Vitali Klitschko,the Greatest Heavyweight Champion of all Time ?

walshb

cowzerp wrote: »

Lose the attitude MD

People (Kids) starting out in sports are not thinking about money, flash cars and women, they're thinking about what they enjoy and usually what is accessible, Football and Basketball are very accessible in the states, Exactly the reason why they're not popular here.

This I agree with.

The whole obesity side to the debate seems off to me. If one wants to dismiss that "other sports is a possible reason for the lack of HW talent in the U.S.," then surely one could also dismiss the obesity reason as having an effect on the lack of HW talent in the U.S.

gene brought obesity into the debate. Then when tackled on it he got quite defensive. I know it wasn't his main argument, but it was one angle he was using. I think the obesity side to the debate holds less weight than other sports being an influence.

MD1990

cowzerp wrote: »

Lose the attitude MD

People (Kids) starting out in sports are not thinking about money, flash cars and women, they're thinking about what they enjoy and usually what is accessible, Football and Basketball are very accessible in the states, Exactly the reason why they're not popular here.

but some many of the Running Backs in the NFL are excellent sprinters
Running times like 10.0-10.4 range
but there isnt the money in Athletics so they opt for the NFL
alot of the black sportsmen in the US are thinking about the money because of the backrounds they come from

cowzerp

MD1990 wrote: »

but some many of the Running Backs in the NFL are excellent sprinters
Running times like 10.0-10.4 range
but there isnt the money in Athletics so they opt for the NFL
alot of the black sportsmen in the US are thinking about the money because of the backrounds they come from

If your suggesting that they change over from running you may be right, if you're simply saying they start out as kids at Football due to money then you're wrong-Athletic's is not that exciting so if a kid has a choice of a team sport with his mates or a lonely sport like running then it's obvious what most will choose.

Also Athletics is not near as accesible as Football in the states.

Maravilla33

So we are all agreed that Vitali is not the greatest heavyweight ever? Possibly one of the best in head to head ratings but a far cry away from being the best HW ever, in general.

The whole argument that he would be viewed completely different if he was American is a cop out. He simply doesn't have the names on his record or the style to be considered top of the tree and his nationality wouldn't change that.

cowzerp

Maravilla33 wrote: »

So we are all agreed that Vitali is not the greatest heavyweight ever? Possibly one of the best in head to head ratings but a far cry away from being the best HW ever, in general.

Certainly not in agreement, he deserves to be considered as do others-In head to heads i don't see any of the considered best beating him so in that case why could he not be the best.

He's there or there abouts for me, with Ali, Foreman and Holyfield.

twinytwo

Maravilla33 wrote: »

Is Vitali the greatest heavyweight ever? Of course hes not.

And as for this hes never really been beat nonsense? Whether you like it or not hes been beaten twice. Once, Lennox punched him in the face till he was deemed unfit to continue. I don't care who was ahead or what you think may have happened or if you think there should have been a rematch. We can only deal in facts and the fact is there is an L beside Vitali's name for that fight. It wasn't some robbery. He was stopped.

Against Byrd he basically quit. He was cruising in that fight. Just had to stay on his feet to win easily. Fair enough he got injured but there have been others with injuries who have fought on and not thrown in the towel in a fight they had in the bag.

Halloween Jack

cowzerp wrote: »

Maravilla33 wrote: »

So we are all agreed that Vitali is not the greatest heavyweight ever? Possibly one of the best in head to head ratings but a far cry away from being the best HW ever, in general.

Certainly not in agreement, he deserves to be considered as do others-In head to heads i don't see any of the considered best beating him so in that case why could he not be the best.

He's there or there abouts for me, with Ali, Foreman and Holyfield.

As was stated earlier, the only guy of genuine class he ever faced stopped him. And as I mentioned Lewis has a stronger case for being placed on an all time list. Furthermore, while I respect vitali as a wonderful champion, I can't remember too many times where he really had to dig deep and pull a win out of the fire, or stage a stirring comeback etc, those are the hallmarks of a truly great sportsman. While I can sympathise with vitali as he can only beat what's in front of him, we can only speculate as to how he would react if he was caught flush with a bomb from foreman or driven crazy by ali's movement etc.

Furthermore, greatness in sport is an ephemeral concept, I'd say it's probably 90% achievement but 10% joie de vive, the ability of certain athletes to capture your imagination by doing things hitherto unimaginable, a cryuff turn, Seve getting it stone dead from half way up a tree, federer's crazy overhead lob: you get the picture. Vitali is a fine fighter who troubles any heavy from any era and beats most of them. He is however far from the greatest ever.

