Church interfering with Scouts

MrPudding

FergusODowd wrote: »

Is that not the freemasons ?

Quite similar it would seem. I was at a freemason's function recently and grace before the meal was directed at "The great Architect of the Universe." There was also a prayer after the meal, which I greatly regret not remembering, which was basically a plee to something or someone not to get indigestion.

MrP

Banbh

FYP!

Sorry but I'm not au fait with the latest buzz words. What does it mean?

MrPudding

Fixed your post.

MrP

Banbh

Much obliged M'Lod.

MrPudding

Banbh wrote: »

Much obliged M'Lod.

Don't mention it.

MrP

robindch

Banbh wrote: »

Sorry but I'm not au fait with the latest buzz words.

Google is your friend:

define:fyp

Banbh

TVMT!

Scouter123

Banbh wrote: »

It seems then that the Catholic Church has successfully taken over. They get in anywhere that there are kids.

I don't suppose there is any appetite to start a new priest-free scouting body.

Ahem, ahem.
The fact that a troop hasn't been bothered by the chaplain or spiritual adviser doesn't take from the fact that they are there - and they shouldn't be.

Banbh wrote: »

So it boils down to the fact that as the Catholic Church owns or controls all the public meeting places, we must allow them to have influence over a children's organisation. Is this the price we pay for the special treatment they receive under the law?

If this is the bottom line, I am going to move my troop's meeting place to the spare room over the pub.

Right so, im a bit late to this but any way.
The church has zero influence over scouts in my view. They do not dictate anything to us. Most scout halls are just that, scout halls not on church property(Church of Ireland or catholic, which are one are you talking about Banbh?)
We have several things we aim to build in young people Social Physical Intellectual Character Emotional Spiritual (SPICES). Things needed to build a good citizen.
Im a scout and i have no bones about it that i am pro secular. I see a need for people to make up their own minds on issues and not have it forced on them, one learns better if you get it your yourself. I am also agnostic (raised catholic) but i see no problem in being in scouts, it gives you so many opportunities that i wouldn't have had otherwise.
the scout prayer is:
Dear lord
teach me to be generous
teach me to love and serve you as you deserve
to give and not to count the cost
to fight and not to heed the wounds
to toil and not to rest
to labour and look for no reward
save that of knowing that i do your will
amen
thats wat ive heard used it is as multi denominational as prayers go to highlight all major religions' beliefs. A spiritual reality is one in which you accept something whether god, spaghetti monster in the sky or nothing. lord refers to any deity the scout may believe in.

MagicMarker

Scouter123 wrote: »

Right so, im a bit late to this but any way.
The church has zero influence over scouts in my view. They do not dictate anything to us. Most scout halls are just that, scout halls not on church property(Church of Ireland or catholic, which are one are you talking about Banbh?)
We have several things we aim to build in young people Social Physical Intellectual Character Emotional Spiritual (SPICES). Things needed to build a good citizen.
Im a scout and i have no bones about it that i am pro secular. I see a need for people to make up their own minds on issues and not have it forced on them, one learns better if you get it your yourself. I am also agnostic (raised catholic) but i see no problem in being in scouts, it gives you so many opportunities that i wouldn't have had otherwise.
the scout prayer is:
Dear lord
teach me to be generous
teach me to love and serve you as you deserve
to give and not to count the cost
to fight and not to heed the wounds
to toil and not to rest
to labour and look for no reward
save that of knowing that i do your will
amen
thats wat ive heard used it is as multi denominational as prayers go to highlight all major religions' beliefs. A spiritual reality is one in which you accept something whether god, spaghetti monster in the sky or nothing. lord refers to any deity the scout may believe in.

And if the scout doesn't believe in any deity?

Also, I'm not in the least bit spiritual, can I not be a good citizen?

Mark Hamill

Scouter123 wrote: »

lord refers to any deity the scout may believe in.

