Teachers and their summer holidays

oldyouth

oldyouth wrote: »

Arts teacher, eh?????

I work in the private sector and always have. I also happen to have a functioning brain and take an interest in education.

For the record, I get **** all holidays and work long hours, but on the plus side I earn more than any teacher ever will. Swings and roundabouts. I know I certainly couldn't be a teacher and from what I have seen through my own children, they do an amazing job.

But seeing as we are taking educated guesses about what other people do for a living, I would say in your case... unemployed?

Rightwing

Mardy Bum wrote: »

NQTs have already had this.

So if the nqts can take the hit, it proves everyone else can. This would reduce the deficit significantly.

Boombastic

Peter Flynt wrote: »

I didn't realise it was the responsibility of teachers to pay for school buildings. Only 47% of the education budget is spent on teachers wages.

Regarding your second claim - From the 2011 OECD Publication - Education at a glance it quite clearly proves that teachers in Ireland spend more time classroom teaching than teachers in most other OECD countries (including Finland) at both primary and secondary levels

http://www.oecd.org/edu/skills-beyond-school/48631582.pdf

[Page 429]

It's the job of the education minister, the priorities are arseways from the top down.



2011 77% on salaries and pension
confidential - estimates department of education and skills
https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CDIQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fper.gov.ie%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2FDepartment-of-Education-Skills.pdf&ei=724BUs7NKsWa0AXRuICYBQ&usg=AFQjCNHwE8AXQ5A7ZKZsm-Xe9naIBw-9Yw&sig2=5UI2RcKeA-fXXvzNiik93A

Any source for the 47%?

Here's an article about Finland any why it takes more than changing the number of class hours to improve outcome.


Quality aswell as quantity of class hours should also be considered.

http://www.fordyslexia.com/2013/05/3-fallacies-of-teacher-effectiveness-in-under-performing-nations/


Was browsing on the department website there reading rurais fascinating speech. I think he needs to address that issue quicker than 20 years



If continuously improving the quality of our educators is our aim, then we must also explore how to make the profession increasingly attractive.
In the past, a conservative system of promotions developed, where teachers were appointed to posts of responsibility.
Some contained no additional responsibility, most were simply filled by the longest serving teachers in the schools.
In 20 years’ time, we need to have developed a system where teachers are promoted to management positions that involve genuine responsibilities.
Their promotion should be based on the quality of their work, and their capacity and ambition to become leaders.
The
- See more at: http://www.education.ie/en/Press-Events/Speeches/2013-Speeches/SP13-08-01.html#sthash.y0uQZOe2.dpuf




That was hell to type on my phone and there's no web link button

gaeilgebeo

ZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz ; is this thread still going?:rolleyes:
Banging the same old drum.:rolleyes:

Hope all my fellow teachers are enjoying the summer break.
I'm really enjoying the good weather and being able to go on a night out mid-week. :cool:
Relax and enjoy the next 3 weeks!

Peter Flynt

Boombastic wrote: »

Any source for the 47%?

http://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/rel...6education.pdf

The link refers to Chapter 6 (Education) of the Statistical Yearbook of Ireland, 2011 [the most recent edition]

Table 6.4 on page 98 refers to gross expenditure within each sector of education for the year ending 31 December 2009 which, in total, came to €9335.6 million.

These figures are not entirely detailed but the breakdown is as follows:
Administration and other services €533.2 million
First level education grants and services €3,133.3 million
Second level and further education grants and services €3,101.7 million
Third level and further education grants and services €1,820.9 million
Capital services €766.5 million

Gross expenditure €9,355.6 million

Now first and second level (where teachers are employed) expenditure accounts for €6235 million or approximately 66.6 % of total education expenditure.

Now teachers wages would not account for the entirety of this money as other costs (as listed above) would have to be considered.

Even if the wages of teachers were to account for 75 % of the €6235 million spent in 2009 then teachers wages would account for just under half of the entire education budget for 2009.

Quality aswell as quantity of class hours should also be considered.

Of course . . this doesn't negate what you were implying earlier.

If continuously improving the quality of our educators is our aim, then we must also explore how to make the profession increasingly attractive.

The starting pay for new teachers is appalling. No one in their right mind would consider entering it. Add in the fact that there's no chance of promotion. .

