Church interfering with Scouts

gizmo555

dulpit wrote: »

It would appear that a grand total of no current member of Scouting Ireland has posted here, so let me rectify that.

Ahem . . .

gizmo555 wrote: »

I have been a scout leader for several years in my local troop

(Although I freely concede, I'm not from Cork.)

Banbh

Ahem, ahem.
The fact that a troop hasn't been bothered by the chaplain or spiritual adviser doesn't take from the fact that they are there - and they shouldn't be.

ShooterSF

dulpit wrote: »

Technically speaking to be a member of Scouting Ireland you need to believe in something, that's a WOSM directive

Wow I've gave money to scouts fundraisers! That's the end of that chapter! I will not donate to an organisation which discriminates even if it's loosely worded and the command came from upstairs.

Banbh

You need to believe in something? Even if that were true would Santa Claus or the rights of man do? That's a big leap to Catholic chaplains and spiritual advisers.
Why not just believe in scouting?

robindch

dulpit wrote: »

Technically speaking to be a member of Scouting Ireland you need to believe in something, that's a WOSM directive

How exactly do the WOSM phrase it?

I believe "in" law, justice, money, the food supply, honesty, love and much else besides. Does that count? Or are they specifically looking for scouts to assert the existence of an invisible, parallel-universe, omnibenevolent cloud-god?

FergusODowd

Banbh wrote: »

You need to believe in something?

Is that not the freemasons ?

gizmo555

Banbh wrote: »

The fact that a troop hasn't been bothered by the chaplain or spiritual adviser doesn't take from the fact that they are there - and they shouldn't be.

Why not?

Banbh

Because it is a scouting organisation for young people.

Should all children's organisations - for example, swimming clubs, drama societies, music groups - have clerical advisers or spiritual chaplains? Of course not. This is a country of citizens who have different religions and none. They are entitled to equal treatment. For one organisation, the Catholic Church to infiltrate children's organisations which are open to all, is unjust.

Ironically, it is exactly this arrogant attitude, that they have a right to be wherever there are kids, that they have a right to have their views put above all others, that is tearing that organisation apart.

recedite

I propose this promise as an alternative.

On my honour I promise that I will do my best,
to do my duty to his Noodly Magnificence the FSM,
to serve my community,
to help other people and
to live by the Scout Law.

ShooterSF

recedite wrote: »

I propose this promise as an alternative.

Yay a schism! The S.P.B.N.A.

The Scouts Protected By Noodly Appendages. Oh wait...

Morag

dulpit wrote: »

Some background first:

In 1908 scouting was started in Ireland, that organisation became known as the Scouting Association of Ireland (SAI) and were, from day 1, multi-denominational. In 1927 the Catholic Boy Scouts of Ireland (CBSI, later CSI) were founded. In 2004 these 2 organisations (already in close relationship with each other) merged to become Scouting Ireland.

Yup The first scouting movement here was set up by Constance Markievicz,
but as she was considered a radical by the church and a possible corrupting influence on young people due to her out spokeness and politics, that CBSI was set up by Fr. Tom J. Farrell, and Fr. Ernest R. Farrell.

Yes CBSI merged into SI but for the last Euchrist congress they took part and Catholic scouts in other countries do the same.

The Eucharistic Congress

The ensuing years brought bigger numbers and more Troops, and in 1932 came the biggest Scout assignment. The Eucharistic Congress Celebrations were on a scale bigger than that of any Congress ever before held in Ireland, and the aid of the C.B.S.I. was asked for and readily given. From every county in Ireland Scouts came to great general camp in Terenure, where over 1,500 of them were under canvas for that week. The feeding and organisation of the camp was a masterpiece, but the work of the organisers did not, of course, stop there. Routes had to be cordoned off for the arrival of the Cardinal Legate, for his reception at the Pro-Cathedral and at the monster garden party held in Blackrock College, and for all this 500 Scouts were required. All the week they acted as guides to the polyglot meetings that were held every day at many centres in the city; stewarding had to be done at the mass meeting in the Phoenix Park, and all the time first aid posts had to be constantly manned by 400 trained Scouts. Then, on the final Sunday, Scouts acted as guards at the High Altar in the Park and at O'Connell Bridge, and 400 of them had charge of many Church and civil dignitaries and conducted them to their places. These tasks were no mere sinecures, but once more the training of the boys rose to the occasion and their conduct throughout the week received the highest praise.

As it may be no longer possible for Scouts to do this as part of SI, I wonder will they be making the overtures to CGI.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Guides_of_Ireland

The Black Oil

It was still CBSI when I joined, iirc, then the B was dropped and finally SI came into being. I still recall the snotty responses from some leaders if you said that you weren't going to mass.

seamus

Sharrow wrote: »

Yes CBSI merged into SI but for the last Euchrist congress they took part and Catholic scouts in other countries do the same.

