Teachers and their summer holidays

Red Pepper

Aineoil wrote: »

Yeah and Pádraic O Conaire was executed......you did re-quote that.

Come on now Aineoil, you re-quoted that Pearse was gay...

Since when is re-quoting a crime?

LizT

Armelodie wrote: »

Firstly, dont even mention UK fees...have a look at entrance jobs for teachers in the uk..Permanent positions straight off and a lot of the ones ive looked at offer to pay for any further training costs... In ireland teaching has become a part time profession, even for people well into their fifth year after leaving college.

Would nt you also say that a guard or a nurse or a doctor also gets their fees subsidised (what's the fees for templemore btw?)... BUT... They also get paid whilst training on the job...? Correct me if I'm wrong but fas apprenticeships got paid on block release too, no?

do teachers?

I never got the college grant either btw !

Not really sure what point you're trying to make here to be honest. There's plently of college courses that require their students to do work placements as part of their course and not get paid for it. Mine did, at a considerable cost to myself actually. The job situation for my profession is worse than the one for teachers in this country at the minute.

Student teachers aren't the only ones required to do unpaid placements. And in fairness, they know exactly what they're signing up for.

LizT

andyman wrote: »

Btw, LizT, I'm reporting you for plagiarism for stealing my "Location:" without relevant citing and referencing.

I, eh, put it in the footnotes
>_>
<_<
>_>

Been using it for ages and never noticed anyone else using it, high 5 location buddy

evolving_doors

Boombastic wrote: »

Sure what else would it be only part time if your contact is for 22 hours / week, 174 days of the year?

Do you know what contact time means? Do you think we sit in the staffroom smoking a pipe reading the Irish Times between classes?
Is this your perception of education today?

Just as a matter of interest Whats yer own job btw?

Foxtrol

Armelodie wrote: »

You havn't really been following the replies have you, basically (yet again) the summer holidays thing are a legacy issue and teachers get paid on a 9/12 pro rata basis.

If you want me to work the summer Im all for it. Presume you are happy to give me a pay rise too.

Btw teachers dont get paid for the summer..

9/12

Answer that.

Took a day off this but once again it’s gone around in a circle. Like the last time this argument was made, when teachers say they want more money for working anytime outside of the 9 months it really only highlights how high their pro-rata rate is and it doesn’t help their position (which is the exact reason teachers/unions don’t ever mentioning the 9/12 thing when comparing salaries to other professions).

Boombastic

Armelodie wrote: »

...Speaking of the effect of long holidays on childhood development, have you any research to help us along seeing as you raised the issue....?

Ok seen as there is an increase in children who's first language is not English and other vulnerable students from poor backgrounds and literacy problems, here's some about how learning loss over the summer holidays impacts negatively on them
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summer_learning_loss

silverlinings

There are many reasons behind the "long" holidays teachers get. I am a qualified primary teacher and I have worked both here in national schools and abroad in private schools. When I worked abroad I taught 5-7 year olds and 7-9 year olds. We taught from 8 until 3.10, 5 days a week, we had exams every 4 weeks and then finals at the end of each term.I should also say with those exams I would have received on average 300 exams over 2 nights to be corrected and handed back by the end of the week. Having been at the receiving end of those parents crying, shouting, pleading and begging for the hours in school to be lessened, I don't think we should be complaining at all. The issue is not really how many hours a teacher works its more about the quality of work put in during those hours. The children I taught abroad would be absolutely burned out from work come 2o'clock and I was expected to drag another hour of work out of them. We had a lot less holidays than schools here do and let me tell you it certainly did not make us a more productive school in any sense, and I am including teachers and students here.

