Noonan Reveals UL Plans for Opera Centre

pigtown

Maybe it's the wrong comparison. What I'm trying to say is that If I had the choice between studying in a large college campus with lots of facilities, or a small city centre campus that couldn't offer the same experiences, I'd go the the former. Maybe that's just me.

Sierra Oscar

OwenM wrote: »

So the campus and facilities are more important than the choice of course? Are you really saying that?

Would you attend Maynooth and become a priest if they had the best campus/ facilities for training/education!

I think the user is making the valid point that the standard of a university campus and the services provided invariably affect whether a student picks a certain course over a similar course that is offered by another university. It is also quite easy to demonstrate that the standard of a campus and the services provided (alongside ease of access to those services) can shape the quality of individual courses.

It is pretty basic, and it is why those universities that invest in their facilities in a logical and planned manner perform better on an international level as compared to their counterparts which fail to make proper investments.

ninty9er

iguana wrote: »

Why do you keep making that non-comparison, it makes no sense. You know that Mary I is a branch of UL right? They are never going to offer the same course on two of their campuses. Yet thousands of students do attend Mary I, in order to attend those specific courses, despite not being on the main campus.

Mary I is not a branch of UL. It is a college with UL accredited degrees, similar to the way UCD, UCC, NUIG and NUIM are all the one university.

Mary I is 114 years old, UL became a University in 1989!

UL and Mary I have an academic link, a very strong one, but Mary I controls it's own affairs.

The only UL departments I could see working in the city centre are Medicine and Architecture, primarily because neither department has any combination of modules that I am aware of that are delivered outside of the department. Of the remaining 26 departments, most would have cross-teaching of modules (e.g Dept. Accounting and Finance teaching students across arts, humanities and business spanning 3-4 other departments.)

The city (from listening to people) does not want students, it only wants the economic benefits students bring. Unless the city population is willing to embrace students (and everything that involves) then this is a project doomed to failure.

Taco Chips

ninty9er wrote: »

The city (from listening to people) does not want students, it only wants the economic benefits students bring. Unless the city population is willing to embrace students (and everything that involves) then this is a project doomed to failure.

This is a good point. Often you hear people giving out about the amount of students around the city - in pubs, clubs, restaurants etc.. The fact is that without the student's business in the CC the place would be even deader than it is now. It's a two way street. If you want the student's to spend money in the city then you need to give them better incentives and stop cribbing about them, making them feel isolated. Limerick needs to take a good hard look at itself and pull together some proper economic foundations, otherwise it's just going to keep spiralling towards death, and it's not far off at this stage.

On the main topic, I still don't think this is a good idea for UL. As others have said there are colleges all round the country rushing to centralise their campuses because of the direct benefits it has for the entire university. If this is to go ahead successfully they need to upgrade the area properly before moving the departments, provide much stronger transport links, set up necessary businesses in the locality to cope with a student influx etc... Knowing the city council however it will be done half arsed, incorrectly and at a huge expense with noone benefiting in the end.

Cossax

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

I think UL would rather a centralised campus but I think it's also well aware that UL cannot fully prosper if Limerick declines.

but anyhow, the instant negativity is just par for the course here.

It's a bad idea and I'd say just about anyone and everyone who has been in or is in UL knows it.
UL moving some students to town won't fix anything in the city centre and even the limited good it does will probably be outweighed by the damage done to UL by moving away from its integrated campus and facilities.

Raiser

People avoid Limerick city centre and all its inherent problems such as parking, hordes of roaming Scum etc. like the plague as they have options elsewhere.

- This UL plan seems like a crafty way of forcing thousands of people back into the city centre against their will. It also conveniently fails to address any of the many issues that led to Limerick being such an undesirable, unsafe hole.

pigtown

Bit dramatic there Raiser. I'd have no issue with them moving the entire college into the city. In fact I'd have loved to have been able to go for a stroll around th city between lectures and I actually think Limerick city is quite a nice city with a lot of potential. I'm just against splitting up the campus and restricting access to services to whichever students end up isolated.