In the past, a conservative system of promotions developed, where teachers were appointed to posts of responsibility.
Some contained no additional responsibility, most were simply filled by the longest serving teachers in the schools.
In 20 years’ time, we need to have developed a system where teachers are promoted to management positions that involve genuine responsibilities.
Their promotion should be based on the quality of their work, and their capacity and ambition to become leaders.
The
- See more at: http://www.education.ie/en/Press-Events/Speeches/2013-Speeches/SP13-08-01.html#sthash.y0uQZOe2.dpuf

The promotional system is to be changed to one based entirely on merit I believe from 2015.

To be honest it's sort of irrelevant - due to the recruitment embargo.

Promotional posts will pay F all - At present it's something like 7.5 grand gross for an A post (the highest responsibility of middle management).

Boombastic

Peter Flynt wrote: »

http://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/rel...6education.pdf

The link refers to Chapter 6 (Education) of the Statistical Yearbook of Ireland, 2011 [the most recent edition]

Table 6.4 on page 98 refers to gross expenditure within each sector of education for the year ending 31 December 2009 which, in total, came to €9335.6 million.

These figures are not entirely detailed but the breakdown is as follows:
Administration and other services €533.2 million
First level education grants and services €3,133.3 million
Second level and further education grants and services €3,101.7 million
Third level and further education grants and services €1,820.9 million
Capital services €766.5 million

Gross expenditure €9,355.6 million

Now first and second level (where teachers are employed) expenditure accounts for €6235 million or approximately 66.6 % of total education expenditure.

Now teachers wages would not account for the entirety of this money as other costs (as listed above) would have to be considered.

Even if the wages of teachers were to account for 75 % of the €6235 million spent in 2009 then teachers wages would account for just under half of the entire education budget for 2009.



Of course . . this doesn't negate what you were implying earlier.



The starting pay for new teachers is appalling. No one in their right mind would consider entering it. Add in the fact that there's no chance of promotion. .



The promotional system is to be changed to one based entirely on merit I believe from 2015.

To be honest it's sort of irrelevant - due to the recruitment embargo.

Promotional posts will pay F all - At present it's something like 7.5 grand gross for an A post (the highest responsibility of middle management).

You should really link exact quotes you took from another discussion website, but plagiarism aside what was implying earlier?

Peter Flynt

Boombastic wrote: »

You should really link exact quotes you took from another discussion website, but plagiarism aside what was implying earlier?

I wrote the original.

Boombastic

Peter Flynt wrote: »

I wrote the original.

Fair enough, I withdraw my allegations

Boombastic

Peter Flynt wrote: »

http://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/rel...6education.pdf

The link refers to Chapter 6 (Education) of the Statistical Yearbook of Ireland, 2011 [the most recent edition]

Table 6.4 on page 98 refers to gross expenditure within each sector of education for the year ending 31 December 2009 which, in total, came to €9335.6 million.

These figures are not entirely detailed but the breakdown is as follows:
Administration and other services €533.2 million
First level education grants and services €3,133.3 million
Second level and further education grants and services €3,101.7 million
Third level and further education grants and services €1,820.9 million
Capital services €766.5 million

Gross expenditure €9,355.6 million

Now first and second level (where teachers are employed) expenditure accounts for €6235 million or approximately 66.6 % of total education expenditure.

Now teachers wages would not account for the entirety of this money as other costs (as listed above) would have to be considered.

Even if the wages of teachers were to account for 75 % of the €6235 million spent in 2009 then teachers wages would account for just under half of the entire education budget for 2009.
...

I applied your formula to the 2012 figures. Total first and second level grants and services expenditure €5967.9, or 69.73% of total budget €8559.1
http://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/statisticalyearbookofireland/statisticalyearbookofireland2012edition/

Spending is an increasing on a resource which is only utilised for part of the year

Peter Flynt

Boombastic wrote: »

I applied your formula to the 2012 figures. Total first and second level grants and services expenditure €5967.9, or 69.73% of total budget €8559.1
http://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/statisticalyearbookofireland/statisticalyearbookofireland2012edition/

Spending is an increasing on a resource which is only utilised for part of the year

Adding the €3005.9m [First Level Education Grants & Services] to the €2962m [Second Level Education Grants & Services] provides a GROSS figure of 63.8% of the total gross budget (€9345.7m) for the Department of Education & Skills for 2010

If you're implying that the entirety of that 63.8% is spent on teachers wages then you're entirely mistaken.

Each school is given a grant per student for the running operations of the school - heat, light, etc. . In addition caretakers, secretaries and ancilliary staff must be paid also.