The holidays are a time for the children and teachers to recuperate and re-energize. Teachers have a high burn out rate because like it or not we have a busy job from the moment you step foot in the classroom your attention is with the 20 or so children in your care, you must cater to all their learning needs, special needs and sensitivities as well as getting through a curriculum. I am not saying that teaching is the hardest job in the world but I would like to see people who bad mouth teachers try it and see how they fare...don't knock it til you've tried it!

evolving_doors

LizT wrote: »

Not really sure what point you're trying to make here to be honest. There's plently of college courses that require their students to do work placements as part of their course and not get paid for it. Mine did, at a considerable cost to myself actually. The job situation for my profession is worse than the one for teachers in this country at the minute.

Student teachers aren't the only ones required to do unpaid placements. And in fairness, they know exactly what they're signing up for.

Sorry I thought you were supposed to be following this thread...you seem a little distracted with andyman...

my whole point came from a comment from someone that teachers should get paid less than guards... The issue I felt was that you can;t compare professions and was highlighting the disparity between payment and training in other professions. The fact that subsequent posters have shown that their experiences are different shows that you just cant compare professions.

Ive tried to compare but failed, but I've succeeded in proving that you cant compare,thanks to everyone elses help.

The fact that other posters still persist in comparing teaching to other jobs is dragging this thread off topic, as there are too many variables with comparing jobs, not to mention the public vs. private sector 'debate'.

So if people still persist in comparing I think the best way forward is for me to ask what their profession is?

But alas, some people on here are well equipped to criticise other peoples jobs, but when it comes to their own they are a little bit shy.

LizT

Armelodie wrote: »

Sorry I thought you were supposed to be following this thread...you seem a little distracted with andyman...

my whole point came from a comment from someone that teachers should get paid less than guards... The issue I felt was that you can;t compare professions and was highlighting the disparity between payment and training in other professions. The fact that subsequent posters have shown that their experiences are different shows that you just cant compare professions.

Ive tried to compare but failed, but I've succeeded in proving that you cant compare,thanks to everyone elses help.

The fact that other posters still persist in comparing teachers to other jobs is dragging this thread off topic, as there are too many variables with comparing jobs, not to mention the public vs. private sector 'debate'.

So if people still persist in comparing I think the best way forward is for me to ask what their profession is?

But alas, some people on here are well equipped to criticise other peoples jobs, but when it comes to the own they are a little bit shy.

Little tip, no need for the petty jibes, it completely undermines the point you're trying to make.

If I told you what my job is (starting next week actually), you'd laugh You seem to assume I have some sort of axe to grind with teachers when the reality is in fact the opposite.

evolving_doors

Foxtrol wrote: »

Took a day off this but once again it’s gone around in a circle. Like the last time this argument was made, when teachers say they want more money for working anytime outside of the 9 months it really only highlights how high their pro-rata rate is and it doesn’t help their position (which is the exact reason teachers/unions don’t ever mentioning the 9/12 thing when comparing salaries to other professions).

Im glad you agree that it's come back around the circle so I hope we can all accept what this 9/12 fraction means. Also the 3 months is a legacy issue with saving the hay and all that.

Because teachers unions are inept... have a look at the CP2 thread on T&L forum. Many Teachers (not all mind!) have nothing but disdain for the unions and their selling out of the profession.

Whats your own profession BTW foxtroll? Just so we can attempt to compare.

Boombastic

Armelodie wrote: »

Im glad you agree that it's come back around the circle so I hope we can all accept what this 9/12 fraction means. Also the 3 months is a legacy issue with saving the hay and all that.

Because teachers unions are inept... have a look at the CP2 thread on T&L forum. Many Teachers (not all mind!) have nothing but disdain for the unions and their selling out of the profession.

Whats your own profession BTW foxtroll? Just so we can attempt to compare.

Are you not going to comment on the research you asked for and I supplied?

evolving_doors

LizT wrote: »

Little tip, no need for the petty jibes, it completely undermines the point you're trying to make.

If I told you what my job is (starting next week actually), you'd laugh You seem to assume I have some sort of axe to grind with teachers when the reality is in fact the opposite.

Ya fair enough the jibe was indeed petty...apologies.

I wont ask what your job/salary/holidays/qualifications are as a little apology gift...

