Church interfering with Scouts

Mark Hamill

Scouter123 wrote: »

all major religions use prayer as a means to have a spiritual connection.

So scouting is now a religion?

Scouter123 wrote: »

i feel like my analofy works in what way does it not?

Passports are not analogous to prayers.

Scouter123

Mark Hamill wrote: »

So scouting is now a religion?


Passports are not analogous to prayers.

i didn't say scouting was a merely pointing out the fact that major religions use it. anything thing can be an analogy it is subjective

Mark Hamill

Scouter123 wrote: »

i didn't say scouting was a merely pointing out the fact that major religions use it

You pointed this out as a justification of scouts using it. But scouts aren't religions, so what justification of scouts have for having an official monotheistic prayer?

Scouter123

Mark Hamill wrote: »

You pointed this out as a justification of scouts using it. But scouts aren't religions, so what justification of scouts have for having an official monotheistic prayer?

because prayer can be part of scouting as a formal opening, many scouts have a religion of some sort, prayer can have a calming effect like music. should we start a new thread about religion in scouting as to the one in which we are now discussing?

lazygal

Scouter123 wrote: »

because prayer can be part of scouting as a formal opening, many scouts have a religion of some sort, prayer can have a calming effect like music. should we start a new thread about religion in scouting as to the one in which we are now discussing?

So what do the scouts without religion of any sort at a formal opening do while prayers are being said? Or scouts of a non monotheist background?

Mark Hamill

Scouter123 wrote: »

because prayer can be part of scouting as a formal opening, many scouts have a religion of some sort, prayer can have a calming effect like music. should we start a new thread about religion in scouting as to the one in which we are now discussing?

If the prayer is the formal opening of a scout meeting, then how can atheist/non-monotheist scouts be said to be part of that meeting if they don't take part of that formal opening?
If scouts are multi denominational, should their opening not also be multi denominational? Either an official secular promise or a personal moment of reflection (with whatever private personal refection each scout wants to make)?
Why not just use music, if you are just looking for a calming effect. Claiming instrumental music can be left on for the entire meeting, a calming sound in the background that doesn't distract from whatever the troop leader is saying.

Why is there a prayer at all? What have prayers, religion or spirituality objectively got to do with camping and outdoorsmanship?

recedite

Scouter123 wrote: »

people keep bringing this up when it was ten years ago

Would you agree that little has changed at individual troop level in those ten years since the merger?
So, an individual troop that was SAI 10 years ago, and was comprised of protestant kids attending the local C of I school, meeting in a hall on church or school grounds.... is still doing the same stuff under a different name.
A troop that was CBSI in the past, is still recruiting from the RC school/community with the RC chaplain still giving his "guidance".

Now I suspect you have observed the emergence of ET schools all over the country, and are thinking "How can we get all those kids into scouting?"

The answer is; you must dump all the prayers and chaplains.
Continue to use church halls for meetings if necessary, but only if there is absolutely no influence or interference from the landlords.

Bannasidhe

recedite wrote: »

Continue to use church halls for meetings if necessary, but only if there is absolutely no influence or interference from the landlords.

I am a member of a lesbian badminton club (I kid you not) and we play in a COI church hall. No prayers required- 'blasphemy' while playing not an issue. Never even seen the Vicar, we have a set of keys.

Banbh

Can anyone play lesbian badminton?

Bannasidhe

Banbh wrote: »

Can anyone play lesbian badminton?

Apparently not if my performance is anything to go by.

recedite

Anyone who can hit a shuttlevagina can play

lazygal

There's moves afoot to lift the ban on the gays in scouts in America!
http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/01/28/16739587-boy-scouts-close-to-ending-ban-on-gay-members-leaders?lite

Fortyniner

I watched a few minutes of Fox News this morning, when they covered this news item, quoting, as expected, some right wing nut jobs forecasting something like the end of the earth as we know it.

No surprise there, but then the news anchor moved on smoothly to point out that there are many safeguards in place, such as there being a requirement that no scout leader can be with the scouts on his own. I nearly exploded - there being a natural assumption that gay=paedophile, or gay=threat to other scouts. No explanation given, just moved on to the next item. Appalling. Breathtaking.

