Church interfering with Scouts

swampgas

@Scouter123, was in the scouts myself many years ago (the CBSI as it was then), and loved it for the most part. However I remember the Scouting handbook. There was all the usual stuff about knots and campcraft, and then in the middle this incredible chapter on a Scout's devotion to Mary Mother of God. It really jarred, even to a kiddie like myself back then. It was religious propaganda embedded in a Scout Manual. I really found that chapter weird, and I didn't know why until many years later.

The thing is, many people don't realise just how religion (and Catholicism in particular) is interwoven into the fabric of society, they just don't notice it because it's always been there. It really smacks you in the face though once you stop being religious.

Scouting doesn't need any religion or spirituality shoehorned into it to be a great activity.

Scouter123

swampgas wrote: »

@Scouter123, was in the scouts myself many years ago (the CBSI as it was then), and loved it for the most part. However I remember the Scouting handbook. There was all the usual stuff about knots and campcraft, and then in the middle this incredible chapter on a Scout's devotion to Mary Mother of God. It really jarred, even to a kiddie like myself back then. It was religious propaganda embedded in a Scout Manual. I really found that chapter weird, and I didn't know why until many years later.

The thing is, many people don't realise just how religion (and Catholicism in particular) is interwoven into the fabric of society, they just don't notice it because it's always been there. It really smacks you in the face though once you stop being religious.

Scouting doesn't need any religion or spirituality shoehorned into it to be a great activity.

scouting isn't exactly like what it used to be. i know wat cbsi was like my grandad was a commissioner and catholicism was interwoven into it, but one knew one was in a catholic organistion as supposed to sai. society, everywhere has a few things in common: fun, protection and family. religion fitted into it. it isnt shoehorned into it, its a small part of it. i think in about 5 to 12 years scouting will change in general either two ways, prayers are gone and you can say them if you want to at a scouts own, but in an open discussion (not indoctrination as lazygal points out) and are not central to that discussion. the other way, and this would be a directive from abroad, would be one in which the current form keeps going but slowly transitions to the above idea.
currently the uk scout association is deciding to admit atheists as full members with a new promise (asfar as im aware). this will be great if they do as then wosm will have to make a statement on the issue and the procedure should follow. in ireland people of all creeds (including atheists buddhists and mormons) are accepted into scouts. the thing is they make the promise as above but if an atheist look at it as a way to get into a great chance at adventure, as eamon de valera said of the oath to the king as an empty oath. only inside an organisation can change come.

swampgas

Scouter123 wrote: »

scouting isn't exactly like what it used to be.

I can believe that - it's been 30 years since I was involved!

In ireland people of all creeds (including atheists buddhists and mormons) are accepted into scouts. the thing is they make the promise as above but if an atheist look at it as a way to get into a great chance at adventure, as eamon de valera said of the oath to the king as an empty oath. only inside an organisation can change come.

I happen to think if you are really being accepted by an organisation, that organisation shouldn't make you take an oath that makes you compromise your religious (or non-religious) principles. Nobody is stopping the Scouts from making their acceptance of members a bit more complete - all they need to do is be a bit more secular.

ShooterSF

Scouter123 wrote: »

in ireland people of all creeds (including atheists buddhists and mormons) are accepted into scouts. the thing is they make the promise as above but if an atheist look at it as a way to get into a great chance at adventure, as eamon de valera said of the oath to the king as an empty oath. only inside an organisation can change come.

But can you not see the problem people have on this forum with the scouts having such prayers in the same way as DeV had with the oath to the King? Both atheists and republicans were "accepted" into scouts/parliament but can only take part by lying. It's not just the scouts btw, we have the same problem with becoming president of our country so don't think the scouts are being picked out for special attention!

Mark Hamill

Scouter123 wrote: »

how can you be irish if you dont know how to speak the language, simple i have a passport.

Scouts are an organisation, not a nationality. They don't do passports.
What about the other point I made?

Banbh

I'm still involved as are my kids and I find the interference of the Catholic Church in intrusion into our scouting.

When the scouting bodies merged, the Catholic bishops opposed it as they saw their influence over children being threatened. Now they have out-manoeuvered the Protestants and others and have been able to get their men placed as 'chaplains' and can show up in 'their' halls and organise Masses and prayers at scouting gatherings.

If scouting is to continue into the 21st century, it needs to be open equally to all and if there are those in scouting that don't understand what equality means, then it is in big trouble.

Scouter123

swampgas wrote: »

I can believe that - it's been 30 years since I was involved!



I happen to think if you are really being accepted by an organisation, that organisation shouldn't make you take an oath that makes you compromise your religious (or non-religious) principles. Nobody is stopping the Scouts from making their acceptance of members a bit more complete - all they need to do is be a bit more secular.

hopefully things will change soon enough. as i said early itll be interesting to see how the british scouts will handle things and irish scouts can learn from it.

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Scouts are an organisation, not a nationality. They don't do passports.
What about the other point I made?

I was making an analogy/ comparison. also which point do you want me to comment on?

Banbh wrote: »

I'm still involved as are my kids and I find the interference of the Catholic Church in intrusion into our scouting.

When the scouting bodies merged, the Catholic bishops opposed it as they saw their influence over children being threatened. Now they have out-manoeuvered the Protestants and others and have been able to get their men placed as 'chaplains' and can show up in 'their' halls and organise Masses and prayers at scouting gatherings.

If scouting is to continue into the 21st century, it needs to be open equally to all and if there are those in scouting that don't understand what equality means, then it is in big trouble.

which bishops opposed it, who out-manoeuvered who, and did you bring up your concerns with the group council, have you considered running scouts' own instead of masses or indeed become a chaplain yourself?

Banbh

I am patient because I suspect that English is not your first language but you really must read a thread before you jump in with your opinions.