And what does it refer to if the scout believes in no deity?

lazygal

Dear lord
teach me to be generous
teach me to love and serve you as you deserve
to give and not to count the cost
to fight and not to heed the wounds
to toil and not to rest
to labour and look for no reward
save that of knowing that i do your will
amen


This prayer is not multi denominational. Its appeals to a specifically Christian deity and excludes anyone of a polytheist background. It also excludes those of no faith. It also refers to serving a God so as to do his will, which would suggest an evangelical-ising element to it. In short, its bull to say its about a 'spiritual reality'. We're raising our child in no faith, she has reality, not 'spiritualism'.

kuro_man

Spiritual Reality = there is no God
I can believe in that

Scouter123

kuro_man wrote: »

Spiritual Reality = there is no God
I can believe in that

Yep as far as I'm aware that counts

Mark Hamill wrote: »

And what does it refer to if the scout believes in no deity?

scout wouln't be saying the prayer if s/he didn't want to or doesn't believe in a god

MagicMarker wrote: »

And if the scout doesn't believe in any deity?

Also, I'm not in the least bit spiritual, can I not be a good citizen?

i don't care if anybody is the least bit spiritual, if you respect the rule of law, care for other people and help them thats what i'd call a good citizen, things like the SPICES are to help in the development of a citizen. Also i didn't say you weren't a good citizen.

Bannasidhe

lazygal wrote: »

Dear lord
teach me to be generous
teach me to love and serve you as you deserve
to give and not to count the cost
to fight and not to heed the wounds
to toil and not to rest
to labour and look for no reward
save that of knowing that i do your will
amen


This prayer is not multi denominational. Its appeals to a specifically Christian deity and excludes anyone of a polytheist background. It also excludes those of no faith. It also refers to serving a God so as to do his will, which would suggest an evangelical-ising element to it. In short, its bull to say its about a 'spiritual reality'. We're raising our child in no faith, she has reality, not 'spiritualism'.

Certainly seems to me to be more Theist nonsense posing as 'good citizenship'.

Would it kill them to have something actually inclusive like:

As I Scout I will strive to
be generous
to love and serve my community
to give and not to count the cost
to fight and not to heed the wounds
to toil and not to rest
to labour and look for no reward
to be a good citizen.

????

Still think all of this making pledges stuff is a bit....*danger of Godwinning*....icky.

MagicMarker

Scouter123 wrote: »

i don't care if anybody is the least bit spiritual, if you respect the rule of law, care for other people and help them thats what i'd call a good citizen, things like the SPICES are to help in the development of a citizen. Also i didn't say you weren't a good citizen.

It's odd that you don't care if anybody is the least bit spiritual when it is your "aim to build in young people" spirituality.

Scouter123

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Certainly seems to me to be more Theist nonsense posing as 'good citizenship'.

Would it kill them to have something actually inclusive like:

As I Scout I will strive to
be generous
to love and serve my community
to give and not to count the cost
to fight and not to heed the wounds
to toil and not to rest
to labour and look for no reward
to be a good citizen.

????

Still think all of this making pledges stuff is a bit....*danger of Godwinning*....icky.

i agree with you changing it and it is not "Theist nonsense posing as 'good citizenship'." scouting is multi denominational and is open to all regardless of race, gender, sexual orientation or creed. irish scouting is one of the most open in the world in comparison to say the american BSA which is tied to the church of mormon unlike ireland which is not, not, tied to any church.
it is not a pledge an irish scout makes but a promise like a promise you make to your friends to get to a concert in time. you bdon't always get there on time but you try your best to.

MagicMarker

Scouter123 wrote: »

scouting is multi denominational and is open to all regardless of race, gender, sexual orientation or creed.

Except if you're an atheist.

Bannasidhe

Scouter123 wrote: »

i agree with you changing it and it is not "Theist nonsense posing as 'good citizenship'." scouting is multi denominational and is open to all regardless of race, gender, sexual orientation or creed. irish scouting is one of the most open in the world in comparison to say the american BSA which is tied to the church of mormon unlike ireland which is not, not, tied to any church.
it is not a pledge an irish scout makes but a promise like a promise you make to your friends to get to a concert in time. you bdon't always get there on time but you try your best to.

