Teachers and their summer holidays

Tipp Man

Ciaran0 wrote: »

This is saying that we've fallen back in comparison with other countries but it doesn't say whether we've regressed or (more likely) other countries have progressed. Has the standard of education actually gotten worse? Or is it just that we're not progressing as fast as we should be?

We are not progressing at all - going backwards rapidly relative to our competitors. In summary the report says the following - reading we fell from 5th to 17th place, maths we fell from 16th to 26th place. These falls were the second highest and highest of any country.


Reading

• Between 2000 and 2009, Ireland has fallen from 5th place amongst 39 countries to 17th place.
• This fall is the worst of all countries.
• One in six students in Ireland are estimated to have poor reading skills - 17% are low achievers in reading.
• Almost a quarter of males (23%) achieved an average score which is considered to be below the level of literacy needed to participate effectively in society.

Maths

• Ireland has fallen from 16th place to 26th place in just three years between 2006 and 2009.
• This fall is the second largest of all countries.
• Ireland has significantly fewer students attaining higher proficiency levels than the OECD average: 6.7% compared to 12.7%.

PrincessLola

Ciaran0 wrote: »

This is saying that we've fallen back in comparison with other countries but it doesn't say whether we've regressed or (more likely) other countries have progressed. Has the standard of education actually gotten worse? Or is it just that we're not progressing as fast as we should be?

I would have thought increased immigration would have meant more children for whom English is not their first language, thus bringing down the overall average on reading comprehension.

lily09

Tipp Man wrote: »

We are not progressing at all - going backwards rapidly relative to our competitors. In summary the report says the following - reading we fell from 5th to 17th place, maths we fell from 16th to 26th place. These falls were the second highest and highest of any country.



Reading

• Between 2000 and 2009, Ireland has fallen from 5th place amongst 39 countries to 17th place.
• This fall is the worst of all countries.
• One in six students in Ireland are estimated to have poor reading skills - 17% are low achievers in reading.
• Almost a quarter of males (23%) achieved an average score which is considered to be below the level of literacy needed to participate effectively in society.

Maths

• Ireland has fallen from 16th place to 26th place in just three years between 2006 and 2009.
• This fall is the second largest of all countries.
• Ireland has significantly fewer students attaining higher proficiency levels than the OECD average: 6.7% compared to 12.7%.

http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/education/latest-news/poor-test-results-are-blamed-on-teen-exam-fatigue-3068659.html

Ciaran0

Tipp Man wrote: »

What a ridiculous arguement. Do they receive a paycheck every month of the year (or fornightly)?? Answer yes so they are paid for 12 months. If you want to argue they are only paid for the 8 months they do work then the are the best paid people in the county bar none

Well in fairness, they are doing one of the most important jobs in the country. I do think there are some real problems with the union, in that it's very difficult to get a teacher fired for being a bad teacher. As one of the most important jobs there is, I think there needs to be better measures in place so that the quality of teaching is at it's finest.

Teachers are being paid extra to supervise the state exams, teachers are being paid extra to correct the state exams. That is on top of the fornightly or monthly salary which they still receive for June, July and August - and every other time they are off for that matter

They get paid extra money when they do extra work. There's no problem here.

nehcola

Apologies if anyone has mentioned this already but the fall in results in literacy and numeracy (in comparison to other OECD countries) in the past number of years must have something to do with the increased number of children who have English as a second language. Of course some children/teenagers arrive in Ireland with no English at all. There have also been cuts in English language teachers for these children. This must have been a considerable factor in the falling scores in both maths and English surely?! I have personally heard of primary school classes in recent years which have a minority of children whose first language is English.

St.Spodo

People bemoaning teachers' holidays and time off should've became teachers if they think it is so cushy.

dirtyden

lily09 wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/education/latest-news/poor-test-results-are-blamed-on-teen-exam-fatigue-3068659.html

The guy in the independent obviously read the executive summary in the report and gives a more holistic view of the test scores (probably just to score points off the times).

Ciaran0

Tipp Man wrote: »

We are not progressing at all - going backwards rapidly relative to our competitors. In summary the report says the following - reading we fell from 5th to 17th place, maths we fell from 16th to 26th place. These falls were the second highest and highest of any country.


Reading

• Between 2000 and 2009, Ireland has fallen from 5th place amongst 39 countries to 17th place.
• This fall is the worst of all countries.
• One in six students in Ireland are estimated to have poor reading skills - 17% are low achievers in reading.
• Almost a quarter of males (23%) achieved an average score which is considered to be below the level of literacy needed to participate effectively in society.