Johnny_BravoIII

UL is 2.5miles from Patrick Street by the river.
With a little imagination in terms of infrastructure development, it's not a major obstacle

hordes of roaming Scum etc. like the plague

Really? Seriously? As in...zombie-like or something?
Have you ever spoken to anyone in your life from a different social class as yourself?

The city (from listening to people) does not want students,

And where might one tune into this collective city voice harmoniously chanting against students living in town?

As far as I'm concerned, most the arguments against the proposed relocation are more than a little narrow-minded.
The proposed relocation would be mutually beneficial.
Consider the knock-on effects in other Irish/European/World cities of student living in terms of culture & nightlife.
Not every student wants to spend 4 years ringfenced into UL trapped in a groundhog day of tipp jerseys and pints of Bud in the Stables.

zulutango

I've a lot of friends in Limerick City who are from overseas and studying, mainly towards postgraduate degrees, in the university. Pretty much all of them have chosen to live in the city centre because it offers so much more in terms of quality of life than the UL campus does.

There are pros and cons to UL developing over the years on a green field site on the edge of the city. It certainly allowed them to develop quite quickly and effortlessly. But the campus also lacks the vibrancy and life that city-based universities have.

There are a few people here looking at the city the way it is now, but there's no doubt that if there was a large cohort of students and staff based in the city centre, we'd be living in a radically different and more vibrant city.

This is very good news for both UL and Limerick. It will be a while before we see any move on it though, I suspect.

Check out http://www.patrickstreet.com for a debate on the future of the particular site where UL is proposing to move to.

zulutango

Johnny_BravoIII wrote: »

UL is 2.5miles from Patrick Street by the river.
With a little imagination in terms of infrastructure development, it's not a major obstacle

That route between the city centre and the university via the river and the canal is the best way to travel between the two places. It doesn't take very long either by foot or by bike (being about half a mile shorter than the main road). There's no motorised traffic, so you won't get killed (as I nearly was when cycling via the main road about 10 years ago) and it's flat, which is great for cyclists. It's also a really picturesque and beautiful route. There are plans to enhance it with a wider path and lighting in the next year or two. Really looking forward seeing these rolled out.

GKB

It is true that the UL campus facilitates the Humanities and Science courses where lectures and tutorials may overlap with other courses. It makes it easy to interact with these other students that you are learning with but not necessarily in their course. You need to be close to the library etc to meet these people.

But there are stand alone courses in UL that do not interact with other courses. The School of Architecture, and Product Design might actually benefit by moving into the Opera Centre where they will be exposed to exhibition spaces: Ormston House, Hunt Museum, Milk Market, and not to mention the Art College. This could be the start of a Design Hub in the city which could be the key in creating a new buzz back into the city.

ninty9er

Raiser wrote: »

People avoid Limerick city centre and all its inherent problems such as parking, hordes of roaming Scum etc. like the plague as they have options elsewhere.

- This UL plan seems like a crafty way of forcing thousands of people back into the city centre against their will. It also conveniently fails to address any of the many issues that led to Limerick being such an undesirable, unsafe hole.

Quite aside from all the logistical issues that would put a huge dent in the student experience, that is actually a fantastic point.

There are 900 students based on Clare Street, another 150 on Georges' Quay and ~3,000 thousand in Mary I.

Dublin and Cork work simply because there is a necessity to live in the city and nowhere else for the students there to go.

In any given semester there are between 1800-2000 of UL's ~9,000 full time cohort on placement all over the world, that leaves ~7,000.

2,600 of those live on, not near or close to, on the campus. The remaining ~4,500 probably consists 50% of commuting students. So essentially, the argument is for the government to spend a fortune to get a couple of thousand people to be in the city (probably no more than 1,000 on a given day), because you can bank on UL having no interest in spending money to add to its deficit and create further structural deficit issues.

On or near the campus students have a supermarket, there's a cinema Unigolf, Hurlers, Groody, Stables, Scholars, Pavillion, Sports Bar, 50m pool, top class gym, 70 clubs and societies and 330 acres to roam around.