A promise that specifically refers to a 'Dear Lord' and asks that Lord to teach them 'to love and serve you as you deserve'. That is a prayer.

Multi-denominational as long as one has A 'Dear Lord' - what about those who have Gods and Godesses? Or those who have none?
Are they to be excluded by being forced to remain silent thereby setting up divisions?

Why bring a 'Lord' into it at all?

My son left the Scouts as he couldn't tolerate the praying part...

Scouter123

MagicMarker wrote: »

It's odd that you don't care if anybody is the least bit spiritual when it is your "aim to build in young people" spirituality.

thank you for that to clarify spirituality is only one of SIX things we aim to develop. the above statement is in relation to being a good citizen, you don't have to be a spiritual person to do good deeds and respectful of the law.

Bannasidhe

Scouter123 wrote: »

thank you for that to clarify spirituality is only one of SIX things we aim to develop. the above statement is in relation to being a good citizen, you don't have to be a spiritual person to do good deeds and respectful of the law.

No you don't.

There is no need to bring spirituality into concepts of good citizenship at all.

Scouter123

Bannasidhe wrote: »

No you don't.

There is no need to bring spirituality into concepts of good citizenship at all.

thats wat i just said

Scouter123

Bannasidhe wrote: »

A promise that specifically refers to a 'Dear Lord' and asks that Lord to teach them 'to love and serve you as you deserve'. That is a prayer.

Multi-denominational as long as one has A 'Dear Lord' - what about those who have Gods and Godesses? Or those who have none?
Are they to be excluded by being forced to remain silent thereby setting up divisions?

Why bring a 'Lord' into it at all?

My son left the Scouts as he couldn't tolerate the praying part...

Lord refers to a supreme deity (dont get me started over that;)) i know in hinduism there is a supreme deity! the scout promise does not refer to a lord

oldrnwisr

Scouter123 wrote: »

i agree with you changing it and it is not "Theist nonsense posing as 'good citizenship'." scouting is multi denominational and is open to all regardless of race, gender, sexual orientation or creed. irish scouting is one of the most open in the world in comparison to say the american BSA which is tied to the church of mormon unlike ireland which is not, not, tied to any church.
it is not a pledge an irish scout makes but a promise like a promise you make to your friends to get to a concert in time. you bdon't always get there on time but you try your best to.

Just a couple of points.

I don't know how you can think that the current scout prayer is in any way multi-denominational or inclusive. After all its just a watered down rather than properly revised version of the original:

Current

Dear lord
teach me to be generous
teach me to love and serve you as you deserve
to give and not to count the cost
to fight and not to heed the wounds
to toil and not to rest
to labour and look for no reward
save that of knowing that i do your will
amen

Original

Dearest Jesus, teach me to be generous,
Teach me to love and serve as you deserve;
To give and not to count the cost;
To fight and not to heed the wounds;
To toil and not to seek for rest;
To labour and to look for no reward
Save that of knowing that I do Thy Holy Will.
Amen.

All you've really done is watered it down to make it slightly less offensive. It is still in no way multi-denominational or inclusive as lazygal pointed out.


Secondly, with regard to your point about Irish scouting being one of the most open in the world. If that were the case then why is the scout prayer retained over a scout promise that would really be inclusive like these:

Belgium

I promise, on my honour, to try:
To be loyal to a higher ideal, our group and democracy
To obey the guides/Scouts law
To help where possible

Denmark

On my honor I promise to do my best
To be faithful to my country,
Be helpful at all times
And to keep the Scout Law.

Israel

I promise to do my best
to fulfill my duties
to my people, my country and my land,
to help others at all times
and to obey the Scout Law.


What's wrong with any of these promises? Even with the watered down language there are still some pretty abhorrent phrases in there like "serve you as you deserve" and "knowing that I do your will".

Bannasidhe

Scouter123 wrote: »

the scout prayer is:
Dear lord
teach me to be generous
teach me to love and serve you as you deserve
to give and not to count the cost
to fight and not to heed the wounds
to toil and not to rest
to labour and look for no reward
save that of knowing that i do your will
amen
.