The last Eucharistic Congress in Ireland was a looooong time before CBSI and SAI merged

It was a weird little merger that one. CBSI were accepting girl scouts at all levels for at least five years before they dropped the "B" from the name, but they'd been taking in girls at some levels for even longer than that.

One thing I always remember being told is that SAI were the protestant scouts and CBSI were the Catholic scouts. It was only later I discovered that SAI were multi-denominational as opposed to CBSI's strictly Catholic ethos.
This attitude stemmed from the fact that the SAI were initially under the authority of the British boy scouts as part of the commonwealth until the Republic was officially declared. This meant that the CBSI weren't recognised internationally as an "official" scouting organisation until CBSI and SAI formed a loose association.

But this attitude of Prods -v- Catholics is probably what kept the two associations apart for so long, surprise surprise. In hindsight, even though CBSI became a much bigger organisation, it was the one in the "wrong", as it was started as a Republican Catholic movement for no reason other than the sake of having a purely Catholic scouting association that excluded everyone else.

So it will be hard enough to shake the nationalism and catholicism out of the organisation, even with the merge.

Morag

That same divide keeps CGI and IGG apart.

recedite

The basic problem on the ground is that scouts and guides operate out of halls, and those halls are nearly always owned by a church.
If you look at the situation with schools, most of the new buildings being built are being allocated to secular patrons to balance things out a bit.
It won't happen with scouts though; the state does not supply community centre halls unfortunately. So the local priest/clergyman has a veto on who uses his hall.
Hence the troops remain divided, even though they are supposed to be "all the one" at the bureaucratic level.

FergusODowd

Of course if they could find one, they could always have their meets in the local Atheist commuinity hall in between Dawkins shows. :pac:

dulpit

recedite wrote: »

The basic problem on the ground is that scouts and guides operate out of halls, and those halls are nearly always owned by a church.
If you look at the situation with schools, most of the new buildings being built are being allocated to secular patrons to balance things out a bit.
It won't happen with scouts though; the state does not supply community centre halls unfortunately. So the local priest/clergyman has a veto on who uses his hall.
Hence the troops remain divided, even though they are supposed to be "all the one" at the bureaucratic level.

FWIW, in my scout county there are 9 scout troops active on a regular basis (with 2 new ones opening up). Of these 9 active troops 2 meet in local community halls, while the rest have their own scout halls. These halls are owned in various ways, and I'm assuming the church has something to do with one or two definitely (the halls are either on church grounds or very very close) but the rest, I don't know...

I do know my own hall is vested in a diocesan trust for the advancement of scouting, but the diocese/parish have no say in our business...

Banbh

So it boils down to the fact that as the Catholic Church owns or controls all the public meeting places, we must allow them to have influence over a children's organisation. Is this the price we pay for the special treatment they receive under the law?

If this is the bottom line, I am going to move my troop's meeting place to the spare room over the pub.

dulpit

Banbh wrote: »

So it boils down to the fact that as the Catholic Church owns or controls all the public meeting places, we must allow them to have influence over a children's organisation. Is this the price we pay for the special treatment they receive under the law?

If this is the bottom line, I am going to move my troop's meeting place to the spare room over the pub.

I genuinely think that the Catholic Church (or any other religious organisation for that matter) as an organisation exerts a grand total of 0 influence over Scouting Ireland.

However, there are quite a number of older leaders who still would be quite traditional in their thinking, which can causes issues.

Banbh

But the chaplains and spiritual advisers do exist.

Dades

Banbh wrote: »

But the chaplains and spiritual advisers do exist.

Do they ever turn up at meets? Or go on trips?

As long as they just write letters, let them.

Banbh

As long as they just write letters, let them

Why?
Scouting should be open to ALL with no belief having an undue influence.

Dades

Is it not open to all?

I don't think we've established what influence we're talking about either.

Galvasean

If the scout Chaplains are anything like the one's in my old secondary school I doubt there is much to fear in them exerting Catholic influence. The only time they eve appeared was to tell people about the latest charity event or cycling trip. You could visit them in their office if you had any concerns. Even the one who was a priest was never in anyway preachy about religion. Although my school, despite technically having a Catholic ethos (written in the back somewhere no doubt) was fairly progressive in terms of secularism.

I still don't think there's any much need for them though.

ShooterSF

Galvasean wrote: »

If the scout Chaplains are anything like the one's in my old secondary school I doubt there is much to fear in them exerting Catholic influence. The only time they eve appeared was to tell people about the latest charity event or cycling trip. You could visit them in their office if you had any concerns. Even the one who was a priest was never in anyway preachy about religion. Although my school, despite technically having a Catholic ethos (written in the back somewhere no doubt) was fairly progressive in terms of secularism.

I still don't think there's any much need for them though.