Maths

• Ireland has fallen from 16th place to 26th place in just three years between 2006 and 2009.
• This fall is the second largest of all countries.
• Ireland has significantly fewer students attaining higher proficiency levels than the OECD average: 6.7% compared to 12.7%.

But are we regressing or progressing from where we were ourselves. I mean if we're still moving forward it's not half as great a problem as you're making out.

Tipp Man

dirtyden wrote: »

Tipp Man, did you read through the OECD report executive summary.

Admittedly I am pedantic so I had to check.


They gave a number of very sensible reasons for the dramatic drop, top of which was the large increase in non-nationals in the school population which has skewed the scores (they struggle understandably in standardised testing). .

Do they not have foreign nationals in schools in other countries?? Funny a friend of mine in london had a class of 30 and only a couple could speak fluent english - although most had english passports so don't probably count as non-nationals

dirtyden wrote: »

The article also forgot to mention the impressive score in science and digital awareness. That would have got in the way of any agenda though.


The 83% you referred to earlier was an increase in eductaion spending not salaries also.

True that was overall spending, a huge increase in anybody's books - on salaries Secondary teachers increased by 58% between 1999 and 2008 (they increased further after that) and yet our numbers in the most basic educational parameters that are maths and reading have fallen dramatically

No agenda just telling it as it is

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055750520

Tipp Man

Cat.OR wrote: »

And having lived with three teachers I can tell you I've had the opposite experience.... A couple of hours every day.... One actually had 11 start every Tuesday and half day every Thursday and all they did was moan about their pay and it isn't for money...blah blah... They get good wages by any standard.... In the summer all of them took part time jobs or travelled.... You must know some very dedicated teachers cause I haven't had the experience!!! Of course they shouldn't get those holidays, no other public service job does. Nurses, gaurds etc in my mind have harder and more dangerous jobaof far less perks.... And do it with half the moaning... "I have to cope with ten 2 year old"... Boo Hoo don't be a teacher then.

Your experience of teachers is similar to mine - except i still see it every day.

Currently its 4 classes on a Tuesday - starting after the 11 break and 2 or 3 classes on a Wednesay - again starting after the 11 break and finishing at lunch

People really have no idea

Tipp Man

Ciaran0 wrote: »

Well in fairness, they are doing one of the most important jobs in the country. I do think there are some real problems with the union, in that it's very difficult to get a teacher fired for being a bad teacher. As one of the most important jobs there is, I think there needs to be better measures in place so that the quality of teaching is at it's finest.



They get paid extra money when they do extra work. There's no problem here.

I'm not going to get myself hot under the collar by mentioning the most important jobs in the country - wow

Anyway what school work are they doing in June July and August that they need to get paid extra to supervise and correct the state exams???

dirtyden

Tipp Man wrote: »

Do they not have foreign nationals in schools in other countries?? Funny a friend of mine in london had a class of 30 and only a couple could speak fluent english - although most had english passports so don't probably count as non-nationals



True that was overall spending, a huge increase in anybody's books - on salaries Secondary teachers increased by 58% between 1999 and 2008 (they increased further after that) and yet our numbers in the most basic educational parameters that are maths and reading have fallen dramatically

No agenda just telling it as it is

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055750520

I did not mean you had an agenda I was talking about irish journalism
(which tends to be agenda driven). Apologies it did look like that was directed at you.

I think it would be difficult to compare ireland with say the united kingdom without seeing the test population. They tested some selected schools in both countries. You would need to see the breakdown of candidates to make any rational assessment. To be honest that PISA survey although interesting and probably worthwhile is quite unscientific. Giving 15 year olds a test that has no impact whatsoever on their academic progression may just be an assessment of relative apathy between nations. Who could or could not be arsed. The independent article seems to suggest that the irish kids did grand but just did not bother finishing the thing.

If you check out the report the UK literacy decreased dramatically too though, so your point on the london school may support the reasons for lower irish tets scores too.

Ciaran0

Tipp Man wrote: »

I'm not going to get myself hot under the collar by mentioning the most important jobs in the country - wow

A good education system is a cornerstone for modern civilisation. Teaching is a highly important profession. I'm not trying to say that other professions aren't as important so you don't need to work yourself up about it.

