Teachers and their summer holidays

bb1234567

Deleted User wrote: »

Why on earth do teachers at both primary and secondary schools get three and four months of summer holidays respectively? And why do they get paid for it? Wouldn't their talents and time, and public money be better spent if they stayed at the schools and helped weaker students who fail exams, etc. Any student who performs poorly in exams, etc. or performs badly in general during the school year should attend summer school to help them progress and the teachers should be there to facilitate this. If no students fail exams couldn't the teachers be sent to Africa as part of Irish educational aid or something similarly productive? It just seems like a huge waste educating these teachers, paying them a salary and then giving them 3/4 months off to do as they please.

What teacher gets 4 months holidays?Thats exaggerating it completely, at the very most its about three months and in the public primary schools its 2 months.

Tipp Man

endacl wrote: »

On a separate note.... Delighted to be taking cash from Tipp Man. Long may it continue.

I hope that visa comes through pretty rapidly so;)

recylingbin

They get underpaid.
Good luck to them.

endacl

Tipp Man wrote: »

I hope that visa comes through pretty rapidly so;)

Oh, the northside visa thingy?

A Dublin thing. You probably wouldn't understand....

Fire1985

Teachers deserve the time off, stop complaining.
What bugs me is all the people becoming teachers through hibernia. It's complete bull! I mean they become teachers ONLINE!
It's an insult to all the good PROPER , REAL teachers.
There all in the job now coz it's handy and they have loads of time off! Hibernia teachers are **** !
Fact.
Rant over . Ahhhhhhh

Dave0301

Tipp Man wrote: »

No the problem is we are paying for a world class education system - our teachers are 1 of the highest paid in the world

But our standards are falling dramatically - we no longer have a world class education system

So we are paying but not getting it back

You keep making your point about how Irish teachers are overpaid compared to
their counterparts, however you neglect to take into account Ireland's high cost of living compared to other countries.

Also Ireland has the third highest minimum wage in Europe, so going by that logic, a lot of Irish workers must be overpaid compared to their counter parts abroad?

Tipp Man

Dave0301 wrote: »

You keep making your point about how Irish teachers are overpaid compared to
their counterparts, however you neglect to take into account Ireland's high cost of living compared to other countries.

Also Ireland has the third highest minimum wage in Europe, so going by that logic, a lot of Irish workers must be overpaid compared to their counter parts abroad?

Alot of Irish workers are overpaid compared to their counterparts abroad - both private but especially public sector

Ask any employer - and especially a multinational - and they'll say the same thing - there are very few countries in the world where wages are higher - yet this country is flat out broke at government level and personal debt is huge - that equation doesn't work

The main reason why we have a high cost of living is that we left wages spiral out of control in the last decade. Germany for example in the same period actually REDUCED its wages to make it competitive - could you ever see that happening in Ireland

Dave0301

Tipp Man wrote: »

Alot of Irish workers are overpaid compared to their counterparts abroad - both private but especially public sector

Ask any employer - and especially a multinational - and they'll say the same thing - there are very few countries in the world where wages are higher - yet this country is flat out broke at government level and personal debt is huge - that equation doesn't work

The main reason why we have a high cost of living is that we left wages spiral out of control in the last decade. Germany for example in the same period acutally REDUCED its wages to make it competitive - could you ever see that happening in Ireland

Yes I can, as they have reduced salaries for NQTs in Ireland already and there are plans afoot to withdraw the allowances that were once there for academic qualifications that a teacher could attain.

Couple this with the fact that many teachers are struggling to make ends meet due to woeful job opportunities, it really isn't all sunshine and lollipops like everyone outside the profession likes to think. Imagine every 9 months unemployment rolls around again cos you didn't have a permanent contract and were only subbing/maternity leave. No idea if September will bring back a stable income. Not to mention teaching is a damn hard job anyway!

It's a recession, everyone is hurting, teachers too!

mariaalice

Why do people get so exited over teachers holidays, so what if they get 3 months holidays.

looksee

Ok folks. Suggestion. All teachers stop contributing to threads in AH about teaching. Most of it is winding and trolling. Apparently you are allowed to do this in AH.