Call me cynical, I want to see the city be regenerated as much as anyone else, but just because middle class families don't want to take up the mantle and move into the city centre (I think the proper solution), don't expect a transient population that has everything it could possible need to give up its convenience.

This is a pipe dream and is not a solution to any problem. It does't solve any problems and it doesn't bring any more students to the city centre than the city centre already has

How about, I don't know, using the space to give everyone a reason to use the city centre.

godfrey

This is insanity. Universities all over the world would give anything to have one campus with everything on site. This was highlighted only recently by a prominent member at UCD. Their buildings are scattered all over Dublin and it's a nightmare for staff and students alike.

Once again, Ireland insists on making a scrones of things in their own special way, ignoring everything that can be learnt from others, and at great expense.

Spare me.

g

Limerick Dude

godfrey wrote: »

This is insanity. Universities all over the world would give anything to have one campus with everything on site. This was highlighted only recently by a prominent member at UCD. Their buildings are scattered all over Dublin and it's a nightmare for staff and students alike.

Once again, Ireland insists on making a scrones of things in their own special way, ignoring everything that can be learnt from others, and at great expense.

Spare me.

g

That's DIT your thinking of, UCD have their own campus.

Sierra Oscar

Limerick Dude wrote: »

That's DIT your thinking of, UCD have their own campus.

True, although UCD have spent the last number of decades centralising its campus in Belfield away from seperate buildings within the city centre.

zulutango

godfrey wrote: »

This is insanity. Universities all over the world would give anything to have one campus with everything on site. This was highlighted only recently by a prominent member at UCD. Their buildings are scattered all over Dublin and it's a nightmare for staff and students alike.

Once again, Ireland insists on making a scrones of things in their own special way, ignoring everything that can be learnt from others, and at great expense.

Spare me.

g

The fact is that UL is at a significant disadvantage to other universities because it can't offer a proper city experience. It's just not appealing to spend 3 or 4 years on a sterile self-contained university campus. Many students, especially international students, relish the chance to live in a city as there is so much more on offer, i.e. night life, arts and cultural scene, shopping, and generally a greater vibrancy and life experience. Let's not lose the run of ourselves. Moving one faculty to the city isn't going to rip UL apart. In the great scheme of things it's a very positive move.

Cpt_Blackbeard

If done right, the pros will hugely outweigh the cons. Getting UL and the students into the Opera centre area would lead to massive knock-on development of the surrounding area.

A sudden influx of students into the city, the whole image of the city could be turned around. You will now have a conservative concentration of ~250 students constantly coming and going. Those 250 students will need somewhere to eat and hangout - Humanities students will have a lot of time to do the latter. The increase of students around the city would help massively in getting more middle-class types to feel comfortable in visiting the city.

Local businesses will recognise this new demand and we'll likely see a renovation of much of Arthur's Quay and the surrounding blocks to capitalise upon this. Honestly, a renovation of Arthur's Quay as a quasi student-centre/cafe/village should be high on list were this to go ahead. There is already a multi-story carpark and apartments in place to cater for students. The potatoe market too, could be used for student parking. Arthur's Quay park on a sunny day will suddenly become over-run with students.

The Locke and Trinity Rooms are far superior than anything that the Lodge and the Stables can offer. Provided the travel links - somehow utilising the Abbey river would be brilliant - were sorted out, you would get students coming from the campus and into town for "socialising".

The one thing you can say about any of the recent builds in UL is that, nothing is ever done half-assed. This would be a huge project were it to be done right, but I'd have full faith that it could be pulled off correctly. Its potentially the nicest part of the city centre and pulling this off correctly could make Limerick into a fantastic modern little city.

pigtown

I'm not so sure it would have such a huge effect on the city. Students are generally poor, shopping at Aldi and drinking in their houses before heading to icon. They won't exactly bring an economic benefit with them. I'd imagine the Students Union would operate a shop in this new building and there are bound to be new cafes/restaurants aswell, probably operated by Masterchef like all of the ones on campus. UL also have a policy of building on-campus accomodation so landlords wouldn't be benefitting that much, and if you think students are going to pay for parking everyday then you clearly don't know many students.