The Black Oil

I presume that's a fairly standard child protection requirement. It's over 10 years ago now, but I recall my scout leader at the time mentioning something like that, I would have been over 18 at the time, but other members were not.

Fortyniner

The Black Oil wrote: »

I presume that's a fairly standard child protection requirement. It's over 10 years ago now, but I recall my scout leader at the time mentioning something like that, I would have been over 18 at the time, but other members were not.

I'm sure it is a standard requirement. But what on earth has that to do with the recruitment of gay scouts? It's the assumption of a link that's so annoying..

Fortyniner

More confirmation of the histrionics of the religious right in the US..

http://www.christianpost.com/news/baptist-leaders-predict-mass-exodus-from-scouts-over-gay-leader-decision-89044/

Some of the comments are atrocious..

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John Roberts - Your wrong it is the homosexual who is more likely to molest a male child. That's common knowledge. Homosexuality is still abnormal just like pedophilia and bestiality.
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Read more at http://www.christianpost.com/news/baptist-leaders-predict-mass-exodus-from-scouts-over-gay-leader-decision-89044/#EgEkCAFbj4PP8GEg.99

feargale

I number among my friends one or two RC priests, at least one C of I minister, an ex-RC born again Pentecostalist minister, and an increasing number of atheists, agnostics, retired Christians, lapsed Catholics ( but no Catholic Lapps,) and people who believe that if you keep betting money on horses you will eventually come out on top. When my kids were going into scouting I was unhappy about them joining an organisation based on religion, but the nearest troop of the other lot was quite a distance away, so I gritted my teeth and had them join CBSI. I fail to see the need for a chaplain in scouting any more than in beach volleyball. Does your local under 10 soccer team have a chaplain? Your local chess club? I'm not au fait with the details, but I understood that the whole point of the amalgamation was to make the new organisation non-denominational. Does the Deity pay equal attention to prayers from conscripted Christians?

Banbh

If they got the chance they would be chaplaining soccer and beach vollyball.

I am reminded that there really are two forms of religion in the world:
One is where religious people just want to be left alone to attend their services, practise their dieting, kneeling and mumbling in the company of like-minded citizens. This form is adopted in countries where the religion is in a minority, such as Christians in Muslim-dominated countries and Muslims in Christian-dominated countries.
The other form is where the devout are in a majority and are solely concerned with enforcing their creed on on all members of society, particularly on those who are not members. This is the form of Christianity in place in Ireland where the greatest joy is derived from obliging the children of the godless to submit to their rituals.

Peregrinus

[Posted in error. Ignore.]

Peregrinus

Banbh wrote: »

If they got the chance they would be chaplaining soccer and beach vollyball.

I am reminded that there really are two forms of religion in the world:
One is where religious people just want to be left alone to attend their services, practise their dieting, kneeling and mumbling in the company of like-minded citizens. This form is adopted in countries where the religion is in a minority, such as Christians in Muslim-dominated countries and Muslims in Christian-dominated countries.
The other form is where the devout are in a majority and are solely concerned with enforcing their creed on on all members of society, particularly on those who are not members. This is the form of Christianity in place in Ireland where the greatest joy is derived from obliging the children of the godless to submit to their rituals.

Um. Wouldn't a scout troop with a denominational character be an example of the first form of religion? A bunch of like-minded citizens getting together? It's not as though people who disagree with the theistic dimension are forced to enroll their kids in the troop, is it?

The people who object to the existence of religious scout troops, on the other hand, look to have more in common with the second form of religion that you identify, no?

Banbh

But I don't accept that scouting should have a religious character. Children from non-religious families should have an equal right to participate.

The people who object to the existence of religious scout troops, on the other hand, look to have more in common with the second form of religion that you identify, no?

No. This would only be true if non-religion was a religion. Objecting to sports and cultural organisations - most of which receive funding from the State and all the community - being structured along sectarian lines does not put one into a quasi-religious camp.

Peregrinus

You seem to be saying that, because you think that scouting should be non-religious, therefore all scouting should be non-religious, and religious people getting together to practice religious scouting among themselves - the first form of religion - is unacceptable.