If you just stop responding the trolls will have to pick on some other group. In fact if you had any sense you would start a thread about the ignorance and stupidity of barmen, or factory workers - now there is a group of space wasters - and you could throw around anecdotal stuff and make up numbers. After all we have all been served in a bar, and we all use stuff that is made in factories, so we are entitled to an opinion. And since this is AH it doesn't matter whether the opinion has any foundation.

limerickhurl

Tipp Man wrote: »

I am well aware of the reality of teaching - i see it every single day

And they are taking the country for an absolute ride - but i call a spade a spade and get called a begrudger and having a chip on my shoulder

NOBODY can justify a teachers salary and benefits for the work they do - especially secondary teachers

Nobody can justify?

I think most people on here have.

dirtyden

Tipp Man wrote: »

I sure can

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2011/1015/1224305838288.html

Any OECD or international report in the last few years says exactly the same thing i.e wages increased dramtically (83% in a few years) while standards of numeracy and literacy have fallen dramatically

How did they generate these figures. What are they comparing with what.
Diffcult to judge an article that wont quote anything from the report and just uses words like dramatic rather than quoting the source.

See this link

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/education/7126388.stm

We appear to be doing quite well, sixth in the world in terms of literacy.

Scored similar in maths to germany france and the UK.

I am not saying the OECD report is wrong but from that article I can't make any rational judgement. Is it selective agenda driven journalism. The irish media do seem to constantly smell public sector blood.

Tipp Man

Dave0301 wrote: »

Yes I can, as they have reduced salaries for NQTs in Ireland already and there are plans afoot to withdraw the allowances that were once there for academic qualifications that a teacher could attain.

Couple this with the fact that many teachers are struggling to make ends meet due to woeful job opportunities, it really isn't all sunshine and lollipops like everyone outside the profession likes to think. Imagine every 9 months unemployment rolls around again cos you didn't have a permanent contract and were only subbing/maternity leave. No idea if September will bring back a stable income. Not to mention teaching is a damn hard job anyway!

It's a recession, everyone is hurting, teachers too!

There is nobody to blame for the lack of mobility in the teacher job market only teachers - actually their unions to be more specific. This job for life mentality means that it is next to impossible to sack a teacher and the idea of career progression due to length of service is quite frankly a joke

you then have thousands of people do Arts and Hdips every year when the jobs aren't there for them, the supply is too great for the demand - mainly because you can't get rid of a teacher once he is permanent - no matter how crap he/she is - are there are thousands that are crap

if people can't get jobs as teachers they need to retrain - the same as builders, plumbers, factory workers and everybody else

araic88

This thread is gas, a fair bit of ignorance evident I have to say!
I've a friend who is thinking of doing teaching (in college she planned to go into a far more glamorous career til things went belly up and she admits to joining the 'teachers have it so cushy!' bandwagon) She came in to observe me/my class for a day so I planned a fairly low-key, quiet kind of day so as not to scare with the kind of chaotic banana-madness my mad hatter class can descend into at certain times :rolleyes: I thought it was a lovely, relatively easy day - she pretty much wailed with tiredness as soon as the kids had gone, she said she hadn't had a minute to herself (?!) and was wrecked - she was only observing! She also said she didn't know how I cope everyday with such needy kids. By the way that the kids are shoved into school in September, I'd say the parents feel the same after minding one or two for the summer Try minding 30 and making sure they all progress well academically. I didn't read all of this thread so apologies if it has already been added, but I found this quite funny:

Teachers’ hefty salaries are driving up taxes, and they only work 9 or 10 months a year. It’s time we put things in perspective and pay them for what they do – babysit. We can get that for less than minimum wage.
That’s right. Let’s give them $3 an hour and only the hours they worked; not any of that silly planning time, or any time they spend before or after school. That would be $19.50 a day (7:45 to 3:00 PM with 45 min. off for lunch and plan– that equals 6 1/2 hours).
Each parent should pay $19.50 a day for these teachers to baby-sit their children. Now how many students do they teach in a day…maybe 30? So that’s $19.50 x 30 = $585.00 a day.
However, remember they only work 180 days a year. I am not going to pay them for any vacations.
LET’S SEE…That’s $585 X 180= $105,300 per year. (Hold on. My calculator needs new batteries.)
What about those special education teachers and the ones with master’s degrees? Well, we could pay them minimum wage ($7.75), and just to be fair, round it off to $8.00 an hour. That would be $8 X 6 1/2 hours X 30 children X 180 days = $280,800 per year.
Wait a minute — there’s something wrong here. There sure is.
The average teacher’s salary (nationwide) is $50,000. $50,000/180 days = $277.77/per day/30 students=$9.25/6.5 hours = $1.42 per hour per student– a very inexpensive baby-sitter and they even EDUCATE your kids!)
WHAT A DEAL!

And for the better able pupils amongst you - some more reading :P

Teachers...
We perform for hours every day, like actors and actresses. That's like an actor or actress being onstage every night at 8pm until the show ends at 1.45am in the morning!!!
Picture it:
You're the main actor on stage the entire show except for one 10 min reprieve for a set change around 9.30pm and the interval at 11pm last for 20mins during which the audience run out and go bananas. You ...have to make all your own costumes, write your own scripts, paint, decorate and maintain your own sets, buy the materials for the production yourself, often out of your wages. During the interval you may have to clean the theatre or else stay after the show and clean up the popcorn etc as the theatre cannot afford full-time cleaning staff. Some shows are scripted and some shows are improvised. If an audience member gets sick during the show you must clean it up, administer First Aid, call someone to take them home but: THE SHOW MUST GO ON while you do the above. So you have to work it into your character somehow.
You have to write a press release before every show about what you are going to do, and a review of every single show about how you did. You have heard that the top critics in the country are doing the rounds of various productions and arriving in theatres unannounced and looking for VIP access all area badges. You therefore are running Waiting for Godot in your head while simultaneously actually performing Mary Poppins on stage. The audience must not only follow every plot line, but you have to make sure that they know a lot of your script off by heart by the time they leave the theatre.
That's ok for the one's who bought their own tickets so you know they want to be there. But a percentage of the audience were forced to come, have no interest in any kind of a show at all and get constantly distracted by the front of house staff and other non-interested patrons. The n there are the ones who don't understand the lanuage you're speaking.
It doesn't matter who threw tomatoes at you for yesterday's performance, you must treat them all as if they are in the Royal Box. The bosses in the management office are only really interested in the bottom financial line at this stage and they will evaluate your performance by the ability of the audience to recite your script by heart...

Anyway, I do think there are perks to teaching, but also huge demands and responsibilities. That's probably the same with a lot of jobs, but teaching seems to be an easy target. If you begrudge teachers so much maybe you're just miserable in your own job?! :P

Tipp Man

limerickhurl wrote: »

Nobody can justify?

I think most people on here have.

Ah nobody - teacher or otherwise - has justified their salary relative to the hours worked, the holidays given, the job security, the defined benefit pension

byhookorbycrook

Ghost Buster wrote: »

Sack the bad teachers i say!!!!!!!!!


Oh yeah. You cant do that:(

errr...yes you can.but don't let facts get in your way.

Dave0301

Tipp Man wrote: »

There is nobody to blame for the lack of mobility in the teacher job market only teachers - actually their unions to be more specific. This job for life mentality means that it is next to impossible to sack a teacher and the idea of career progression due to length of service is quite frankly a joke

you then have thousands of people do Arts and Hdips every year when the jobs aren't there for them, the supply is too great for the demand - mainly because you can't get rid of a teacher once he is permanent - no matter how crap he/she is - are there are thousands that are crap

if people can't get jobs as teachers they need to retrain - the same as builders, plumbers, factory workers and everybody else

So going by your logic anyone who is unemployed now it's solely their fault for training in that sector?

Tipp Man

dirtyden wrote: »

How did they generate these figures. What are they comparing with what.
Diffcult to judge an article that wont quote anything from the report and just uses words like dramatic rather than quoting the source.

