Teachers and their summer holidays

Foxtrol

Peter Flynt wrote: »

They don't get better results. I've worked in a very prominent grinds school. What they do is they get students out who do very well with a picture to appear in the media to fool the likes of you. All schools produce students who get exceptional grades.

You've no evidence to back up your claims other than what's going on inside your own head.

At this stage I don't debate with posters who just make stuff up and expect to be taken seriously . . . So G'luck.

Here you go:

http://www.ioe.ie/why-the-institute-/excellent-results

Now show me evidence of a non-fee state paying school which rivals this list of entrants numbers for third level from one year group?

Actually on second thought don't, you clearly have a gripe against grind schools which is more than likely linked to the fact you used to work for one. I hope you don't teach any debating as all you've contributed to this discussion is claiming the other party has no evidence while providing none of your own, bringing in statistics that have nothing to do with the point at hand, claiming the other party's argument had so many holes you could 'run a triton power shower out of it' while failing to make one coherent point countering it and best of all pointing out a correction in a post that actually makes your own argument look worse. Yeah mate, 'G'Luck'... :rolleyes:

Peter Flynt

Foxtrol wrote: »

Here you go:

http://www.ioe.ie/why-the-institute-/excellent-results

Now show me evidence of a non-fee state paying school which rivals this list of entrants numbers for third level from one year group?

So your "evidence" is from an entity that describes itself as a "business" first and a "school" second?

Are you really so naive that you cannot see that they're advertising on their OWN WEBSITE and hence they are not painting a full true story of the results of ALL of their students?

Look - See Ya.

Foxtrol

Foxtrol wrote: »

Here you go:

http://www.ioe.ie/why-the-institute-/excellent-results

Now show me evidence of a non-fee state paying school which rivals this list of entrants numbers for third level from one year group?

Actually on second thought don't, you clearly have a gripe against grind schools which is more than likely linked to the fact you used to work for one. I hope you don't teach any debating as all you've contributed to this discussion is claiming the other party has no evidence while providing none of your own, bringing in statistics that have nothing to do with the point at hand, claiming the other party's argument had so many holes you could 'run a triton power shower out of it' while failing to make one coherent point countering it and best of all pointing out a correction in a post that actually makes your own argument look worse. Yeah mate, 'G'Luck'... :rolleyes:

You aren't great at the debating yourself with your refusal to acknowledge the fact students attending grind schools will be pushing themselves much harder and be pushed much harder by their parents due to the fees being paid than a lot of students in public sector schools.

The fact that grind schools consist almost totally of the type of student trying their hardest cannot be ignored as disinterested and less capable students will always end up in public sector schools thus skewing the results.

You also have a high number of repeat leaving cert students in grind schools, again the type of student that will bust themselves to improve on their previous results as they don't want to be back again.

Foxtrol

Maren Ashy Sarsaparilla wrote: »

You aren't great at the debating yourself with your refusal to acknowledge the fact students attending grind schools will be pushing themselves much harder and be pushed much harder by their parents due to the fees being paid than a lot of students in public sector schools.

The fact that grind schools consist almost totally of the type of student trying their hardest cannot be ignored as disinterested and less capable students will always end up in public sector schools thus skewing the results.

You also have a high number of repeat leaving cert students in grind schools, again the type of student that will bust themselves to improve on their previous results as they don't want to be back again.

I have accepted all of those things, you are the ones who just won't accept the fact that the level of teaching in grind schools on overall is better than state schools which plays a part (along with your points above) in the students results and is the reason why they're paid more than state teachers and one of the main reasons why parents pay money for their kids to go there.

Look if you think the schools are paying more and parents are paying fees for teachers how were equal or worse than those in their old state schools then grand, keep telling yourself that as you're clearly not going listen to logic.

This is the last off-topic rant I'm going to entertain. Feel free to give me a legitimate reason or two for the length of the summer holidays if you want but how many pages in and I've yet to see one.

To be honest at this stage I have a lot more respect for the teachers who came on here and didn't try to defend the indefensible rather than those who've tried to bull**** explanations, hurl abuse, blame others and generally muddy the debate.

evolving_doors

Foxtrol wrote: »

To be honest at this stage I have a lot more respect for the teachers who came on here and didn't try to defend the indefensible rather than those who've tried to bull**** explanations, hurl abuse, blame others and generally muddy the debate.

