Church interfering with Scouts

Banbh

The Catholic Church is trying to recruit scouts for its Dublin congress next month. A letter has been sent by the National Catholic Spiritual Adviser/Chaplain to all troops in the country looking to get kids to attend this event.

Scouting Ireland is supposedly a non-sectarian body for all scouts in Ireland and came about as the result of a merger between the Catholic Boy Scouts of Ireland and the Scout Association. Despite initial opposition from the Catholic bishops, the Catholic Church has been at pains to infiltrate the organisation, foisting chaplains and spiritual advisers on gullible parents.

(The letter is a bit long but will post it if necessary.)

magicbastarder

was the thread title deliberate?

robindch

Banbh wrote: »

(The letter is a bit long but will post it if necessary.)

Probably a good idea to post it if you have a copy and it's non-confidential?

Cracking thread title too, btw; very much in the vein of Baden-Powell's original book on scouting:

seamus

Scouting Ireland has in reality only existed for about ten years, up until then each scout troop had strong ties with, and in many cases was under the authority of, the local parish priest, with prayers and the like before each meeting and the local troop used extensively for church activities.

I imagine many of those running the troops would still retain those ties (even if the official stance has changed), and since most of the scout leaders would be individuals who came through scouts as children, involvement in the church activities would not be seen as anything strange.

I've been out of the organisation for 13 years now, so things might have changed, but I'd say a lot of parish priests still engage with the local troop a few times a year.

In any case, the church is entitled to send letters and make requests of any group that it wishes, but Scouting Ireland really should be publically admonishing the church for making representations to its troops on the basis of S.I.'s ethos.

(In fairness to scouting in Ireland, while there's a bit of sniggering about grown men spending alone time with groups of boys, it has a remarkably clean record considering historically that scout leaders went completely unvetted and children would be sent off for a weekend with an unrelated man. Scout leaders were never held in the same reverence that priests enjoyed, so it's most likely that paedophiles wouldn't see scouting as a safe hiding place, especially since there would always be other leaders there to keep an eye)

Doctor DooM

I used to date a girl who was the daughter of a protestant priest and her family were closely involved in scouting, they worked long and hard for the seperation from the church and I'd say their fuming at this right now.

lazygal

On St. Patrick's day last I popped to our local shop and observed the local Scout troop (children aged 8-about 18) were marching around the local square where the shop is located. Then then marched in file into the church. I was in that Scouts as a lass myself but I would have serious reservations about having my children join that group if there's a chance they'll be expected to march in file into a church. Does anyone know if the non-Christian/Catholic children are expected to be included or is it like school where they are simply left out of the religious bits to entertain themselves?

Dades

Sounds like a residual relationship issue. Breaking up is hard to.

I was in the CBSI as a kid though we used to use a local Protestant Church Hall. Don't remember any religious stuff at all.

The worst thing I remember was having my lightsaber confiscated one Halloween cub meeting.

Banbh

Scouting Ireland is not the CBSI (the Catholic Boy Scouts of Ireland). It is a new organisation that incorporates the former Scout Association (mostly Protestant) and the CBSI (wholly Catholic) and, as far as I can recall, one of the then Girl Guide bodies.
The Catholic Church has now taken it over, against the express rules and regulations of the organisation, disregarding the Protestants and any others.

Dades

Banbh wrote: »

The Catholic Church has now taken it over, against the express rules and regulations of the organisation, disregarding the Protestants and any others.

How have they taken over it?

I thought they had just sent letters looking for scout troops to join them on some church gig? The letters can be ignored, right?

They clearly see themselves as having some sort of representation within the scouting population. Would this be true?

Banbh

The letter begins: "In my role as National Catholic Spiritual Adviser/Chaplain..."
and is signed "Chairperson (National Spiritual and Religious Advisory Panel)".

My family are involved in local scouting at various levels and have never heard of such a panel or post. There was no election or job advertisement for such a post and it is in direct contradiction to the organisation's non-sectarian foundation.
Imagine if your darts club sent out similar letters! It is bizarre, that because the organisation involves children, people somehow find it acceptable for the biggest paedophile ring in the country to infiltrate it.