To me I guess it's similar to prayers before the Dail. It might have no direct impact and is just a remnant of our past but ties have to be cut and people need to realise that Catholicism is not just some harmless cultural artefact we can keep around. It's the principle godammit, as they say.

gaynorvader

Galvasean wrote: »

If the scout Chaplains are anything like the one's in my old secondary school I doubt there is much to fear in them exerting Catholic influence. The only time they eve appeared was to tell people about the latest charity event or cycling trip. You could visit them in their office if you had any concerns. Even the one who was a priest was never in anyway preachy about religion. Although my school, despite technically having a Catholic ethos (written in the back somewhere no doubt) was fairly progressive in terms of secularism.

I still don't think there's any much need for them though.

The only problem I can see is if they're being paid. Either by public money or by mandatory fees. Both are unfair to non-religious parties.

Galvasean

ShooterSF wrote: »

To me I guess it's similar to prayers before the Dail. It might have no direct impact and is just a remnant of our past but ties have to be cut and people need to realise that Catholicism is not just some harmless cultural artefact we can keep around. It's the principle godammit, as they say.

gaynorvader wrote: »

The only problem I can see is if they're being paid. Either by public money or by mandatory fees. Both are unfair to non-religious parties.

I agree. I do believe my school chaplains were required to honor an ancient 'ethos' based agreement.

robindch

Well, they took on the US nuns and a fight was promised. So now the US bishops launch an inquiry into... wait for it... girl scouts:

http://www.thejournal.ie/us-bishops-to-hold-official-inquiry-into-girl-scouts-teachings-447420-May2012/

The Journal wrote:

HAVING LONG SERVED as a lightning rod for conservative criticism, the Girl Scouts of the USA are now facing their highest-level challenge yet: an official inquiry by the US Conference of Catholic Bishops.

At issue are concerns about programme materials that some Catholics find offensive, as well as assertions that the Scouts associate with other groups espousing stances that conflict with church teaching. The Scouts, who have numerous parish-sponsored troops, deny many of the claims and defend their alliances. The inquiry coincides with the Scouts’ 100th anniversary celebrations and follows a chain of other controversies.

Earlier this year, legislators in Indiana and Alaska publicly called the Scouts into question, and the organisation was berated in a series aired by a Catholic broadcast network. Last year, the Scouts angered some conservatives by accepting a 7-year-old transgender child – who was born a boy but was being raised as a girl – into a Colorado troop.

Some of the concerns raised by Catholic critics are recycled complaints that have been denied by the Girl Scouts’ head office repeatedly and categorically. It says it has no partnership with Planned Parenthood, and does not take positions on sexuality, birth control and abortion. “It’s been hard to get the message out there as to what is true when distortions get repeated over and over,” said Gladys Padro-Soler, the Girl Scouts’ director of inclusive membership strategies.

In other instances, the scouts have modified materials that drew complaints — for example, dropping some references to playwright Josefina Lopez because one of her plays, ‘Simply Maria’, was viewed by critics as mocking the Catholic faith. The new inquiry will be conducted by the bishops’ Committee on Laity, Marriage, Family Life and Youth. It will look into the Scouts’ “possible problematic relationships with other organisations” and various “problematic” programme materials, according to a letter sent by the committee chairman, Bishop Kevin Rhoades, to his fellow bishops.

The bishops’ conference provided a copy of the letter to The Associated Press, but otherwise declined to comment.

‘Inclusiveness and cookie sales’

Girl Scout leaders hope the bishops’ apprehensions will be eased once they gather information. But there’s frustration within the iconic youth organisation — known for its inclusiveness and cookie sales — that it has become such an ideological target, with the girls sometimes caught in the political crossfire. “I know we’re a big part of the culture wars,” said the Girl Scouts’ spokeswoman, Michelle Tompkins. “People use our good name to advance their own agenda.

“For us, there’s an overarching sadness to it,” Tompkins added. “We’re just trying to further girls’ leadership.” With the bishops now getting involved, the stakes are high. The Girl Scouts estimate that one-fourth of their 2.3 million youth members are Catholic, and any significant exodus would be a blow given that membership already is down from a peak of more than 3 million several decades ago.

The inquiry coincides with a broader effort by the bishops to analyse church ties with outside groups. Rhoades’ committee plans to consult with Girl Scouts leaders and with the National Federation for Catholic Youth Ministry, which has been liaising with the Scouts for two years about various complaints. The federation’s executive director, Bob McCarty, praised the Girl Scouts for willingness to change some programme content. “I don’t think any of this material was intentionally mean-spirited,” McCarty said. “I think a lot of it was lack of attention.”

However, McCarty expressed doubt that the Girl Scouts’ most vehement critics would be satisfied regardless of what steps are taken. “It’s easier to step back and throw verbal bombs,” he said. “It takes a lot more energy to work for change.”

Banbh

The Girl Scouts estimate that one-fourth of their 2.3 million youth members are Catholic,

So the Catholic Church wants to dictate policy to the three-quarters that aren't Catholic.

robindch

Banbh wrote: »

So the Catholic Church wants to dictate policy to the three-quarters that aren't Catholic.

FYP!