So thats your trump card then, grind schools have better teachers! You equate student results with being a great teacher.....?

So by your logic the teacher who busts their ass day in day out in a socially deprived area to motivate students to even go in and sit the junior cert never mind the LC...this teacher should get paid less!?

This debate isnt muddy at all, it's as clear as day that you havn't a bloody clue about education.

Ruairi Quinn would love ya..

evolving_doors

Foxtrol wrote: »

This is the last off-topic rant I'm going to entertain. Feel free to give me a legitimate reason or two for the length of the summer holidays if you want but how many pages in and I've yet to see one.

Ok we all know that the reason for the long holidays is a legacy issue, saving the hay and all that. If you want to make the holidays shorter then you will have to pay teachers on a pro rata basis..

You might have missed this point...currently its 9/12....so moving on from this (please!)....would you be happy to move it to 10/12 or 11/12 if teachers worked an extra month or two.??(I'm all for it BTW).

I guess your answer is no as you are taking the point of view of the dog in this manger.

andyman

Wow. These last couple of pages have been hilarious reading from the teacher-bashers.

Foxtrol

Foxtrol wrote: »

This is the last off-topic rant I'm going to entertain. Feel free to give me a legitimate reason or two for the length of the summer holidays if you want but how many pages in and I've yet to see one.

To be honest at this stage I have a lot more respect for the teachers who came on here and didn't try to defend the indefensible rather than those who've tried to bull**** explanations, hurl abuse, blame others and generally muddy the debate.

Why is it indefensible?

We have a long break in the summer, as do most western nations, it's a cultural thing. Our summer holiday is probably above average but I don't think it's outrageously long. And our contact hours - which is what counts, surely - are well above OECD average.

So what are you actually complaining about? I don't get it. You think we need more contact hours? Even though we have significantly more than 'best education system in the world' Finland. You think that the school day should be shorter and the holidays shorter as well? More holidays at other times of the year?

I can understand a genuine desire to improve educational outcomes but there's absolutely no evidence that the length of holidays is the problem. Do you have any?

evolving_doors

Such a pity this thread has dropped to page 3, it was great at keeping the rabble out of the Teaching and Lecturing forum.

So anyhow is everything clear..

Just to recap for those not listening at the back...

1. Teachers get paid 9/12 spread out over 12 months. If you want them to work more they should get paid more.
2. Just because you've attended school does nout make you an expert in the education system.
3. Bad teachers do exist, but so do bad doctors, bad traffic wardens ...hell even the private sector has inept people who stay in their jobs.
4. You can't measure teacher performance based on student results. They are trying this in England to appease the rabble, it just creates tonnes of paper work and inevitably becomes a box ticking exercise.
5. You wont realise how bad things have gotten untill your child complains that they have had umpteen part time teachers coming and going for one subject.
6.A Comparing difficulties in different jobs is spurious as there are too many variables.

Rightwing

Armelodie wrote: »

Such a pity this thread has dropped to page 3, it was great at keeping the rabble out of the Teaching and Lecturing forum.

So anyhow is everything clear..

Just to recap for those not listening at the back...

1. Teachers get paid 9/12 spread out over 12 months. If you want them to work more they should get paid more.
2. Just because you've attended school does nout make you an expert in the education system.
3. Bad teachers do exist, but so do bad doctors, bad traffic wardens ...hell even the private sector has inept people who stay in their jobs.
4. You can't measure teacher performance based on student results. They are trying this in England to appease the rabble, it just creates tonnes of paper work and inevitably becomes a box ticking exercise.
5. You wont realise how bad things have gotten untill your child complains that they have had umpteen part time teachers coming and going for one subject.
6.A Comparing difficulties in different jobs is spurious as there are too many variables.

Teaching isn't a complex job, it should be a €25-50K position. No teacher should earn over €50K....that includes perks. I can't see why principals should be on more.

vamos!

Just an update for today. Have been out and about for a nice walk. Just relaxing now before going out for the evening. I have decided that the thread is about teachers and their summer holidays. This is what I do during my holidays. Perhaps more teachers want to post? If they are back from the sun obvs. Once again, I hope all of the worker bees are having a happy and productive day. Only 2 days to the weekend now!