Maravilla33

Halloween Jack wrote: »

cowzerp wrote: »

Maravilla33 wrote: »

So we are all agreed that Vitali is not the greatest heavyweight ever? Possibly one of the best in head to head ratings but a far cry away from being the best HW ever, in general.

Certainly not in agreement, he deserves to be considered as do others-In head to heads i don't see any of the considered best beating him so in that case why could he not be the best.

He's there or there abouts for me, with Ali, Foreman and Holyfield.

As was stated earlier, the only guy of genuine class he ever faced stopped him. And as I mentioned Lewis has a stronger case for being placed on an all time list. Furthermore, while I respect vitali as a wonderful champion, I can't remember too many times where he really had to dig deep and pull a win out of the fire, or stage a stirring comeback etc, those are the hallmarks of a truly great sportsman. While I can sympathise with vitali as he can only beat what's in front of him, we can only speculate as to how he would react if he was caught flush with a bomb from foreman or driven crazy by ali's movement etc.

Furthermore, greatness in sport is an ephemeral concept, I'd say it's probably 90% achievement but 10% joie de vive, the ability of certain athletes to capture your imagination by doing things hitherto unimaginable, a cryuff turn, Seve getting it stone dead from half way up a tree, federer's crazy overhead lob: you get the picture. Vitali is a fine fighter who troubles any heavy from any era and beats most of them. He is however far from the greatest ever.

Great post and I'm fully in agreement.

Bobby Baccala

Halloween Jack wrote: »

the only guy of genuine class he ever faced stopped him.

Not to mention lewis was 2 weeks off the couch and clearly out of shape.

cowzerp

P4DDY2K11 wrote: »

Not to mention lewis was 2 weeks off the couch and clearly out of shape.

That is not true, both where in training for fights and both opponents pulled on them-both where in the same boat.

Lewis was tiring because a big man was giving him hell.

Maravilla33

cowzerp wrote: »

That is not true, both where in training for fights and both opponents pulled on them-both where in the same boat.

Lewis was tiring because a big man was giving him hell.

So Lewis was in his prime physical shape in that one?

He was 38 had been fighting nearly 15 years, was the heaviest he'd ever been and was at the tail end of his career. Whatever way you look at it, it wasn't and couldn't have been the best version of Lewis in there.

I've said it before on here I'm not a big fan of Lennox Lewis but he beats Vitali whenever they meet. Vitali wouldn't enjoy the size advantage he is used to and is in with someone who is a better boxer than him. Always a chance with Lewis that he'd be caught and KO'd but thats the only chance I'd give Mr Klitschko.

Halloween Jack

cowzerp wrote: »

P4DDY2K11 wrote: »

Not to mention lewis was 2 weeks off the couch and clearly out of shape.

That is not true, both where in training for fights and both opponents pulled on them-both where in the same boat.

Lewis was tiring because a big man was giving him hell.

A big man who required 60 stitches in his face after the fight.

cowzerp

Maravilla33 wrote: »

So Lewis was in his prime physical shape in that one?

never said that, but he was not off the couch.

Both where training for fights-Vitali was clearly winning and been the better boxer, Lewis having tougher skin than Vitali was the key. Nothing to do with who was better.

Bar Injury or cuts Lewis never beats Vitali who is a better more improved version of Lewis.

Discodog

People will never forget the greats & both Klitschkos will be virtually forgotten. Being great is about epic battles, being the underdog & unmissable viewing. When people make all of these mythical comparisons they forget heart, determination, passion etc. It's also about the fights where both men give everything in the greatest arenas in the world.

Bobby Baccala

Maravilla33 wrote: »

I've said it before on here I'm not a big fan of Lennox Lewis but he beats Vitali whenever they meet. Vitali wouldn't enjoy the size advantage he is used to and is in with someone who is a better boxer than him. Always a chance with Lewis that he'd be caught and KO'd but thats the only chance I'd give Mr Klitschko.

Vitali would have been bigger than a prime Lewis by a good bit, Lewis weighed in at his heaviest ever in their fight and he was well out of shape.

Maravilla33

P4DDY2K11 wrote: »

Vitali would have been bigger than a prime Lewis by a good bit, Lewis weighed in at his heaviest ever in their fight and he was well out of shape.