I'm sorry I cannot post the letter as it would reveal the source but I'll see if I can find anything about this person from Scouting Ireland.

legspin

I was asked to be a scout leader (I was in the Cubs in England and the Scouts here and my two eldest are in Cubs and Beavers). You should have seen the look I got when I told them that in all concience I couldn't take the oath.
When pushed I asked were they prepared to accept someone who had just told a deliberate lie, as a leader. It was very quickly dropped at that point.

magicbastarder

Banbh wrote: »

My family are involved in local scouting at various levels and have never heard of such a panel or post. There was no election or job advertisement for such a post and it is in direct contradiction to the organisation's non-sectarian foundation.

seems to be a legit part of the organisation, according to the standing orders:
https://my.scouts.ie/uploads/files/Official%20Documents/Official%20Documents/02%2003%20NMC%20Standing%20Orders.pdf

he forms part of the management committee, and the religious advisory panel is one of the standing committees.

HavingCrack

I always thought the Scouts had quite a Protestant tradition, didn't think Catholicism had much of an input. Back when I attended a good 14 years ago or so it definately had Protestant overtones if anything, not Catholic.

Dades

magicbastarder wrote: »

seems to be a legit part of the organisation, according to the standing orders:
https://my.scouts.ie/uploads/files/Official%20Documents/Official%20Documents/02%2003%20NMC%20Standing%20Orders.pdf

he forms part of the management committee, and the religious advisory panel is one of the standing committees.

So it seems the real question here is, if Scouting Ireland is a secular organisation, why do they have a "National Spiritual/ Religious Advisory Panel"?

As long as that role exists within the organisation, they'll never weed out the church influence. Until then, the church can claim they are only fulfilling that role (albeit in a completely catholic-centric fashion).

seamus

HavingCrack wrote: »

I always thought the Scouts had quite a Protestant tradition, didn't think Catholicism had much of an input. Back when I attended a good 14 years ago or so it definately had Protestant overtones if anything, not Catholic.

Might depend on whether you were in Scouting Ireland or C.B.S.I. before they merged.

The latter was definitely heavily affiliated with the Catholics. I can recall a number of times attending mass in full uniform, and a prayer/oath before each meeting. If you camped in Larch Hill during the summer, there would be a catholic mass held on Saturday evenings. There were also merit badges for religiousy things, IIRC.

It probably differed between troops though. Outside of being asked to do something by the PP, the leaders couldn't have given a ****e about religion, and we were never brought to mass when away camping (unless the mass was being given just around the corner, as above).

Newaglish

We were taught the following in scouts:

12 values/characteristics of a good scout:

A Scout is:
Loyal, Trustworthy, Helpful
Friendly, Courteous, Kind
Obedient, Cheerful, Thrifty
Brave, Pure,
and has God's glory in mind

The scout's promise:

On my honour, and with the help of God,
I, promise to do my best
To be true to my faith in Jesus Christ
and his Church
And to serve my community
And to live the Scout Law

and then the scout's prayer (which we always opened and closed with)

Dearest Jesus,
Teach me to be generous
Teach me to love and serve you
As you deserve,
To give and not to count the cost,
To fight and not to heed the wounds,
To toil and not to seek for rest,
To labour and to look for no reward,
Save that of knowing,
That I do your holy will,
Amen.

Looking back it's pretty damn creepy that they used to force us to rote learn these things and recite them in unison constantly.

I can't remember if it ever changed when I was there, I remember CBSI (Catholic Boy Scouts of Ireland) became CSI (Catholic Scouts of Ireland) when they felt it was discriminatory against girls and then it became SI (Scouting Ireland) a couple of years later but I don't think we ever changed any of those prayers or anything.

I don't see how frequent prayer was supposed to help me build a tripod out of sticks and ropes or put up a tent in the lashing rain in some field in Wexford.

robindch

Dades wrote: »

So it seems the real question here is, if Scouting Ireland is a secular organisation, why do they have a "National Spiritual/ Religious Advisory Panel"?

My child! Secular organizations are the very outfits that need spiritual guidance the most!

Mark 2:17 wrote:

When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Undergod

Remember that game where someone would spin around with a skipping rope and everyone else would stand around them and jump over the rope as it came towards them? One time when I was in scouts, I saw the older lads play that except instead of the skipping rope he had another person.

This actually happened. I didn't stay in scouts too long.

recedite

Dades wrote: »

So it seems the real question here is, if Scouting Ireland is a secular organisation, why do they have a "National Spiritual/ Religious Advisory Panel"?