Boombastic

vamos! wrote: »

Just an update for today. Have been out and about for a nice walk. Just relaxing now before going out for the evening. I have decided that the thread is about teachers and their summer holidays. This is what I do during my holidays. Perhaps more teachers want to post? If they are back from the sun obvs. Once again, I hope all of the worker bees are having a happy and productive day. Only 2 days to the weekend now!

Can't wait until the next teacher posts trying to convince us their workload is so heavy they're in the school for most of August.

Bananatop

vamos! wrote: »

Just an update for today. Have been out and about for a nice walk. Just relaxing now before going out for the evening. I have decided that the thread is about teachers and their summer holidays. This is what I do during my holidays. Perhaps more teachers want to post? If they are back from the sun obvs. Once again, I hope all of the worker bees are having a happy and productive day. Only 2 days to the weekend now!

Great idea vamos! My update.....spent the morning going through last year's notes, see what I can salvage. I will spend the afternoon organising some resources. Might head out for a walk then if it's not raining!

Boombastic

Bananatop wrote: »

Great idea vamos! My update.....spent the morning going through last year's notes, see what I can salvage. I will spend the afternoon organising some resources. Might head out for a walk then if it's not raining!

Thar didn't take long

Vamos! You'll be kicked out of the union with that kind of talk

Bananatop

vamos! wrote: »

Only 2 days to the weekend now!

Kilkenny here I come!

Rightwing

Rightwing wrote: »

Teaching isn't a complex job, it should be a €25-50K position. No teacher should earn over €50K....that includes perks. I can't see why principals should be on more.

Of course they should be on more. In reality they are quite poorly paid compared to someone in a similar level of responsibility. A principal could easily be in change and responsible for 1000+ people between teachers, students and other staff in a school. The salary of someone in a similar position in business would be multiples of the highest paid principal in the country.

Personally I think 30k should be the minimum starting salary for a teacher. It's an extremely important and responsible position and the salary should reflect that.

Rightwing

Maren Ashy Sarsaparilla wrote: »

Of course they should be on more. In reality they are quite poorly paid compared to someone in a similar level of responsibility. A principal could easily be in change and responsible for 1000+ people between teachers, students and other staff in a school. The salary of someone in a similar position in business would be multiples of the highest paid principal in the country.

Personally I think 30k should be the minimum starting salary for a teacher. It's an extremely important and responsible position and the salary should reflect that.

Country can't afford these salaries.

A princial can't be responsible for these 1,000, no more than a priest is responsible for the people in the church. If a teacher punches a pupil in the face,,,,,is the principal responsible? Ermm....NO.

Peter Flynt

Rightwing wrote: »

Country can't afford these salaries.

Close down the schools then.

Rightwing

Rightwing wrote: »

Country can't afford these salaries.

A princial can't be responsible for these 1,000, no more than a priest is responsible for the people in the church. If a teacher punches a pupil in the face,,,,,is the principal responsible? Ermm....NO.

They will just have to find a way to afford them.

And yes a principal is responsible for students and teachers in a school the same as a person in business is responsible for people under there remit.

They are responible for things that happen under there watch. If a teacher punches a pupil the principal will have the parents asking what such a teacher was in the school and blaming the principal and will also have to deal with all the fall out from the department, media etc.

The principal of even a fairly small school is a very tough job, the fact you don't understand that shows how little you know about it. I know of people who just had to say yes and they had the job of principal in a school but despite the increased salary they turned it down as they know the massive hassle of a job that it is.

Rightwing

Maren Ashy Sarsaparilla wrote: »

They will just have to find a way to afford them.

And yes a principal is responsible for students and teachers in a school the same as a person in business is responsible for people under there remit.

They are responible for things that happen under there watch. If a teacher punches a pupil the principal will have the parents asking what such a teacher was in the school and blaming the principal and will also have to deal with all the fall out from the department, media etc.

The principal of even a fairly small school is a very tough job, the fact you don't understand that shows how little you know about it. I know of people who just had to say yes and they had the job of principal in a school but despite the increased salary they turned it down as they know the massive hassle of a job that it is.

This is all make-believe. It's a reflection of the culture we live in.

I still have to find someone who can tell me what a primary principal does all day every day, one that doesn't teach. Anyone turning down such a job,,,,I truly give up. In secondary yes, I could see it be a tough job.