Scouter123 wrote: »

Lord refers to a supreme deity (dont get me started over that;)) i know in hinduism there is a supreme deity! the scout promise does not refer to a lord

You were the one who said the Scout Prayer did - I simply responded to that...

Scouter123

oldrnwisr wrote: »

Just a couple of points.

I don't know how you can think that the current scout prayer is in any way multi-denominational or inclusive. After all its just a watered down rather than properly revised version of the original:

Current

Dear lord
teach me to be generous
teach me to love and serve you as you deserve
to give and not to count the cost
to fight and not to heed the wounds
to toil and not to rest
to labour and look for no reward
save that of knowing that i do your will
amen

Original

Dearest Jesus, teach me to be generous,
Teach me to love and serve as you deserve;
To give and not to count the cost;
To fight and not to heed the wounds;
To toil and not to seek for rest;
To labour and to look for no reward
Save that of knowing that I do Thy Holy Will.
Amen.

All you've really done is watered it down to make it slightly less offensive. It is still in no way multi-denominational or inclusive as lazygal pointed out.


Secondly, with regard to your point about Irish scouting being one of the most open in the world. If that were the case then why is the scout prayer retained over a scout promise that would really be inclusive like these:

Belgium

I promise, on my honour, to try:
To be loyal to a higher ideal, our group and democracy
To obey the guides/Scouts law
To help where possible

Denmark

On my honor I promise to do my best
To be faithful to my country,
Be helpful at all times
And to keep the Scout Law.

Israel

I promise to do my best
to fulfill my duties
to my people, my country and my land,
to help others at all times
and to obey the Scout Law.


What's wrong with any of these promises? Even with the watered down language there are still some pretty abhorrent phrases in there like "serve you as you deserve" and "knowing that I do your will".

Bannasidhe wrote: »

You were the one who said the Scout Prayer did - I simply responded to that...

that is the scout prayer not the scout promise

Bannasidhe

Scouter123 wrote: »

that is the scout prayer not the scout promise

Why is there a Scout prayer in the first place?

oldrnwisr

Scouter123 wrote: »

that is the scout prayer not the scout promise

Granted, but why is it necessary or desirable to have a scout prayer and a scout promise. Surely the scout promise on its own should be enough. A Jesuit prayer should have no place in the organisation.

Scouter123

how many of you are current members of Scouting Ireland?
how many of you were scouts ?
i do realise this is in an Atheism and Agnosticism thread but this is also a scout topic

oldrnwisr wrote: »

Granted, but why is it necessary or desirable to have a scout prayer and a scout promise. Surely the scout promise on its own should be enough. A Jesuit prayer should have no place in the organisation.

It is part of a tradition that has gone back more than 100 years, that's why and there is still a desire in scouting to retain a link with learning about religion.
I am not here to argue with people, I am not here to force anything on anybody and I hope others are here for the samea reason, not to fight with each other but to have a discussion in which we are all listened to and respected.

Scouter123

these are a selection of prayers also used at our meetings
Prayer for Scouts
Lord, thank you for bringing us
together in Scouting. Be with our
Troop and all its members. Keep us
loyal to our Promise, to each other
and to ourselves; and in everything we
do, help us to put other people first.
Amen.

Prayer for Venture Scouts
Lord, we thank you for the
opportunities we have in Venture
Scouts; opportunities to develop our
skills and talents, to discover our place
in the world and how we can make it
a better place, to make friends. May
our Unit be a place of growth and trust
guided by the Law and the Promise.
Amen.

it may still have lord and amen in it but they are used and are not taken from Ignatian thought

Standman

Scouter123 wrote: »

how many of you are current members of Scouting Ireland?
how many of you were scouts ?
i do realise this is in an Atheism and Agnosticism thread but this is also a scout topic


It is part of a tradition that has gone back more than 100 years, that's why and there is still a desire in scouting to retain a link with learning about religion.
I am not here to argue with people, I am not here to force anything on anybody and I hope others are here for the samea reason, not to fight with each other but to have a discussion in which we are all listened to and respected.

Is this how you "learn about religion"? By implicitly indicating that there is a particular one of them is true?