If, say 70-80% of this 63.8% were spent on teachers wages, then the expenditure on the wage of teachers would be in the range of 44.6-51% of the entire Departments budget.

Dostoevsky

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I work in the private sector and always have. I also happen to have a functioning brain and take an interest in education.

For the record, I get **** all holidays and work long hours, but on the plus side I earn more than any teacher ever will.Swings and roundabouts.

At least somebody is being honest about the exchange. Very, very few people who finished with very good degrees (as all 2nd level teachers have given the points needed to get accepted on to the PDE) and usually postgrads are earning as low a salary as teachers are. Additonally, many if not most teachers need additional jobs to keep their homes going. Anybody who has the academic aptitude to get on the PDE is capable of doing any of the professional exams for careers which earn substantially more money over the 7.5/8.5 months of the secondary/primary school year.They choose not to. That's their choice and they accept the financial consequences of that choice, just as people who choose a higher-earning career accept the work-life balance consequences of that choice.

Only the most bitter and unreasonable of minds could begrudge this exchange and exercise in freedom of choice.

Feathers

Dostoevsky wrote: »

Anybody who has the academic aptitude to get on the PDE is capable of doing any of the professional exams for careers which earn substantially more money over the 7.5/8.5 months of the secondary/primary school year.They choose not to. That's their choice and they accept the financial consequences of that choice, just as people who choose a higher-earning career accept the work-life balance consequences of that choice.

Well, again according to the OECD, Irish teachers earn 82% of the average salary for a full-time, full-year worker with a tertiary level education. So if you do that 9/12 calculation everyone seems fond of, that would be 109% of the average salary pro rata.

Or are you saying every teacher could have gone on to be a barrister & earn a few 100k per year?

Personally I'm in favour of paying teachers more regardless, just with higher standards in place.

oldyouth

Dostoevsky wrote: »

Fewer. If you listened more in class...

Maybe I would have used 'fewer' if there had been more classes during the year to provide a better education

Christy42

Louthdrog wrote: »

I offered an opinion based on some noticeable differences in my two months in their education system to date. I by no means claimed to be an expert. Hence my little get out of jail "in my experience" I threw in.

The summer jobs argument is a good one, and one I availed of myself. Is there going to be many students able to find summer employment these days though?
Students in my school anyway all go on a large block of work experience about the age of 16 so they do have that experience, but good point, one I didnt think of.

Not overly aware of the retention of teachers issue, although it is clear that there is a higher turnover of teachers. Thinking back on some of the teachers I was educated by and worked alongside here though, there really needs to be more of a buck up or lose your job approach here.

I found some summer work during the early days of the recession. I haven't looked in a few years but there are at least a few summer jobs going every year. Not certain what an individual student's odds are though. How long is the work experience for over there? Here in 4th year (which is optional in a lot of schools) some schools have work experience but it was only for two weeks.

mickstupp

Dostoevsky wrote: »

... Very, very few people who finished with very good degrees (as all 2nd level teachers have given the points needed to get accepted on to the PDE) ...

Just wondering what's considered a 'very good degree' that 'all 2nd level teachers have'? I'm sure we've all known teachers without a clue. My sister, admittedly unreliable, claims two friends of hers teach honours LC Maths with only a 2.2 in that subject. A 2.2 is not a very good degree. When it comes to my future (hopefully) kids potentially being taught at honours LC level, a 2.2 is not even a 'good' degree in my opinion. A 'very good degree' should be a 1st in that subject, but I doubt that's what you mean since certainly very few people have that. Good might be a 2.1? Anything less and I don't think a person should be allowed to teach the subject at all, not even at pass level. Just my opinion though. The quality of education needs to rise, not just the quantity of days spent in school.

Rightwing

mickstupp wrote: »

Just wondering what's considered a 'very good degree' that 'all 2nd level teachers have'? I'm sure we've all known teachers without a clue. My sister, admittedly unreliable, claims two friends of hers teach honours LC Maths with only a 2.2 in that subject. A 2.2 is not a very good degree. When it comes to my future (hopefully) kids potentially being taught at honours LC level, a 2.2 is not even a 'good' degree in my opinion. A 'very good degree' should be a 1st in that subject, but I doubt that's what you mean since certainly very few people have that. Good might be a 2.1? Anything less and I don't think a person should be allowed to teach the subject at all, not even at pass level. Just my opinion though. The quality of education needs to rise, not just the quantity of days spent in school.