Do you not see the irony? You are taking exactly the stance that you object to in the second form of religion, but you think that's fine because you're not religiously motivated. You object to religious people demanding that everyone should be obliged to live in particular way, while at the same time making precisely that demand yourself.

If there's two forms of religion, perhaps there's also two analagous forms of secularism - and you are manifesting the second form.

oldrnwisr

Peregrinus wrote: »

You seem to be saying that, because you think that scouting should be non-religious, therefore all scouting should be non-religious, and religious people getting together to practice religious scouting among themselves - the first form of religion - is unacceptable.

Do you not see the irony? You are taking exactly the stance that you object to in the second form of religion, but you think that's fine because you're not religiously motivated. You object to religious people demanding that everyone should be obliged to live in particular way, while at the same time making precisely that demand yourself.

If there's two forms of religion, perhaps there's also two analagous forms of secularism - and you are manifesting the second form.

Well I don't know about Banbh but I don't see any irony.

You seem to have missed this part of Banbh's post.

Banbh wrote: »

No. This would only be true if non-religion was a religion. Objecting to sports and cultural organisations - most of which receive funding from the State and all the community - being structured along sectarian lines does not put one into a quasi-religious camp.

According to the 2010 Annual Report of Scouting Ireland the organisation receives funding through the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, attendance from government officials in an official capacity at their events and €4.3m in funding from SEUPB (Special EU Programmes Body).

The Scout Promise/Law from 2011 shows no variation in the promise at youth levels and even at adult level still requires "acceptance of a spiritual reality" which although ambiguous has a certain religious connotation.

The problem is that this runs counter to at least the spirit if not the letter of the law of both the state and the EU (those being two of the bodies funding the organisation).

It's really rather simple. The rules of the club (constitution) says that if it's getting public money then no religion. Simples.

It's not a matter of trying to force your opinion onto others, rather an expectation that a publicly funded organisation be run in line with the constitution.

feargale

Peregrinus wrote: »

Um. Wouldn't a scout troop with a denominational character be an example of the first form of religion? A bunch of like-minded citizens getting together? It's not as though people who disagree with the theistic dimension are forced to enroll their kids in the troop, is it?

Isn't that what the CBSI was, a troop with a denominational character? It no longer exists. Do you want to reconstitute it?

Banbh

I am opposed to Catholic scouting as I am opposed to Muslim cycling, lesbian badminton and red-haired canoeing but in a country where 80%, 70%, 60% or whatever identify as Catholic, the effect of hiving off any activity into a Catholic version means that that activity is effectively put beyond non-Catholics. This was the situation that existed in scouting before the merger.

There is a difference between an activity which is a part of a religion - such as Catholic praying, Muslim Koran reading and Protestant Bible classes - and the infiltration of religion into a sport or youth activity which does not have a religious aim.

In a republic, all citizens should have equal access to publicly funded organisations - scouts, schools, the law and the Presidency.

robindch

Banbh wrote: »

In a republic, all citizens should have equal access to publicly funded organisations - scouts, schools, the law and the Presidency.

I remember chatting years ago with a German friend of mine who was studying law in Trinity and we played the usual game of "Well, if you could enact one law, what would that be?" And I suggested that the state should prohibit all organizations whose house rules prevented their members from being members of any other organization. My friend was shocked and said, "But, do you know what that would do? It would outlaw most trade unions, most religions and the military!" "Yes, I know."

recedite

oldrnwisr wrote: »

According to the 2010 Annual Report of Scouting Ireland the organisation receives funding through the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, attendance from government officials in an official capacity at their events and €4.3m in funding from SEUPB (Special EU Programmes Body).

Eh.. not the SEUPB again... thats the same EU crowd that's donating the money to build a new HQ for the Orange Order up north. Makes you wonder if the "special" in the title means that at least some religious discrimination is mandatory for organisations that apply for funding.

special ;
adj. Euphemism for having a disability, esp. a behavioral or mental disability; low-functioning mental retardation in particular. Synonyms: different, feeble-minded, retarded.