Foreman and a chin like Evander and Foreman too to have any chance at pulling this off, Thinking of it i don't think Evander has that power and would struggle too.

    Rush Boxing club and Rush Martial Arts head coach.



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    #189
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 55,018 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    I think that a peak Holyfiled matches up well with Klit. Holyfield had enough power, punched in bunches, fast combinations and a great jab and double jab. He also was very quick at darting in and out and firing off heavy combinations. I really think that Holyfield would overwhelm Klit with combination speed, similar to how he blitzed big George in 1991.

    Holyfield or Ali to beat Klit? Both just as capable!


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    #190
    Bobby Baccala
    Registered Users Posts: 7,341 ✭✭✭Bobby Baccala


    Anyone mentiones Holmes yet? A fairly big man with one of the best jabs for a HW i can think of, also very powerful and agile. He could give Vitali a bit of trouble if you ask me.


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    #191
    cowzerp
    Registered Users Posts: 10,549 ✭✭✭✭cowzerp


    Never write off Evander ;)

    Rush Boxing club and Rush Martial Arts head coach.



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    #192
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 55,018 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    P4DDY2K11 wrote: »
    Anyone mentiones Holmes yet? A fairly big man with one of the best jabs for a HW i can think of, also very powerful and agile. He could give Vitali a bit of trouble if you ask me.

    And he could really brawl it out too. Yes, he to me is a style that cause Klit big issues. Big, rangey, fast, tough and busy as hell when he needs to be.


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    #193
    gene_tunney
    Registered Users Posts: 1,325 ✭✭✭gene_tunney


    Maravilla33 wrote: »
    That may be true even though Ali did beat some big powerful men in his day. I could just as easily say that Vitali has never fought a man who had the combination of skill, speed and heart and durability that Ali did? How many HOF fighters has Vitali fought? How many has he beat?

    Your breakdown of the fight is a bit simplistic. Ali didn't exactly rely on bullying his opponents? He was the smaller man in some of his fights but even when he was bigger he didn't rely on his size or strength.. Basically your argument is Vitali is too big? A 4" height and 1" reach differential doesn't seem insurmountable to me when you take into account the difference in skill. So a basic vitali jab jab right hand beats the fastest moving HW of all time??? Ali is better in so many departments here. Vitali's footwork is not good enough to get near him enough. When he does get near he doesn't throw enough punches to outpoint him. Neither man is getting the KO so that leads me to one result every time, Ali UD.

    No disrespect to Vitali who H2H is a tough match for most but against a pre ban Ali (which is what I am arguing here) he is out of his depth.


    I hate getting sucked into these discussions. Joe Frazier and Ken Norton outpointed Ali, neither man has half the tools that Vitali has. You're going to tell me this was the early 70s Ali, which it was, but styles make fights and these guys would always have given him trouble. So he's not unbeatable. 40 years later boxing has come on a long way. Vitali hits harder, his reflexes are just as good, his footspeed is good, his chin is undentable. Ali would simply have no clue how to fight him.


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    #194
    gene_tunney
    Registered Users Posts: 1,325 ✭✭✭gene_tunney


    I give prime Holyfield a better chance against Vitali than Ali.


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    #195
    Maravilla33
    Registered Users Posts: 524 ✭✭✭Maravilla33


    gene_tunney wrote: »
    I hate getting sucked into these discussions. Joe Frazier and Ken Norton outpointed Ali, neither man has half the tools that Vitali has. You're going to tell me this was the early 70s Ali, which it was, but styles make fights and these guys would always have given him trouble. So he's not unbeatable. 40 years later boxing has come on a long way. Vitali hits harder, his reflexes are just as good, his footspeed is good, his chin is undentable. Ali would simply have no clue how to fight him.

    Again you're undermining my whole point by using Frazier and Norton. I am solely arguing a case for Ali pre ban here.I've admitted Vitali could gave the older version trouble.

    Disagree with the reflexes and foot speed. Vitalis not exactly known for either.

    I really don't get what some people see when they watch Vitali. Its like Sugar Ray Robinson had a baby with The Terminator or something. Cant be outboxed, cant be hurt. He's just unbeatable unless you get "lucky" and cut him...


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    #196
    gav_dub100
    Registered Users Posts: 7 ✭gav_dub100


    Vitali undoubtedly has the physical dimensions to compete in any era. Is he the greatest of all time; in a word No.

    I think we can agree that Lewis was the best fighter he ever fought. Lewis beat him; stopped on cuts is still stopped; end of. You cant call it lucky if a cut is caused by a punch. Some fighters are gifted with an iron chin (Vitali case in point), some are glass jawed. Some fighters get cut easily, some dont. Its a natural characteristic and something you just have to deal with! Weak skinned, weak chinnned, either can end your night fast! After Vitali got cut he had 2 options, go out of his way to protect the eye and try outpoint Lewis or get Lewis out of there asap. With the success he was having, he probably made the obvious choice, but as it turned out it was the wrong choice.

    If you want to talk about Ali, for me Ali beats him. A lot of time has been spent talking about how does Ali get to Vitali, but how does Vitali hit Ali? Slower hands and very ponderous foot speed by comparison means he would struggle to land. Also despite having an unbelievable beard, Vitali gets hit. Ali would be able to avoid Vitali's onslaught and outpoint him in a pure demonstration of the sweet science.


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    #197
    pcass31
    Registered Users Posts: 16 ✭pcass31


    I like klitschko outside the ring a brilliant man inside the ring too but for me his style is hard to watch.
    Literally jabs people out of the fight i know there is more to him than that but its hard to watch.
    lenox Lewis was the same its been to long since we have had a slick heavyweight champ.
    Maybe Im being harsh but after the likes of tyson,Ali and frazier etc its hard to watch vitali as good a champ that he is!


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