Anyway what school work are they doing in June July and August that they need to get paid extra to supervise and correct the state exams???

They get paid a fair amount for the work they do. It's a good wage and the job comes with good perks but it's deserved I think.

c_man

Love the "why don't you try it!" argument, if that's the standard of debate then no wonder Ireland has been dropping so fast in world education tables.

Can I not bitch about politicians, bankers etc. because I haven't chosen that particular path?

dirtyden

c_man wrote: »

Love the "why don't you try it!" argument, if that's the standard of debate then no wonder Ireland has been dropping so fast in world education tables.

Can I not bitch about politicians, bankers etc. because I haven't chosen that particular path?

You are lambasting the standard of debate here by reducing it to the lowest common denominator....politicians and bankers.

Tipp Man

dirtyden wrote: »

I did not mean you had an agenda I was talking about irish journalism
(which tends to be agenda driven). Apologies it did look like that was directed at you.

I think it would be difficult to compare ireland with say the united kingdom without seeing the test population. They tested some selected schools in both countries. You would need to see the breakdown of candidates to make any rational assessment. To be honest that PISA survey although interesting and probably worthwhile is quite unscientific. Giving 15 year olds a test that has no impact whatsoever on their academic progression may just be an assessment of relative apathy between nations. Who could or could not be arsed. The independent article seems to suggest that the irish kids did grand but just did not bother finishing the thing.

If you check out the report the UK literacy decreased dramatically too though, so your point on the london school may support the reasons for lower irish tets scores too.

I could be pedantic and say how the language barrier and apathy didn't seem to effect the science tests and that maths shouldn't be badly effect by language either - but lets not go there;)

In general i agree with you - I usually take these types of reports with a pinch of salt

But we have very little else with which to compare ourselves to our competitors and the fact that the reading and maths have fallen by such a large amount cannot be ignored or simply put down to apathy on the students part.

c_man

dirtyden wrote: »

You are lambasting the standard of debate here by reducing it to the lowest common denominator....politicians and bankers.

Insert any profession you like. Fair City actors for example :pac:

djPSB

gagiteebo wrote: »

You feel hard done by because you had to work hard to fund sessions?

No.

I was very jealous of them that they were getting paid while on a 12 week holiday though!!

Fluffycloud

This kind of dribble drives me mad. I put in hours of work extra in to my class prep and corrections. You can't just walk into a class and presume you are going to have 28 receptive sponges in front of you. Any good teacher plans his/her class to be engaging and stimulating. Imagine you were dealing with 28 different clients every 40 minutes and some of them couldn't concentrate longer than five minutes. I am teaching 25 years and am still willing to learn and improve all the time. I love teaching, I love teaching young people, I love my school.i give 100 per cent of myself to my job and there is not an evening that I don't spend an hour or two preparing work for the next day. I am sick of this teaching bashing!!! In the good old days of the Celtic tiger some people would look down on my profession but its a different story now. If you really envy my job, go back to college for a year and you might really enjoy it or realise that it is not a bed of roses. I am sick sick of teacher bashing. All jobs have their stresses of course! My husband is private sector so I know. He sees the amount of work I do in the evening and will be glad to see me off my computer and away from correcting for a while.

Tipp Man

Ciaran0 wrote: »

They get paid a fair amount for the work they do. It's a good wage and the job comes with good perks but it's deserved I think.

That is completly avoiding my question which is:

Tipp Man wrote: »

Anyway what school work are they doing in June July and August that they need to get paid extra to supervise and correct the state exams???

djPSB

uriah wrote: »

You were a student. Why compare your situation to someone working full-time?
Teachers don't get paid while they are students either.

There is no other job in the world where someone can head off on holidays consistently for 12 weeks of a year while they are getting paid every two weeks!

I am not comparing their holidays or pay to a student. I am comparing them to the average working person.

smash

Fluffycloud wrote: »

This kind of dribble drives me mad. I put in hours of work extra in to my class prep and corrections. You can't just walk into a class and presume you are going to have 28 receptive sponges in front of you. Any good teacher plans his/her class to be engaging and stimulating. Imagine you were dealing with 28 different clients every 40 minutes and some of them couldn't concentrate longer than five minutes. I am teaching 25 years and am still willing to learn and improve all the time. I love teaching, I love teaching young people, I love my school.i give 100 per cent of myself to my job and there is not an evening that I don't spend an hour or two preparing work for the next day. I am sick of this teaching bashing!!! In the good old days of the Celtic tiger some people would look down on my profession but its a different story now. If you really envy my job, go back to college for a year and you might really enjoy it or realise that it is not a bed of roses. I am sick sick of teacher bashing. All jobs have their stresses of course! My husband is private sector so I know. He sees the amount of work I do in the evening and will be glad to see me off my computer and away from correcting for a while.