Then you have to look at the effect it would have on the students. They pay 2,500 a year for services such as the 70 clubs and societies that exist on campus, the health centre, student councilling, the chaplaincy services, student union etc. Are the students going to be left without these services or will they be replicated in the new building? Will class reps based in the city be entitled to miss lectures so that they can travel to the main campus for meetings? Will staff get travel expenses for when they have to attend meetings and conferences in Plassey?

Then you have to ask which courses could be moved. Design was mentioned but I attended some of their lectures for the course I did so would I be expected to travel to the city or would they run the lectures in both locations? Architecture was also mentioned but personal experience shows that these students work 9-6 Monday-Friday for a longer term than other courses and need the opportunity to unwind with fellow students or in their clubs/socs. I don't think isolating them even more is a good idea. The medical school could have been a good fit as these students have already attended college and are supposedly more mature so may not want the typical student experience, but the new medical school is nearly finished now and I think they will be sharing facilities with the nursing school anyway. So again, who do you move?

zulutango

pigtown wrote: »

I'm not so sure it would have such a huge effect on the city. Students are generally poor, shopping at Aldi and drinking in their houses before heading to icon. They won't exactly bring an economic benefit with them.

Come on now, Pigtown. This is really grasping at straws! Students the world over spend money and benefit local economies. Take the art students who mostly live in and around the city at the moment. There's a whole heap of business dependent on them, from pubs, cafés, printers, shops, etc. Throwing more students into the mix can't be seen as anyting other than a good thing for the city. Pretty much all the students who I know who live in the city centre interact with it in a very meaningful way, and they spend their money there too.

pigtown wrote: »

I'd imagine the Students Union would operate a shop in this new building and there are bound to be new cafes/restaurants aswell, probably operated by Masterchef like all of the ones on campus. UL also have a policy of building on-campus accomodation so landlords wouldn't be benefitting that much, and if you think students are going to pay for parking everyday then you clearly don't know many students.

UL (or Plassey Campus Centre) are unlikely to set up ancillary business in the city, or provide their own accomodation. As for parking, the era of students owning cars is fast coming to an end. If they are based in the city and live there too, they won't need cars. There's also advanced plans for improving the public tranpsort links between the UL campus and the city. Parking is not an issue.

pigtown wrote: »

Then you have to look at the effect it would have on the students. They pay 2,500 a year for services such as the 70 clubs and societies that exist on campus, the health centre, student councilling, the chaplaincy services, student union etc. Are the students going to be left without these services or will they be replicated in the new building? Will class reps based in the city be entitled to miss lectures so that they can travel to the main campus for meetings? Will staff get travel expenses for when they have to attend meetings and conferences in Plassey?

It'll be good for the students if anything. I can't see why they'd be denied anything they currently enjoy.

pigtown wrote: »

Then you have to ask which courses could be moved. Design was mentioned but I attended some of their lectures for the course I did so would I be expected to travel to the city or would they run the lectures in both locations? Architecture was also mentioned but personal experience shows that these students work 9-6 Monday-Friday for a longer term than other courses and need the opportunity to unwind with fellow students or in their clubs/socs. I don't think isolating them even more is a good idea. The medical school could have been a good fit as these students have already attended college and are supposedly more mature so may not want the typical student experience, but the new medical school is nearly finished now and I think they will be sharing facilities with the nursing school anyway. So again, who do you move?

Having them based in a city is hardly isolating them!! If anything, they are isolated on campus! Locating them in the city IS giving them the typical student experience.

Cpt_Blackbeard

You are acting like students in the city will be entirely secluded from campus life. That would not be the case. Central to any proposed idea would be a transport link between the campus and city. None of this would go ahead without the travel being free or massively subsidised.

Done right and UL will only be a 10min gondola ride up the river.