See this link

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/education/7126388.stm

We appear to be doing quite well, sixth in the world in terms of literacy.

Scored similar in maths to germany france and the UK.

I am not saying the OECD report is wrong but from that article I can't make any rational judgement. Is it selective agenda driven journalism. The irish media do seem to constantly smell public sector blood.

That bbc report is from the early 2000's i believe.

Anyway here are some stats from OECD - the link will have the OECD report somewhere in it http://www.politicalworld.org/showthread.php?t=5931


Some highlights - or should i say lowlights - are as follows

Irish education regressed under Fianna Fáil since 2000: OECD


The OECD Report out today (Tuesday) has exposed the truth about how education in Ireland fared under 10 years of Fianna Fáil government with the results showing that the country has regressed in key areas according to Fine Gael Education Spokesman, Fergus O’Dowd TD.

According to the Programme for International Student Assessment (PISA) Report, there have been significant declines in standards among Irish students in maths and literacy skills.

“The truth has been exposed: Under Fianna Fáil, Irish education regressed and our students have fallen further behind their international counterparts.

“The PISA Report findings in three key areas make for depressing reading and highlight just how our students have been failed by successive Fianna Fáil Governments:

Reading

• Between 2000 and 2009, Ireland has fallen from 5th place amongst 39 countries to 17th place.
• This fall is the worst of all countries.
• One in six students in Ireland are estimated to have poor reading skills - 17% are low achievers in reading.
• Almost a quarter of males (23%) achieved an average score which is considered to be below the level of literacy needed to participate effectively in society.

Maths

• Ireland has fallen from 16th place to 26th place in just three years between 2006 and 2009.
• This fall is the second largest of all countries.
• Ireland has significantly fewer students attaining higher proficiency levels than the OECD average: 6.7% compared to 12.7%.

limerickhurl

Tipp Man wrote: »

There is nobody to blame for the lack of mobility in the teacher job market only teachers - actually their unions to be more specific. This job for life mentality means that it is next to impossible to sack a teacher and the idea of career progression due to length of service is quite frankly a joke

you then have thousands of people do Arts and Hdips every year when the jobs aren't there for them, the supply is too great for the demand - mainly because you can't get rid of a teacher once he is permanent - no matter how crap he/she is - are there are thousands that are crap

if people can't get jobs as teachers they need to retrain - the same as builders, plumbers, factory workers and everybody else

So you're saying if, in the current difficult job climate that is because of teachers/unions, we want to leave the profession and retrain we should do the same as the builders, factory workers and plumbers. The same builders, factory workers and plumbers who also had to get loans to put them through university is it?

I am certainly in no way hugely defensive of teaching as a profession. Some of the points you bring up, such as bad teachers having a job for life with little to no regulation in the profession, are salient and I agree with you fully. Also, I don't like the unions - I feel they give little voice to the newly qualified teacher and are, to a large extent, self-serving (case in point - the amount of retired teaching doing the supervision of exams). But you seem determined to get a rise out of the teachers here, with your ill-informed and insular arguments.

I am well aware that you seem to be winding up the teachers on here. And I am considering going the opposite route to having a constructive discussion with you about it; namely, going on about the lie-in I'll have next Tuesday while the rest of the country are at work. But to me, that's too easy. Everything that needs to be said on this thread has been said, I think. And I think the intelligent people, teachers and non-teachers alike, see that.

Tipp Man

Dave0301 wrote: »

So going by your logic anyone who is unemployed now it's solely their fault for training in that sector?

Not saying that at all - what i am saying is that the teachers unions have closed the shop and are allowing completly imcompetant and quite frankly rubbish teachers to stay in well paid jobs while potentially good teachers can't get work because the auld gits can't be moved. Coupled with the fact that we are producing too many teachers in the wrong subjects every year means we have an over supply

So young teachers have two options: go down the route you said of trying to get hours covering sick, maternity etc or change career by reskilling

They are no different to anybody else coming out of uni

Ciaran0

Deleted User wrote: »

Why on earth do teachers at both primary and secondary schools get three and four months of summer holidays respectively?And why do they get paid for it?