Anyway, point still stands, if people want to have a dig at teachers its only fair they man up and say what their own bread and butter is. Is that too much to ask?

Rightwing

Nurses > Teachers > Gardaí.

But they all do a good job imo

evolving_doors

Boombastic wrote: »

Ok seen as there is an increase in children who's first language is not English and other vulnerable students from poor backgrounds and literacy problems, here's some about how learning loss over the summer holidays impacts negatively on them
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summer_learning_loss

So thats your ace in the hole, foreign kids cant practice their English? I think you'll also find that there has been cutbacks throughout the year for this vulnerable group? Is that the teachers fault.. maybe we should bring in more teachers to teach them for free, considering that's what we'd be doing over the summer if you had your way.

From wikipedia too, nice...you must have plucked that from your PHd thesis references.

Boombastic

Armelodie wrote: »

So thats your ace in the hole, foreign kids cant practice their English? I think you'll also find that there has been cutbacks throughout the year for this vulnerable group? Is that the teachers fault.. maybe we should bring in more teachers to teach them for free, considering that's what we'd be doing over the summer if you had your way.

From wikipedia too, nice...you must have plucked that from your PHd thesis references.

I know by your answer you didn't even read half of it, never mind it might be a bit complicated. Any links from yourself to show it's benefits?

I take from your reply that the influx of students with English as an additional language has had no effect in the classroom?

Shtanto

Consider also that many teachers are also parents and that excellent quality time can be shared during the summer months. Teachers earn their time off. </necro>

Foxtrol

Armelodie wrote: »

Im glad you agree that it's come back around the circle so I hope we can all accept what this 9/12 fraction means. Also the 3 months is a legacy issue with saving the hay and all that.

Because teachers unions are inept... have a look at the CP2 thread on T&L forum. Many Teachers (not all mind!) have nothing but disdain for the unions and their selling out of the profession.

Whats your own profession BTW foxtroll? Just so we can attempt to compare.

Yes, the fraction means that when teachers compare their salary to other professions it should be annualised, not compared 9/12 to 12/12 which is what is generally done, apples to oranges if you will. Makes teachers salary look mighty cushy.

Again with the diversionary tactic of ‘what’s your job?’. My job has nothing to do with this discussion just like a teachers job would have no relation to a thread questioning a perk about my job.

Catari Jaguar

I'm not gonna justify anything because no one wants to hear that and will ignore it and rabble anyways, so I will share my day. Today I slept in til 11:30 then met a friend, went for lunch, then for a scenic coastal drive to sunny Howth for ice cream, relaxed with some yoga practice and played Guitar Hero for a while, all before my OH came home from work. Love my summer holidays. My friend's also a teacher. I hope you guys were as productive. Have a good day at work tomorrow

Rightwing

Catari Jaguar wrote: »

I'm not gonna justify anything because no one wants to hear that and will ignore it and rabble anyways, so I will share my day. Today I slept in til 11:30 then met a friend, went for lunch, then for a scenic coastal drive to sunny Howth for ice cream, relaxed with some yoga practice and played Guitar Hero for a while, all before my OH came home from work. Love my summer holidays. My friend's also a teacher. I hope you guys were as productive. Have a good day at work tomorrow

You mean you weren't doing up notes and plans ? :eek:

Boombastic

Boombastic wrote: »

It always comes back to the money with the teachers. How about the effect of long holidays on a child's development?

Well as discussed eariler country's with a supposed better education system than Ireland have less class room hours per year and places like the US who have the type of summer school nonsense being mentioned here have a terrible education record.

Foxtrol wrote: »

Again with the diversionary tactic of ‘what’s your job?’. My job has nothing to do with this discussion just like a teachers job would have no relation to a thread questioning a perk about my job.

These types of thread pop up every so often for different public sector jobs and different posters get involved bashing the said area of the public sector but one thing all these posters have in common is the down right refusal to even give an indication of their own profession. It makes them much harder to take serious.

andyman

LizT summed it up earlier, the petty jibes makes it so much harder to take posts seriously.