GKB

I know that all these great facilities like the gym, the library, the soccer pitches are used on a day to day basis by most students. But being a student of design, these facilities don't cater for us. We need Studio spaces where we spend 40-70 hours a week in doing work. We need close by accommodation for when we walk home in the middle of the night. We need craft shops, material shops, art shops, and hardware shops nearby. We end up going into the city anyway to use these facilities that are mainly for the art college because there are none on the UL campus.
It would make life a lot easier living in the city, studying in the city, and being minutes walk from anything from pubs, clubs, shops, cafes, restaurants, exhibition spaces, cultural centers etc. And if a visit to the medical center was needed, or a game of soccer, there are plans for new cycle paths to run up along the river making it very accessible to reach the main campus.
Let's not be under any illusion that the Lodge and the Stables are the life of Limerick students. Leaving the campus on a night out is the most popular choice I would think.
I don't see how moving to a city campus could be considered shooting the short straw in my case, but I do see how it would be in other departments of the college.

Poxyshamrock

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Done right and UL will only be a 10min gondola ride up the river.

Do you think they'd be successful?

Are the canal locks all in working order?

godfrey

Limerick Dude wrote: »

That's DIT your thinking of, UCD have their own campus.

UCD do indeed have a campus, and also many buildings in Dublin City Centre.

g

godfrey

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

A sudden influx of students into the city, the whole image of the city could be turned around.

How will students displace scobes? I'm keen to know this...

g

pigtown

zulutango wrote: »

Come on now, Pigtown. This is really grasping at straws! Students the world over spend money and benefit local economies. Take the art students who mostly live in and around the city at the moment. There's a whole heap of business dependent on them, from pubs, cafés, printers, shops, etc. Throwing more students into the mix can't be seen as anyting other than a good thing for the city. Pretty much all the students who I know who live in the city centre interact with it in a very meaningful way, and they spend their money there too.

Not grasping at any straws zulutango. Maybe we mix in different circles but the vast majority of students I know are on tight budgets. Part time work is not easy to come by and the grant is more difficult to get so students are spending less. In fact I've noticed a huge increase in the amount of students bringing in packed lunches to college and many would only spend €10-€15 on a night out.

UL (or Plassey Campus Centre) are unlikely to set up ancillary business in the city, or provide their own accomodation. As for parking, the era of students owning cars is fast coming to an end. If they are based in the city and live there too, they won't need cars. There's also advanced plans for improving the public tranpsort links between the UL campus and the city. Parking is not an issue.

If they are unlikely to be offered the same services and facilities in the city will their fees be cut? And I don't know about students not owning cars anymore. As expensive as it is, running a car and living at home is far cheaper than renting in college. What are these advanced plans for transport links? Because a bike lane along the river is not a public transport link.

It'll be good for the students if anything. I can't see why they'd be denied anything they currently enjoy.

They'll be denied it because they will be 2.5 miles away from it.

Having them based in a city is hardly isolating them!! If anything, they are isolated on campus! Locating them in the city IS giving them the typical student experience.

It's isolating them from the rest of the college. Maybe locating them in the city along with the rest of the college is typical but not when they are on their own.

By the way how do you break down a post and reply to different points seperately like you did to mine?

pigtown

GKB wrote: »

I know that all these great facilities like the gym, the library, the soccer pitches are used on a day to day basis by most students. But being a student of design, these facilities don't cater for us. We need Studio spaces where we spend 40-70 hours a week in doing work. We need close by accommodation for when we walk home in the middle of the night. We need craft shops, material shops, art shops, and hardware shops nearby. We end up going into the city anyway to use these facilities that are mainly for the art college because there are none on the UL campus.
It would make life a lot easier living in the city, studying in the city, and being minutes walk from anything from pubs, clubs, shops, cafes, restaurants, exhibition spaces, cultural centers etc. And if a visit to the medical center was needed, or a game of soccer, there are plans for new cycle paths to run up along the river making it very accessible to reach the main campus.
Let's not be under any illusion that the Lodge and the Stables are the life of Limerick students. Leaving the campus on a night out is the most popular choice I would think.
I don't see how moving to a city campus could be considered shooting the short straw in my case, but I do see how it would be in other departments of the college.