They actually don't get paid for their holidays. They get paid for the work they do during the term.Their salary is just given to them throughout the whole year. It's not like they're getting paid extra when doing nothing. As for the holidays being so long, well there are the exams, and then the correcting of exams takes a fair amount of time, and the holidays they deserve. I do think the school year could be maybe a month longer, but there are people in schools who work through the summer.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Deleted User wrote: »

Why on earth do teachers at both primary and secondary schools get three and four months of summer holidays respectively?
I want more holidays, It;s not fair. They ge them and I don't.

FYP

Tipp Man

limerickhurl wrote: »

So you're saying if, in the current difficult job climate that is because of teachers/unions, we want to leave the profession and retrain we should do the same as the builders, factory workers and plumbers. The same builders, factory workers and plumbers who also had to get loans to put them through university is it?.

Firstly there are plenty in the building trade with uni degrees and a whole lot more - quantity surveyors, architects, engineers etc etc. So no need to play the univeristy educated card

Secondly I meant the principle of re-skilling - not necessaryily doing the same jobs as plumbers or factory workers

limerickhurl wrote: »

I am certainly in no way hugely defensive of teaching as a profession. Some of the points you bring up, such as bad teachers having a job for life with little to no regulation in the profession, are salient and I agree with you fully. Also, I don't like the unions - I feel they give little voice to the newly qualified teacher and are, to a large extent, self-serving (case in point - the amount of retired teaching doing the supervision of exams). But you seem determined to get a rise out of the teachers here, with your ill-informed and insular arguments.

I am well aware that you seem to be winding up the teachers on here. And I am considering going the opposite route to having a constructive discussion with you about it; namely, going on about the lie-in I'll have next Tuesday while the rest of the country are at work. But to me, that's too easy. Everything that needs to be said on this thread has been said, I think. And I think the intelligent people, teachers and non-teachers alike, see that.

Exactly what have i said that makes you think i am winding you or anybody up? I'm just calling it as i see it

Ciaran0

Tipp Man wrote: »

That bbc report is from the early 2000's i believe.

Anyway here are some stats from OECD - the link will have the OECD report somewhere in it http://www.politicalworld.org/showthread.php?t=5931


Some highlights - or should i say lowlights - are as follows

Irish education regressed under Fianna Fáil since 2000: OECD


The OECD Report out today (Tuesday) has exposed the truth about how education in Ireland fared under 10 years of Fianna Fáil government with the results showing that the country has regressed in key areas according to Fine Gael Education Spokesman, Fergus O’Dowd TD.

According to the Programme for International Student Assessment (PISA) Report, there have been significant declines in standards among Irish students in maths and literacy skills.

“The truth has been exposed: Under Fianna Fáil, Irish education regressed and our students have fallen further behind their international counterparts.

“The PISA Report findings in three key areas make for depressing reading and highlight just how our students have been failed by successive Fianna Fáil Governments:

Reading

• Between 2000 and 2009, Ireland has fallen from 5th place amongst 39 countries to 17th place.
• This fall is the worst of all countries.
• One in six students in Ireland are estimated to have poor reading skills - 17% are low achievers in reading.
• Almost a quarter of males (23%) achieved an average score which is considered to be below the level of literacy needed to participate effectively in society.

Maths

• Ireland has fallen from 16th place to 26th place in just three years between 2006 and 2009.
• This fall is the second largest of all countries.
• Ireland has significantly fewer students attaining higher proficiency levels than the OECD average: 6.7% compared to 12.7%.

This is saying that we've fallen back in comparison with other countries but it doesn't say whether we've regressed or (more likely) other countries have progressed. Has the standard of education actually gotten worse? Or is it just that we're not progressing as fast as we should be?

limerickhurl

Tipp Man wrote: »

Firstly there are plenty in the building trade with uni degrees and a whole lot more - quantity surveyors, architects, engineers etc etc. So no need to play the univeristy educated card

Secondly I meant the principle of re-skilling - not necessaryily doing the same jobs as plumbers or factory workers




Exactly what have i said that makes you think i am winding you or anybody up? I'm just calling it as i see it

Forget builders then. What about factory workers and plumbers?