Lewis was a big heavy. Like a proper super heavyweight. Sure he'd be a couple of inches smaller but had a bigger reach and they both generally weighed in between 240 and 250 during their careers. Klit might be a bit bigger but the size advantage is tiny compared to some of the other fighters he fought. So not really sure where you're going with the bigger by a good bit? In 2000 when Lewis fought Michael Grant he was 247 Vitali was 244 that same year against Byrd. In 1997 against McCall Lewis was 251 Vitali against Cleveland Woods (?) was 232. Compare this to Vitali against Chisora or Adamek or half of the other lads hes fought and Lewis was more than a match for him physically.

twinytwo

lets put it this way... id pay to see ali, frazier fight hell even lewis and tyson... would i pay to see either of the klitschkos??.. hell no

Halloween Jack

Discodog wrote: »

People will never forget the greats & both Klitschkos will be virtually forgotten. Being great is about epic battles, being the underdog & unmissable viewing. When people make all of these mythical comparisons they forget heart, determination, passion etc. It's also about the fights where both men give everything in the greatest arenas in the world.

Spot on, whatever about vitali being a great athlete (and by all accounts a decent guy) to be considered the greatest in my opinion, you have to be iconic, and transcend the sport you compete in, you have to do things in your chosen arena which make kids want to get off the couch and lace them up etc.

The evidence with vitali seems to suggest that he actually turns off casual fans, which is a tradgedy for boxing, as like i say he is a wonderful athlete and great champion, its such a shame he'll never get to test himself to his fullest and have those wars we expect from great fighters because his level of opposition ranges from the limited, to the circus freakshow types.

walshb

P4DDY2K11 wrote: »

Vitali would have been bigger than a prime Lewis by a good bit, Lewis weighed in at his heaviest ever in their fight and he was well out of shape.

Vitali is bigger, but not by what you seem to be making out. Maybe an inch or two max in height. Lewis was at his best a solid 230-240 lbs. Vitali was the same.

I think the best version of Lewis was the early to mid 90s. This version beats any Vitali. He is just all around the bestter boxer/fighter.

The same with Riddick Bowe. A solid 230-240 lbs (1991-1992), and maybe an inch or two shorter than Vitali. I back Bowe all ther time to beat Vitali.

cowzerp

walshb wrote: »

I think the best version of Lewis was the early to mid 90s. This version beats any Vitali. He is juts all around the bestter boxer/fighter.

The same with Riddick Bowe. A solid 230-240 lbs (1991-1992), and maybe an inch or two shorter than Vitali. I back Bowe all ther time to beat Vitali.

Lewis never beats Vitali without injury, Vitali is simply a better version of what Lewis was, higher ko rate and not knocked out like Lewis was.

Bowe could have been the greatest and at peak would be a very tough fight for Vitali, hard to say though as he never really showed his best in my opinion.

As far as Lewis go people seem to forget how boring and negative he was

walshb

cowzerp wrote: »

Lewis never beats Vitali without injury, Vitali is simply a better version of what Lewis was, higher ko rate and not knocked out like Lewis was.

Bowe could have been the greatest and at peak would be a very tough fight for Vitali, hard to say though as he never really showed his best in my opinion.

As far as Lewis go people seem to forget how boring and negative he was

Better version? I don't see it. Lewis to me is more polished, balanced and versatile.

KO rate here means nothing, as I really don't see Vitali knocking Lewis out. So, what has KO % got to do with them meeting? Lewis most liklely is a heavier single shot hitter, and had Lewis met some of the men Vitali knocked out he too would have knocked them out. Cannot say the same in reverse for Vitali meeting Lewis' opponents. Mercer and Tua and Holyfiled are men with very decent beards.

As for boring? Vitali hardly set the world on fire, did he?

Lewis could be negative, but also, he could be very aggressive. His career was very varied as regards his style and methods.

Maravilla33

Lennox seemed to up his game and focus the more dangerous his opponent. He had these lapses of concentration against fighters he probably thought he'd walk through. But against a real live opponent he would bring his a game.

The only department i could rate Vitali ahead of Lewis in is his chin. Lewis is the more polished boxer, has the better jab and greater single shot power than Vitali. I give Vitali a puncher's chance against a peak Lewis as he's not outboxing him.

sxt

Walshb wrote: »

Vitali is bigger, but not by what you seem to be making out. Maybe an inch or two max in height. Lewis was at his best a solid 230-240 lbs. Vitali was the same.

I think the best version of Lewis was the early to mid 90s. This version beats any Vitali. He is just all around the bestter boxer/fighter.

Lewis's peak was the late 90' /early 00's . I just watched the "Battle of Britain" Frank Bruno /Lennox Lewis out of interest again, and he was being clearly out foxed by frank Bruno until Frank got suckered in the 7th round. That was 1993 and one his biggest fights at the time

Maravilla33 wrote: »

Lennox seemed to up his game and focus the more dangerous his opponent. He had these lapses of concentration against fighters he probably thought he'd walk through. But against a real live opponent he would bring his a game.