Well you'd know better than me. Maybe it could work in your department, defo wouldn't in both the departments I've attended though.

Cpt_Blackbeard

godfrey wrote: »

How will students displace scobes? I'm keen to know this...

g

Rather than 50 "scobes", you'd have 50 scobes and 250 students. It would dilute the concentration and improve the image.

zulutango

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

You are acting like students in the city will be entirely secluded from campus life. That would not be the case. Central to any proposed idea would be a transport link between the campus and city. None of this would go ahead without the travel being free or massively subsidised.

Done right and UL will only be a 10min gondola ride up the river.

It's been talked about for years but I really can't see it as being viable. The canal section would result in a lot of technical difficulties that would make the venture costly and impractical.

It is, however, only a short bike ride between the city and the university via the canal and Shannon riverbank. That's way to enhance the transport link. How about a public bikes scheme akin to the one in Dublin with stations at either end of the route?

ninty9er

zulutango wrote: »

The fact is that UL is at a significant disadvantage to other universities because it can't offer a proper city experience. It's just not appealing to spend 3 or 4 years on a sterile self-contained university campus. Many students, especially international students, relish the chance to live in a city as there is so much more on offer, i.e. night life, arts and cultural scene, shopping, and generally a greater vibrancy and life experience. Let's not lose the run of ourselves. Moving one faculty to the city isn't going to rip UL apart. In the great scheme of things it's a very positive move.

As signified by
http://www.ul.ie/news-centre/news/university-of-limerick-listed-as-one-of-the-worlds-top-100-young-universiti/

http://www.ul.ie/news-centre/features/ul-most-popular-university-in-ireland/

...and to really stick the nail in your argument's coffin:

http://www.ul.ie/news-centre/news/ul-ranked-number-1-in-ireland-by-international-student-survey/


UL is appealing, specifically to parents, because they can with 100% certainty know that their kids will never of necessity have to set foot inside the city boundary of a city with one of the worst reputations (don't get me started on that) in Europe, which is a consistent concern of students and parents coming from North America.

They can experience the difference when they get here, but the simple economics of it is UL will cost itself enrolements, specifically expensive non-EU ones, and therefore money by having programmes offered in the city

pigtown wrote: »

I'm not so sure it would have such a huge effect on the city. Students are generally poor, shopping at Aldi and drinking in their houses before heading to icon. They won't exactly bring an economic benefit with them. I'd imagine the Students Union would operate a shop in this new building and there are bound to be new cafes/restaurants aswell, probably operated by Masterchef like all of the ones on campus. UL also have a policy of building on-campus accomodation so landlords wouldn't be benefitting that much, and if you think students are going to pay for parking everyday then you clearly don't know many students.

Then you have to look at the effect it would have on the students. They pay 2,500 a year for services such as the 70 clubs and societies that exist on campus, the health centre, student councilling, the chaplaincy services, student union etc. Are the students going to be left without these services or will they be replicated in the new building? Will class reps based in the city be entitled to miss lectures so that they can travel to the main campus for meetings? Will staff get travel expenses for when they have to attend meetings and conferences in Plassey?

Then you have to ask which courses could be moved. Design was mentioned but I attended some of their lectures for the course I did so would I be expected to travel to the city or would they run the lectures in both locations? Architecture was also mentioned but personal experience shows that these students work 9-6 Monday-Friday for a longer term than other courses and need the opportunity to unwind with fellow students or in their clubs/socs. I don't think isolating them even more is a good idea. The medical school could have been a good fit as these students have already attended college and are supposedly more mature so may not want the typical student experience, but the new medical school is nearly finished now and I think they will be sharing facilities with the nursing school anyway. So again, who do you move?

There's a lot of false information and premise in that, but I agree with your general point, which I'm taking to be the impracticality and nonsense of the whole thing.

ninty9er

Can someone tell me why the arrival of approx. 1,000 UL students is expected to have a different effect to the extra 2,700 that Mary I now brings compared to 20 years ago when it was a college with 300 students?