(i) The bishops who opposed the merger of the CBSI and the SAI were the Irish Catholic bishops also known as the Catholic hierarchy and the reasons they gave at the time were that the feared for the religious position of the Catholic children.

(ii) The out-manoeuvering was in the control that the Catholic Church now has over the entire organisation.

(iii) I wasn't involved at the time.

(iv) No I haven't. Nor have I considered saying Mass. I may however apply for the next advertised position of bishop as I have the jewellry and the purple frock in the wardrobe.

Patience has now expired.

Banbh

'Bishops to block scouting merger...'
Here you go:http://www.independent.ie/national-news/bishops-to-block-scouting-merger-over-ethos-worries-220259.html

Scouter123

Banbh wrote: »

I am patient because I suspect that English is not your first language but you really must read a thread before you jump in with your opinions.

(i) The bishops who opposed the merger of the CBSI and the SAI were the Irish Catholic bishops also known as the Catholic hierarchy and the reasons they gave at the time were that the feared for the religious position of the Catholic children.

(ii) The out-manoeuvering was in the control that the Catholic Church now has over the entire organisation.

(iii) I wasn't involved at the time.

(iv) No I haven't. Nor have I considered saying Mass. I may however apply for the next advertised position of bishop as I have the jewellry and the purple frock in the wardrobe.

Patience has now expired.

names of bishops, names of people who did the out-manoeuvering, raise your current concerns

Banbh wrote: »

I'm still involved as are my kids and I find the interference of the Catholic Church in intrusion into our scouting.

with the group, anybody can become a chaplain all you have to do is see how people are getting on and if there is anything on their mind.
please dont fall back on insulting me and i did read the thread in full before commenting

Scouter123

Banbh wrote: »

'Bishops to block scouting merger...'
Here you go:http://www.independent.ie/national-news/bishops-to-block-scouting-merger-over-ethos-worries-220259.html

thank you



was in 2003

ShooterSF

Scouter123 wrote: »

thank you



was in 2003

Yeah but when did you expect them to try and block the merger? Ten years after it?

Scouter123

ShooterSF wrote: »

Yeah but when did you expect them to try and block the merger? Ten years after it?

no its just people keep bringing this up when it was ten years ago

Scouter123

also many people would tell you that the old csi influence has been replaced with a growing sai influence

Mark Hamill

Scouter123 wrote: »

I was making an analogy/ comparison. also which point do you want me to comment on?

Your analogy doesn't add up.
I would like an answer to the other half of my post which you left out. I'll repost it here for you:
Why do scouts have a prayer at all if they are supposedly multi-denominational?
It would be like scouts saying they are multi-sport but expecting everyone to watch the premier league.

Scouter123

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Your analogy doesn't add up.
I would like an answer to the other half of my post which you left out. I'll repost it here for you:
Why do scouts have a prayer at all if they are supposedly multi-denominational?
It would be like scouts saying they are multi-sport but expecting everyone to watch the premier league.

all major religions use prayer as a means to have a spiritual connection. i feel like my analofy works in what way does it not?

Scouter123

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Your analogy doesn't add up.
I would like an answer to the other half of my post which you left out. I'll repost it here for you:
Why do scouts have a prayer at all if they are supposedly multi-denominational?
It would be like scouts saying they are multi-sport but expecting everyone to watch the premier league.

i actually did go to post#116 and its the first quote

ShooterSF

Scouter123 wrote: »

no its just people keep bringing this up when it was ten years ago

I don't think people have kept bringing it up. I've only seen it pointed out once and was from what I read, simply an example of the fact that the catholic church has a tradition of refusing to take their fingers out of anything they are stuck into without kicking up a big fuss.

Scouter123

ShooterSF wrote: »

I don't think people have kept bringing it up. I've only seen it pointed out once and was from what I read, simply an example of the fact that the catholic church has a tradition of refusing to take their fingers out of anything they are stuck into without kicking up a big fuss.

sorry just my brain is a bit fried from getting cao application sorted,
seen it brought up twice

lazygal

Scouter123 wrote: »

all major religions use prayer as a means to have a spiritual connection. i feel like my analofy works in what way does it not?

What about those of no religion who want to be scouts, or those of polytheist beliefs who don't swear to only one male god? What do they do?

Scouter123

lazygal wrote: »

What about those of no religion who want to be scouts, or those of polytheist beliefs who don't swear to only one male god? What do they do?

are you talking about the prayer or the promise, 2 different things

lazygal

Scouter123 wrote: »

are you talking about the prayer or the promise, 2 different things

I'm talking about anything that may be recited at a meeting that specifically refers to one male deity. What do those outside that belief system do?

Scouter123

lazygal what would you like to do? join scouts and an adventure? please state what would stop you? join up and help change the promise, the use of prayer.

ShooterSF

As someone who doesn't know the scouts myself,is the prayer said out loud during meetings and are atheists scouts provided for by being removed from such indoctrination?

lazygal

Scouter123 wrote: »

lazygal what would you like to do? join scouts and an adventure? please state what would stop you? join up and help change the promise, the use of prayer.

How can I join when I can't say the promise?

Scouter123

lazygal wrote: »

How can I join when I can't say the promise?

join a fellowship patrol

Scouter123

i can hopefully get you some details to help you if you want them:)

lazygal

Scouter123 wrote: »

join a fellowship patrol

And would praying take place during such activities? You do realise fellowship is a religious term, right?

Scouter123

lazygal wrote: »

And would praying take place during such activities? You do realise fellowship is a religious term, right?

not in the religious sense at all and it is up to the fellowship patrol itself to decide what to do. its there to help assist a scout groupand take part in scouting activities

Scouter123

"Members of the Fellowship Network are not required to affirm the Scout Promise" this is taken directly from the Fellowship Network factsheet.