Maybe its more ecumenical than secular. At least at the national org level. On the ground, at troop level, nothing has changed. I know there are two troops in my locality. One meets in the CoI hall and recruits kids from the adjacent CoI school. One meets in the RC hall and recruits kids from the adjacent RC school.
You can be sure this letter was only sent out to one of the two troops.

gaynorvader

About 2-3 years before the SAI merged with the CBSI to form SI, the Scout's promise was ammended to:

On my honour, I promise,
To do my best,
To do my duty to my community,
To help other people,
and to keep the Scout Law.

The amalgamation of the two groups was, IMO, the worst thing to happen to scouting in Ireland, as most of the higher echelons have been occupied by those who previously occupied similar positions in CBSI.

Also, the Scout Law at the time for those of you interested:

1. A Scout’s honour is to be trusted.
2. A Scout is loyal
3. A Scout’s duty is to be useful to help others.
4. A Scout is a friend to all and a brother to every other Scout.
5. A Scout is courteous.
6. A Scout is a friend to animals.
7. A Scout obeys orders of his parents, patrol leader or Scoutmaster without question.
8. A Scout smiles and whistles under all difficulties.
9. A Scout is thrifty.
10. A Scout is clean in thought, word and deed.

Banbh

It seems then that the Catholic Church has successfully taken over. They get in anywhere that there are kids.

I don't suppose there is any appetite to start a new priest-free scouting body.

Dades

So what is the current Scout's promise?

Does anyone know what's currently spoken rather than what was spoken in their day - or does it depend on what branch you were in before the merger?

gaynorvader

Dades wrote: »

So what is the current Scout's promise?

Does anyone know what's currently spoken rather than what was spoken in their day - or does it depend on what branch you were in before the merger?

Currently it's as follows:

On my honour I promise that I will do my best,
to do my duty to God,
to serve my community,
to help other people and
to live by the Scout Law.

Delirium

gaynorvader wrote: »

Currently it's as follows:

According to scouttalk.ie, there's two versions

On my honour I promise that I will do my best, to do my duty to God, to serve my community, to help other people and to live by the Scout Law.

OR

On my honour I promise that I will do my best to further my understanding and acceptance of a Spiritual Reality, to serve my community, to help other people and to live by the Scout Law.

Link

gaynorvader

koth wrote: »

According to scouttalk.ie, there's two versions

Both exclude atheism! :P

Delirium

gaynorvader wrote: »

Both exclude atheism! :P

pretty sure atheism and spiritual aren't mutually exclusive.;)

gizmo555

Banbh wrote: »

It seems then that the Catholic Church has successfully taken over. They get in anywhere that there are kids.

I don't suppose there is any appetite to start a new priest-free scouting body.

I have been a scout leader for several years in my local troop and I cannot recall any contact, of any kind, with local Catholic clergy (or other denominations for that matter). The closest we've come to formal religious observance is marching in the St Patrick's day parade.

gaynorvader

koth wrote: »

pretty sure atheism and spiritual aren't mutually exclusive.;)

I would have said they were, but this is not the place to debate that!

Dades

I promise that I will do my best to further my understanding and acceptance of a Spiritual Reality

WTF?

That sounds like a really odd declaration. Sounds like they had to exclude "God" but made sure a lot of those darned, dirty atheists got left in the cold.

Yeah, they're not mutually exclusive, but "acceptance of a Spiritual Reality" is a stretch for most!

dulpit

It would appear that a grand total of no current member of Scouting Ireland has posted here, so let me rectify that. (I am a venture leader and secretary of my scout group in Cork)

Some background first:

In 1908 scouting was started in Ireland, that organisation became known as the Scouting Association of Ireland (SAI) and were, from day 1, multi-denominational. In 1927 the Catholic Boy Scouts of Ireland (CBSI, later CSI) were founded. In 2004 these 2 organisations (already in close relationship with each other) merged to become Scouting Ireland.

Article 2 of Scouting Ireland's constitution states "Scouting Ireland is a voluntary, uniformed, non-formal educational movement
for young people. It is independent, non-political, open to all without
distinction of origin, race, creed, gender, sexual orientation, or ability, in
accordance with the purpose, principles and method conceived by the
Founder, Robert Baden-Powell and as stated by the World Organisation of
the Scout Movement."

Basically we are not attached to any religious organisation, although there is a duty to god/spirituality as part of Scouting Ireland (this is a worldwide thing), does not necessarily mean any specific religious god/etc.

On the point of scouts being asked to help out with the Eucharistic Congress, it should be noted that scouts would be expected to help out in community/etc, in both small and large scale events. e.g. scouts were big helpers at the Special Olympics in 2003.