Ever teach your class how to use proper grammar?

kippy

Tipp Man wrote: »

See this is what sickens me about this country - teachers are way overpaid for the amount of work they do and the entitlements they have

When you highlight this and want to discuss it then you get called a begrudger

how about i am a person who actually wants to see this country get back on its feet again - and having the highest paid teachers in the world working about 65% of the year is not going to get us back anyway - only further into the hole

But if you are happy to have your head buried in the hole then go right ahead - me I'm going to fight to get this country back on track

From behind your keyboard?
How about trying to change it from the bottom up, starting with our youth.
There is a lot of waste in this country but I have to be honest, I believe we have some great educators, possibly being held back by administration, paperwork and a spread of too many subjects. There are arguments to be made to get some of the poorer teachers removed but in general, I believe they work more hours than a lot give them credit for and deal with a lot more **** than many would realise.
Again, it was only when I married a primary school teacher that I realised the amount of work she puts into and amount of interest she has for each and every one of the 34 5 year olds she teaches.

Andy-Pandy

djPSB wrote: »

There is no other job in the world where someone can head off on holidays consistently for 12 weeks of a year while they are getting paid every two weeks!

I can think of one, being a member of the Dail.

Teaching is a tough job, they sign up to it knowing they will get the summer off, its a great perk in a generally tough profession. I have a lot of respect for my friends that are teachers, they all have degrees and could have pursued much higher paying careers. If we want to attract smart, decent people to a job that is very difficult and a job that i know can involve huge emotional attachment you have to offer an upside, and as far as im concerned a summer off is that well deserved perk.

djPSB

Andy-Pandy wrote: »

I can think of one, being a member of the Dail.

Teaching is a tough job, they sign up to it knowing they will get the summer off, its a great perk in a generally tough profession. I have a lot of respect for my friends that are teachers, they all have degrees and could have pursued much higher paying careers. If we want to attract smart, decent people to a job that is very difficult and a job that i know can involve huge emotional attachment you have to offer an upside, and as far as im concerned a summer off is that well deserved perk.

Let them have their holidays.

Don't see why the state has to pay them while they are on holidays though.

dirtyden

Tipp Man wrote: »

I could be pedantic and say how the alanguage barrier and apathy didn't seem to effect the science tests and that maths shouldn't be badly effect by language either - but lets not go there;)

In general i agree with you - I usually take these types of reports with a pinch of salt

But we have very little else with which to compare ourselves to our competitors and the fact that the reading and maths have fallen by such a large amount cannot be ignored or simply put down to apathy on the students part.

I guess the drop in scores is pretty dramatic, but there could be a large number of reasons for this, demographics, societal and also the candidates (ie what schools they picked). The UK performed similarly which should probably be our benchmark.

On your first point I work in a science based industry and none of us can spell thanks to word spellchecker we get away with it.

Fluffycloud

I teach my kids respect, responsibility and a love for learning. Apologies for typos. I am using iPod and not as quick typing as on my laptop. Just finished marking second year exams and was very pleased to see so many doing well. ThatS where I get job satisfaction. Nobody is perfect but I did get first class in my teaching assessment so I know I can do the job. Try work experience next year as a teacher. Maybe it's for you!

I'm really just concerned with the whole 3 months summer holidays thing, it's absolutely crazy. Fair enough if they weren't getting paid for it and it wasn't costing the taxpayer but I doubt their salaries only take into account 9 months of the year. Who the hell can afford to work only 9 months of the year?

Although yeah maybe it is necessary for them to recharge their batteries, if it makes them better teachers in the end, its worth it.

I'm not slagging teachers here, I really believe the teaching profession is one of the most important out there. But it certainly needs to be held in more high regard by the public and entry requirements must be tougher.

true

teachers in this country are underworked and overpaid.

Fluffycloud

Kippy, worksheets, class plans, class tests, word lists are all prepared in the evening using a laptop. Technology is part of teaching now! Interactive website etc. The days of chalk and talk are long gone! You should know better.