Your belief that teachers are over-paid and under-worked will not change. So be it. I was always told never to argue with a fool, as they will only bring you down to their level.

Now I'm off to plan for my Summer holidays.

Tipp Man

Ciaran0 wrote: »

They actually don't get paid for their holidays. They get paid for the work they do during the term.Their salary is just given to them throughout the whole year. It's not like they're getting paid extra when doing nothing..

What a ridiculous arguement. Do they receive a paycheck every month of the year (or fornightly)?? Answer yes so they are paid for 12 months. If you want to argue they are only paid for the 8 months they do work then the are the best paid people in the county bar none

Ciaran0 wrote: »

As for the holidays being so long, well there are the exams, and then the correcting of exams takes a fair amount of time, and the holidays they deserve. I do think the school year could be maybe a month longer, but there are people in schools who work through the summer.

Teachers are being paid extra to supervise the state exams, teachers are being paid extra to correct the state exams. That is on top of the fornightly or monthly salary which they still receive for June, July and August - and every other time they are off for that matter

Tipp Man

limerickhurl wrote: »

Forget builders then. What about factory workers and plumbers?.

Did you read what i actually wrote - i said the principle of changing skills - not changing to the same skills as factory workers or plumbers that you seem to look down on.

limerickhurl wrote: »

Your belief that teachers are over-paid and under-worked will not change. So be it. I was always told never to argue with a fool, as they will only bring you down to their level.

Now I'm off to plan for my Summer holidays.

You are 1 of many to personally insult me in this thread - but there we go - if you can't agrue then insult

dirtyden

Tipp Man, did you read through the OECD report executive summary.

Admittedly I am pedantic so I had to check.


They gave a number of very sensible reasons for the dramatic drop, top of which was the large increase in non-nationals in the school population which has skewed the scores (they struggle understandably in standardised testing).

The article also forgot to mention the impressive score in science and digital awareness. That would have got in the way of any agenda though.


The 83% you referred to earlier was an increase in eductaion spending not salaries also.

bob the bob

forfuxsake wrote: »

I've done a few jobs in me life and teaching is one of them. It's also the hardest. It's pretty much non-stop for when you are teaching. It's not like the typical job in which you can shuffle papers if you are tired/hungover/depressed. It takes a lot of attention, concentration, effort and energy and you have to be alert the whole time. Every June I have felt that I really couldn't handle another month without imploding. But I looked forward to starting back from mid-august.

I easily had 3-5 classes a week in secondary school where the teacher just didn't turn up, no explanation offered and no sub teacher.

I used not come in on Wednesday afternoons for a whole year as we only had double-english and a study period. The english teacher was the vice principal too so would show up for 2 minutes, ask us to read something or other and then bugger off.

Cat.OR

chatterpillar wrote: »

Any teacher that I know spends a large proportion of the start of their summer holidays clearing up work from the year before, writing reports, cleaning and tidying their classroom, catching up on paperwork, etc.

They also spend most of August working on booklists, preparing work for the coming year, organising classes, etc.

Oh and they also usually spend a week of their summer doing a "course", so that they can get their three days off during the school year. Yes, I know they still get midterms and Christmas holidays, but personally I'd hate to be in a job where I only got three days off of my choosing during the year - and, then, only if I did a course (out of my holiday time) to get those three days!)

I've never envied teachers, it's not an easy job, and certainly not one I'd ever be willing or able to do.

And having lived with three teachers I can tell you I've had the opposite experience.... A couple of hours every day.... One actually had 11 start every Tuesday and half day every Thursday and all they did was moan about their pay and it isn't for money...blah blah... They get good wages by any standard.... In the summer all of them took part time jobs or travelled.... You must know some very dedicated teachers cause I haven't had the experience!!! Of course they shouldn't get those holidays, no other public service job does. Nurses, gaurds etc in my mind have harder and more dangerous jobaof far less perks.... And do it with half the moaning... "I have to cope with ten 2 year old"... Boo Hoo don't be a teacher then.