The only department i could rate Vitali ahead of Lewis in is his chin. Lewis is the more polished boxer, has the better jab and greater single shot power than Vitali. I give Vitali a puncher's chance against a peak Lewis as he's not outboxing him.

For all Vitalis fighting and boxing skills and heart , you only rate is chin ahead of Lewis's . Vitali (not at peak) put Lewis (Close to peak) into retirement. A green inexperienced (At world level) Vitali was first to all the punches against Lewis if you watch the tape again , and was winning the fight on all three judges cards by two rounds, even after that freak injury which meant he was fighting blinded from the third round on and taking Lewis's very best shots! Lewis was still in his prime in the early 00's when he beat david Tua and in 2001 when he beat Hasim Rahman in their rematch.

After The Vitali Lewis contest, in which the Doctor would not allow the fight continue , Lewis promised Vitali a rematch to his face.

Lennox, soon after announced his retirement from the sport. Actions speak louder than words..


I am fairly certain what the outcome of that fight would have been , so was Lennox.

sxt

Discodog wrote: »

People will never forget the greats & both Klitschkos will be virtually forgotten. Being great is about epic battles, being the underdog & unmissable viewing. When people make all of these mythical comparisons they forget heart, determination, passion etc. It's also about the fights where both men give everything in the greatest arenas in the world.

You Don't think Vitali Klitscko has clearly shown these characteristics in buckets and spades...

Maravilla33

sxt wrote: »

You Don't think Vitali Klitscko has clearly shown these characteristics in buckets and spades...

Chris Byrd

Maravilla33

sxt wrote: »

Lewis's peak was the late 90' /early 00's . I just watched the "Battle of Britain" Frank Bruno /Lennox Lewis out of interest again, and he was being clearly out foxed by frank Bruno until Frank got suckered in the 7th round. That was 1993 and one his biggest fights at the time



For all Vitalis fighting and boxing skills and heart , you only rate is chin ahead of Lewis's . Vitali (not at peak) put Lewis (Close to peak) into retirement. A green inexperienced (At world level) Vitali was first to all the punches against Lewis if you watch the tape again , and was winning the fight on all three judges cards by two rounds, even after that freak injury which meant he was fighting blinded from the third round on and taking Lewis's very best shots! Lewis was still in his prime in the early 00's when he beat david Tua and in 2001 when he beat Hasim Rahman in their rematch.

After The Vitali Lewis contest, in which the Doctor would not allow the fight continue , Lewis promised Vitali a rematch to his face.

Lennox, soon after announced his retirement from the sport. Actions speak louder than words..


I am fairly certain what the outcome of that fight would have been , so was Lennox.

Lewis close to his peak? 38 years old at the end of a 15 year career and weighing the heaviest he ever had? You're having a laugh.

cowzerp

Maravilla33 wrote: »

Lewis close to his peak? 38 years old at the end of a 15 year career and weighing the heaviest he ever had? You're having a laugh.

Lewis at 38 was better thanewis in his 20's.

So to me he was closer to peak.

Kev M

I think Lewis and Vitali are the two most difficult to beat guys ever. For that reason I'd say they are the best ever. But it depends what people mean by 'best'.

In their fight Lewis wasn't in shape, and was fortunate for what happened. Not considering their fight, and just looking at their quality of opponents over the careers, I'd lean towards Lewis as the best.

To refer back to the OP, if Vitali was an American he'd be the best boxer ever, have done a few schwarzenegger style movies, and would probably be running for the presidency by now or at the very least be given a major state to govern

Kev M

cowzerp wrote: »

Lewis at 38 was better thanewis in his 20's.

So to me he was closer to peak.

I agree, but in that particular fight he just looked plain out of shape.

raymann

cowzerp wrote: »

Lewis never beats Vitali without injury, Vitali is simply a better version of what Lewis was, higher ko rate and not knocked out like Lewis was.

Bowe could have been the greatest and at peak would be a very tough fight for Vitali, hard to say though as he never really showed his best in my opinion.

As far as Lewis go people seem to forget how boring and negative he was

lewis resume is ten times Vk's, packed full of b+ fighters in or around their prime and other encounters with genuine world class operators that admittedly would have happened earlier in an ideal world. to start talking about how vk's ko ratio is better without taking this into consideration shows a lack of thought and knowledge.

the focused/prepared version of lewis that fought donovon ruddock or golota would have beat the brakes of vk or wk.

riddick bowe knew exactly what his chances were against prime lewis. sometimes when klit fans talk about about lewis i wonder if they have only ever seen the old out of shaper version that still BEAT vk. there was much much, much better versions such as this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nhiIvcHvtk