The consistent nature from both sides (myself included) prove that this thread has run it's course and that it's just turning into a slagging match at this stage.

The Teachers (or at least some) are taking things too seriously while the bashers are just throwing **** against the wall and hoping some of it sticks. It's constant going around in circles is draining.

There's debates then there's this, which is a debate that's clearly run its course.

evolving_doors

Foxtrol wrote: »

Yes, the fraction means that when teachers compare their salary to other professions it should be annualised, not compared 9/12 to 12/12 which is what is generally done, apples to oranges if you will. Makes teachers salary look mighty cushy.

The 9/12 accounts for the summer. This IS the annualised salary teachers get. I dont get 12/12 or 50K or whatever you call it.

12/12 looks mighty cushy alright, but hey 50/12 looks even better, how about 100,000/12.... But no, the salary is what it is on my payslip. Actually if you say 12/12 looks mighty cushy then you have to admit that 9/12 actually means teachers are well under paid!

Foxtrol wrote: »

Again with the diversionary tactic of ‘what’s your job?’. My job has nothing to do with this discussion just like a teachers job would have no relation to a thread questioning a perk about my job.

Well it's like this, if I have to spend so much time pointing out inaccuracies and setting people straight about what the job actually entails then its fair enough to ask what other people do for a comparison.There's enough spin and rabble rousing in the media to set us all at our throats but shur I'll keep plugging away at the 'experts' who havn;t a clue.

Has anyone ever complained about 3rd level lecturers holidays on the radio or online fora, answer is not really, and do you know why? Because it isn;t as popular...more people have gone to primary and second level than third level so therefore it gives them that sense of 'knowing' about the system. Does anyone ever give out about bad lecturers? Whats the qualification needed to become a lecturer anyway? What's the lecturing contact time these days. How long are lecturers holidays..but no, it doesn;t really rile up the rabble as much as primary and secondary.. shur the whole country is an expert in that.

If you're too afraid to put your own profession under scrutiny then either p1ss or get off the pot. And if it's such a cushy number then by all means put your degree to good use and sign up for the PGDE (its now been extended to 2 years (unpaid) with further probation when you start teaching (part time of course). Looks like a handy number alright.

Some of the naysayers on here are going around like they are fools holding a hammer...everything looks like a nail to them.

Have you heard about them litter wardens though, goddam handy number.

evolving_doors

andyman wrote: »

LizT summed it up earlier, the petty jibes makes it so much harder to take posts seriously.

Well in fairness he is a moderator who was posting off topic banter with yourself which had nothing to do with this thread. Like those other numpties talking about 1916. So petty begats petty.
Generally because it's after hours and all that I enjoy the blastings of ... and occasional kicks in the head, but if it's a dug up thread that trots out the same old same old then I'll have a go at putting my side of the story.

andyman wrote: »

The consistent nature from both sides (myself included) prove that this thread has run it's course and that it's just turning into a slagging match at this stage.

The Teachers (or at least some) are taking things too seriously while the bashers are just throwing **** against the wall and hoping some of it sticks. It's constant going around in circles is draining.

There's debates then there's this, which is a debate that's clearly run its course.

Agreed.. this thread has run its course....until teachers reject the new Haddington Road/CP2 agreement in a few weeks.. then it's all back again, the usual sh1te thrown around..

Then there's the easter holidays when the Unions have their annual meet up with the usual stories 'dominating' the media and spin by politicians and experts such as the 'man on the street' who went to school.

I do take it a bit seriously when its my own job being talked about, and what person wouldn;t...especially on AH.. hence the reluctance of anyone other than teachers here to admit what they do for a living.

I was told once never to crticise another mans 'bread and butter'. Looks like I can't even get the opportunity when people are too ashamed to say what they do for a living.

danniemcq

Round and round we go, where does it stop?

Here