My reading of the request for help is that it is entirely at the whim of the scouts/leaders to decide if they want to help out, there is no "Catholic influence" at play here.
We do have a chaplain, although what he does it beyond me.

dulpit

Dades wrote: »

WTF?

That sounds like a really odd declaration. Sounds like they had to exclude "God" but made sure a lot of those darned, dirty atheists got left in the cold.

Yeah, they're not mutually exclusive, but "acceptance of a Spiritual Reality" is a stretch for most!

Technically speaking to be a member of Scouting Ireland you need to believe in something, that's a WOSM directive

gizmo555

dulpit wrote: »

It would appear that a grand total of no current member of Scouting Ireland has posted here, so let me rectify that.

Ahem . . .

gizmo555 wrote: »

I have been a scout leader for several years in my local troop

(Although I freely concede, I'm not from Cork.)

Banbh

Ahem, ahem.
The fact that a troop hasn't been bothered by the chaplain or spiritual adviser doesn't take from the fact that they are there - and they shouldn't be.

ShooterSF

dulpit wrote: »

Technically speaking to be a member of Scouting Ireland you need to believe in something, that's a WOSM directive

Wow I've gave money to scouts fundraisers! That's the end of that chapter! I will not donate to an organisation which discriminates even if it's loosely worded and the command came from upstairs.

Banbh

You need to believe in something? Even if that were true would Santa Claus or the rights of man do? That's a big leap to Catholic chaplains and spiritual advisers.
Why not just believe in scouting?

robindch

dulpit wrote: »

Technically speaking to be a member of Scouting Ireland you need to believe in something, that's a WOSM directive

How exactly do the WOSM phrase it?

I believe "in" law, justice, money, the food supply, honesty, love and much else besides. Does that count? Or are they specifically looking for scouts to assert the existence of an invisible, parallel-universe, omnibenevolent cloud-god?

FergusODowd

Banbh wrote: »

You need to believe in something?

Is that not the freemasons ?

gizmo555

Banbh wrote: »

The fact that a troop hasn't been bothered by the chaplain or spiritual adviser doesn't take from the fact that they are there - and they shouldn't be.

Why not?

Banbh

Because it is a scouting organisation for young people.

Should all children's organisations - for example, swimming clubs, drama societies, music groups - have clerical advisers or spiritual chaplains? Of course not. This is a country of citizens who have different religions and none. They are entitled to equal treatment. For one organisation, the Catholic Church to infiltrate children's organisations which are open to all, is unjust.

Ironically, it is exactly this arrogant attitude, that they have a right to be wherever there are kids, that they have a right to have their views put above all others, that is tearing that organisation apart.

recedite

I propose this promise as an alternative.

On my honour I promise that I will do my best,
to do my duty to his Noodly Magnificence the FSM,
to serve my community,
to help other people and
to live by the Scout Law.

ShooterSF

recedite wrote: »

I propose this promise as an alternative.

Yay a schism! The S.P.B.N.A.

The Scouts Protected By Noodly Appendages. Oh wait...

Morag

dulpit wrote: »

Some background first:

In 1908 scouting was started in Ireland, that organisation became known as the Scouting Association of Ireland (SAI) and were, from day 1, multi-denominational. In 1927 the Catholic Boy Scouts of Ireland (CBSI, later CSI) were founded. In 2004 these 2 organisations (already in close relationship with each other) merged to become Scouting Ireland.

Yup The first scouting movement here was set up by Constance Markievicz,
but as she was considered a radical by the church and a possible corrupting influence on young people due to her out spokeness and politics, that CBSI was set up by Fr. Tom J. Farrell, and Fr. Ernest R. Farrell.

Yes CBSI merged into SI but for the last Euchrist congress they took part and Catholic scouts in other countries do the same.

The Eucharistic Congress

The ensuing years brought bigger numbers and more Troops, and in 1932 came the biggest Scout assignment. The Eucharistic Congress Celebrations were on a scale bigger than that of any Congress ever before held in Ireland, and the aid of the C.B.S.I. was asked for and readily given. From every county in Ireland Scouts came to great general camp in Terenure, where over 1,500 of them were under canvas for that week. The feeding and organisation of the camp was a masterpiece, but the work of the organisers did not, of course, stop there. Routes had to be cordoned off for the arrival of the Cardinal Legate, for his reception at the Pro-Cathedral and at the monster garden party held in Blackrock College, and for all this 500 Scouts were required. All the week they acted as guides to the polyglot meetings that were held every day at many centres in the city; stewarding had to be done at the mass meeting in the Phoenix Park, and all the time first aid posts had to be constantly manned by 400 trained Scouts. Then, on the final Sunday, Scouts acted as guards at the High Altar in the Park and at O'Connell Bridge, and 400 of them had charge of many Church and civil dignitaries and conducted them to their places. These tasks were no mere sinecures, but once more the training of the boys rose to the occasion and their conduct throughout the week received the highest praise.