Too much emphasis is placed on teaching, the parents and students have to take more responsibility.

hcass

Juniorhurler wrote: »

Given that the Irish Montessori Education Board state a max pupil teacher ratio of 1:15 , you are talking scutter.

No I'm not talking scutter. And the ratios for children in a Montessori setting are actually 10:1 - there was me in the classroom and an assistant. So 10+10=20 children.

Apology?

Peter Flynt

Feathers wrote: »

Personally I'm in favour of paying teachers more regardless, just with higher standards in place.

The policy now is - Pay teachers less and demand higher standards. Do not contribute in any way to a teacher furthering their own education (e.g. doing a Masters) and yet demand evidence of CPD.

Rightwing

Peter Flynt wrote: »

The policy now is - Pay teachers less and demand higher standards. Do not contribute in any way to a teacher furthering their own education (e.g. doing a Masters) and yet demand evidence of CPD.

But what would that contribute ? I don't see the need for teachers to be educated to a very high standard. I can't see what difference having a masters or a phd would do when teaching primary kids.

therunaround

amen wrote: »

It is possible to earn several thousand euro correcting exam papers.

Finished correcting last week.
Iv been done out of sixeral thousand euros by the looks of things.
Never again...:)

hcass

Rightwing wrote: »

But what would that contribute ? I don't see the need for teachers to be educated to a very high standard. I can't see what difference having a masters or a phd would do when teaching primary kids.

They get paid more if they have a masters which is why they do it. I don't see how it betters them as teachers either.

Rightwing

hcass wrote: »

They get paid more if they have a masters which is why they do it. I don't see how it betters them as teachers either.

Exactly, so why wouldn't they do them.

People in the public sector should always be paid less than the private.

Peter Flynt

hcass wrote: »

They get paid more if they have a masters which is why they do it. I don't see how it betters them as teachers either.

Not any more they don't.

TheBody

therunaround wrote: »

Finished correcting last week.
Iv been done out of sixeral thousand euros by the looks of things.
Never again...:)

Wha?

Boombastic

Peter Flynt wrote: »

The policy now is - Pay teachers less and demand higher standards. Do not contribute in any way to a teacher furthering their own education (e.g. doing a Masters) and yet demand evidence of CPD.

That's because the policy up to this was 'throw money at them to shut them up, never mind about performance, we can't be listening to those unions, sure aren't we all millionaires*'. That was in the heady days of the celtic tiger.




*Not the exact name of ff's policy.

Peter Flynt

Boombastic wrote: »

That's because the policy up to this was 'throw money at them to shut them up, never mind about performance, we can't be listening to those unions, sure aren't we all millionaires*'. That was in the heady days of the celtic tiger.




*Not the exact name of ff's policy.

For how long did they throw money (in your view)? . . 5 years or so?

Any benefits gained have long since been paid back with more. . . Financially & Time Wise.

runawaybishop

TheBody wrote: »

Wha?

Several - sixeral = one thouseral.

They were paid 1k for exam correcting. Did you not cover this in school?

TheBody

runawaybishop wrote: »

Several - sixeral = one thouseral.

They were paid 1k for exam correcting. Did you not cover this in school?

I must have been sick/mitching that day!!

Boombastic

Peter Flynt wrote: »

For how long did they throw money (in your view)? . . 5 years or so?

Any benefits gained have long since been paid back with more. . . Financially & Time Wise.

Up until 2008 I would guess. Newer recruits have been hit hardest (often the ones working the hardest to try and impress). The more established permanent teachers are on the gravy train and they know it, they sell out their granny (nqts) to keep it.

Time wise -exactly how many hours have been introduced?


I often wonder if teachers workload is so heavy during term time, why don't the unions push for less contact time/ week with formalised pep hours in exchange for a couple of weeks short summer holidays? This would benefit students and teachers equally, reduce day to day workload for teachers.

Rightwing

Boombastic wrote: »

Up until 2008 I would guess. Newer recruits have been hit hardest (often the ones working the hardest to try and impress). The more established permanent teachers are on the gravy train and they know it, they sell out their granny (nqts) to keep it.

Time wise -exactly how many hours have been introduced?


I often wonder if teachers workload is so heavy during term time, why don't the unions push for less contact time/ week with formalised pep hours in exchange for a couple of weeks short summer holidays? This would benefit students and teachers equally, reduce day to day workload for teachers.

Parents want the childen in school as long as possible. Some don't care if they are playing tiddlywinks,,,just so long as they are in school.