Rightwing

Rightwing wrote: »

This is all make-believe. It's a reflection of the culture we live in.

I still have to find someone who can tell me what a primary principal does all day every day, one that doesn't teach. Anyone turning down such a job,,,,I truly give up. In secondary yes, I could see it be a tough job.

I was referring to a secondary principals role with the people I was talking about.

Boombastic

According to liveline many schools are cutting back to a 4 and a half day week, due to being overworked.

2sweetpeas

In the UK, school holidays are only 6 weeks in the summer. That's more than enough in my opinion. Children are bored and the longer they are off the harder they fid it to settle back after the summer. I can't understand why school holidays are so long here. There's no good reason for it. Can someone explain why?

Rightwing

Maren Ashy Sarsaparilla wrote: »

I was referring to a secondary principals role with the people I was talking about.

Okay, there's no question about. The role of the secondary teacher is more difficult. I don't begrudge them their wages, and also I have to add in, for the salaries I'm talking about, costs have to come down. Items like car insurance, health insurance etc. I don't expect people to be working and have little at the end of it. This applies to public & private sectors. Costs are the problem in this country.

I don't expect a principal in a secondary to teach,,,but for the life of I can't see why a principal in a primary school can't teach? This is an example of why the country is bust.

Rightwing

Rightwing wrote: »

Okay, there's no question about. The role of the secondary teacher is more difficult. I don't begrudge them their wages, and also I have to add in, for the salaries I'm talking about, costs have to come down. Items like car insurance, health insurance etc. I don't expect people to be working and have little at the end of it. This applies to public & private sectors. Costs are the problem in this country.

I don't expect a principal in a secondary to teach,,,but for the life of I can't see why a principal in a primary school can't teach? This is an example of why the country is bust.

It depends on the size of the school. Small primary schools the principal does teach but bigger one its just not possible to juggle teaching with the running of the school. Also remember a primary school teacher doesn't get free classes etc during the day they are in charge of the class all the time.

My primary school was quite small and my principal thought. However he spent half the time having to be going in and out of the office dealing with things and this is far from ideal, he would also be in the school late into the evening often catching up on the things he couldn't do during the day. The school got a bit bigger after I left and the position of principal was no longer a teaching position. The change was badly needed imo.

evolving_doors

Boombastic wrote: »

According to liveline many schools are cutting back to a 4 and a half day week, due to being overworked.

No you sheep, the cutbacks are due to a cut in PTR. The school can't afford to put on all those classes for that period. Have you heard there is a moritorium on recruitment also? Probably not..

If it makes you feel any better the teachers will be staying on doing rediculous Croke Park hours having buzzword bingo meetings.... Wouldn't you prefer these teachers to be teaching at this time?

You can't be overworked if you dont have a job!

evolving_doors

Rightwing wrote: »

Okay, there's no question about. The role of the secondary teacher is more difficult.

I don't expect a principal in a secondary to teach,,,but for the life of I can't see why a principal in a primary school can't teach? This is an example of why the country is bust.

Go home Rightwing you're drunk and spouting SH1Te. What is your occupation BTW ?

I know there is free speech in this country and all that, but you've well gone over your quota of nonsense.

You havn't a clue what a secondary teacher job entails,
You havn't a clue what a primary teacher job entails.
You havn't a clue what a principals job entails.
Yet you come on here and proclaim which job is most difficult and how fair this mythical private sector job is.

Let me guess, your experience of irish education is going to school and listening to Joe Duffy.

Rightwing

Armelodie wrote: »

Go home Rightwing you're drunk and spouting SH1Te. What is your occupation BTW ?

I know there is free speech in this country and all that, but you've well gone over your quota of nonsense.

You havn't a clue what a secondary teacher job entails,
You havn't a clue what a primary teacher job entails.
You havn't a clue what a principals job entails.
Yet you come on here and proclaim which job is most difficult and how fair this mythical private sector job is.

Let me guess, your experience of irish education is going to school and listening to Joe Duffy.

That always wins discussions. Well done. :rolleyes:

tayto lover

Teachers are partly responsible for the way the country is at the moment buy not any of them that are actually teaching now.

evolving_doors

Rightwing wrote: »

That always wins discussions. Well done. :rolleyes:

Is your position so week that you resort to .. :rolleyes: as a response?

So anyway what is your occupation?