As it may be no longer possible for Scouts to do this as part of SI, I wonder will they be making the overtures to CGI.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Guides_of_Ireland

The Black Oil

It was still CBSI when I joined, iirc, then the B was dropped and finally SI came into being. I still recall the snotty responses from some leaders if you said that you weren't going to mass.

seamus

Sharrow wrote: »

Yes CBSI merged into SI but for the last Euchrist congress they took part and Catholic scouts in other countries do the same.

The last Eucharistic Congress in Ireland was a looooong time before CBSI and SAI merged

It was a weird little merger that one. CBSI were accepting girl scouts at all levels for at least five years before they dropped the "B" from the name, but they'd been taking in girls at some levels for even longer than that.

One thing I always remember being told is that SAI were the protestant scouts and CBSI were the Catholic scouts. It was only later I discovered that SAI were multi-denominational as opposed to CBSI's strictly Catholic ethos.
This attitude stemmed from the fact that the SAI were initially under the authority of the British boy scouts as part of the commonwealth until the Republic was officially declared. This meant that the CBSI weren't recognised internationally as an "official" scouting organisation until CBSI and SAI formed a loose association.

But this attitude of Prods -v- Catholics is probably what kept the two associations apart for so long, surprise surprise. In hindsight, even though CBSI became a much bigger organisation, it was the one in the "wrong", as it was started as a Republican Catholic movement for no reason other than the sake of having a purely Catholic scouting association that excluded everyone else.

So it will be hard enough to shake the nationalism and catholicism out of the organisation, even with the merge.

Morag

That same divide keeps CGI and IGG apart.

recedite

The basic problem on the ground is that scouts and guides operate out of halls, and those halls are nearly always owned by a church.
If you look at the situation with schools, most of the new buildings being built are being allocated to secular patrons to balance things out a bit.
It won't happen with scouts though; the state does not supply community centre halls unfortunately. So the local priest/clergyman has a veto on who uses his hall.
Hence the troops remain divided, even though they are supposed to be "all the one" at the bureaucratic level.

FergusODowd

Of course if they could find one, they could always have their meets in the local Atheist commuinity hall in between Dawkins shows. :pac:

dulpit

recedite wrote: »

The basic problem on the ground is that scouts and guides operate out of halls, and those halls are nearly always owned by a church.
If you look at the situation with schools, most of the new buildings being built are being allocated to secular patrons to balance things out a bit.
It won't happen with scouts though; the state does not supply community centre halls unfortunately. So the local priest/clergyman has a veto on who uses his hall.
Hence the troops remain divided, even though they are supposed to be "all the one" at the bureaucratic level.

FWIW, in my scout county there are 9 scout troops active on a regular basis (with 2 new ones opening up). Of these 9 active troops 2 meet in local community halls, while the rest have their own scout halls. These halls are owned in various ways, and I'm assuming the church has something to do with one or two definitely (the halls are either on church grounds or very very close) but the rest, I don't know...

I do know my own hall is vested in a diocesan trust for the advancement of scouting, but the diocese/parish have no say in our business...

Banbh

So it boils down to the fact that as the Catholic Church owns or controls all the public meeting places, we must allow them to have influence over a children's organisation. Is this the price we pay for the special treatment they receive under the law?

If this is the bottom line, I am going to move my troop's meeting place to the spare room over the pub.

dulpit

Banbh wrote: »

So it boils down to the fact that as the Catholic Church owns or controls all the public meeting places, we must allow them to have influence over a children's organisation. Is this the price we pay for the special treatment they receive under the law?

If this is the bottom line, I am going to move my troop's meeting place to the spare room over the pub.

I genuinely think that the Catholic Church (or any other religious organisation for that matter) as an organisation exerts a grand total of 0 influence over Scouting Ireland.

However, there are quite a number of older leaders who still would be quite traditional in their thinking, which can causes issues.

Banbh

But the chaplains and spiritual advisers do exist.