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Church interfering with Scouts

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    #92
    Sarky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 31,967 ✭✭✭✭Sarky


    I don't think you're helping your case by providing a choice of Christian prayers...


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    #93
    Scouter123
    Registered Users Posts: 74 ✭✭Scouter123


    this the Scout Law:
    a) A Scout is to be trusted.
    b) A Scout is loyal.
    c) A Scout is helpful and considerate to all.
    d) A Scout has courage in all difficulties.
    e) A Scout makes good use of time and is
    careful of possessions and property.
    f) A Scout has respect for self and others.
    g) A Scout respects nature and the
    environment.
    this is the foundation of scouting not a prayer(it just sums it up)
    the thing about scouting is that kids just want to have fun, go away on great camps, hang out with friends, go to a disco, and have an adventure doing it all.
    scouting is about "playing the game" and having fun while doing it!


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    #94
    Scouter123
    Registered Users Posts: 74 ✭✭Scouter123


    Standman wrote: »
    Is this how you "learn about religion"? By implicitly indicating that there is a particular one of them is true?

    religion in general


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    #95
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,425 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    Doctor DooM wrote: »
    I used to date a girl who was the daughter of a protestant priest and her family were closely involved in scouting, they worked long and hard for the seperation from the church and I'd say their fuming at this right now.
    Let them fume it's only a request, those who are RC do not have to volunteer, live and let live. I wouldn't see the RC complain if a Rabb, cleric, organisers of the ploughing championship made an equal request.


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    #96
    Scouter123
    Registered Users Posts: 74 ✭✭Scouter123


    we'd consider any request from our community


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    #97
    oldrnwisr
    Registered Users Posts: 1,594 ✭✭✭oldrnwisr


    Scouter123 wrote: »
    how many of you are current members of Scouting Ireland?
    how many of you were scouts ?
    i do realise this is in an Atheism and Agnosticism thread but this is also a scout topic


    It is part of a tradition that has gone back more than 100 years, that's why and there is still a desire in scouting to retain a link with learning about religion.
    I am not here to argue with people, I am not here to force anything on anybody and I hope others are here for the samea reason, not to fight with each other but to have a discussion in which we are all listened to and respected.

    Well you see there's your problem.

    First of all, tradition isn't really a valid argument for anything.

    Appeal to tradition

    Secondly, what you're actually doing is promoting an atmosphere of tolerance rather than inclusiveness. You're not attempting to include people of all faiths and none. If that was really an objective of the organisation then you would scrap the current prayer or at least introduce a properly secular alternative. Instead, by adhering to tradition and falsely assuming that there is something beneficial to be gained in learning about religion what you've really done is say "well we'll let you in to our club but you still have to do things our way." That's not really being that inclusive. Why is there a desire to retain a link with learning about religion, and for that matter whose religion?

    Oh, and finally, the other "alternative prayers" still open by praying to a lord which still excludes thouse without religion and buddhists and any other adherent of a religion without a lord.


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    #98
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Scouter123 wrote: »
    we'd consider any request from our community
    What about those from a non Christian community who feel they can't join because they disagree with the oath? Or is there simply no one from those communities in scouting looking for change because they all come from the same background?
    PS I was in scouts at an age where I didn't think too deeply about the oath, but couldn't send my daughter, who is of no faith, to scouts if she was required to take such an oath.


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    #99
    Scouter123
    Registered Users Posts: 74 ✭✭Scouter123


    oldrnwisr wrote: »
    Well you see there's your problem.

    First of all, tradition isn't really a valid argument for anything.

    Appeal to tradition

    Secondly, what you're actually doing is promoting an atmosphere of tolerance rather than inclusiveness. You're not attempting to include people of all faiths and none. If that was really an objective of the organisation then you would scrap the current prayer or at least introduce a properly secular alternative. Instead, by adhering to tradition and falsely assuming that there is something beneficial to be gained in learning about religion what you've really done is say "well we'll let you in to our club but you still have to do things our way." That's not really being that inclusive. Why is there a desire to retain a link with learning about religion, and for that matter whose religion?

    Oh, and finally, the other "alternative prayers" still open by praying to a lord which still excludes thouse without religion and buddhists and any other adherent of a religion without a lord.

    I want to ask people a question does everybody think that scouts have to go to mass as scouts?
    Tradition is a fallacy then is what you're saying. An Irish republic was a tradition, science and philosophy have a long tradition and atheism has a long tradition as well.
    The main way scouts generally come to together in a "spiritual" way is a scout's own. it is not a religious service, but a discussion on life and peoples place in it. quotes from buddhism texts (4 immeasurable vows) the Bible (parables) descartes (dualism) and the Quran (stories). people get a chance to talk about things which are effecting them and are listened to.


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    #100
    Scouter123
    Registered Users Posts: 74 ✭✭Scouter123


    lazygal wrote: »
    What about those from a non Christian community who feel they can't join because they disagree with the oath? Or is there simply no one from those communities in scouting looking for change because they all come from the same background?
    PS I was in scouts at an age where I didn't think too deeply about the oath, but couldn't send my daughter, who is of no faith, to scouts if she was required to take such an oath.

    scouts don't take an oath but a promise. no scouting has many cultures in it and it tries to be as inclusive as possible.
    glad to hear another scout is here. in regards to the promise and your daughter did you talk to the scout leader or group leader? im sure there would be a way to see your daughter would be included in scouts, if not get back to me.
    i am asking about how many of you were in scouts in the past or present because i might start something going. would any of yous consider joining scouts if you had a promise with no regard to god and a change in prayers?


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    #101
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Scouter123 wrote: »

    I want to ask people a question does everybody think that scouts have to go to mass as scouts?
    Tradition is a fallacy then is what you're saying. An Irish republic was a tradition, science and philosophy have a long tradition and atheism has a long tradition as well.
    The main way scouts generally come to together in a "spiritual" way is a scout's own. it is not a religious service, but a discussion on life and peoples place in it. quotes from buddhism texts (4 immeasurable vows) the Bible (parables) descartes (dualism) and the Quran (stories). people get a chance to talk about things which are effecting them and are listened to.
    I want to ask why an oath referring to a deity is needed? I want to ask why 'spirituality' needs to be discussed, given that its a meaningless catch all term that has nothing to do with how one conducts oneself. Science is not about tradition, its about robust evidence that can stand up to rigorous empirical scrutiny. Appealing to a supernatural deity to make sure you act properly is patently discriminating against those of no faith.


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    #102
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Scouter123 wrote: »

    scouts don't take an oath but a promise. no scouting has many cultures in it and it tries to be as inclusive as possible.
    glad to hear another scout is here. in regards to the promise and your daughter did you talk to the scout leader or group leader? im sure there would be a way to see your daughter would be included in scouts, if not get back to me.
    i am asking about how many of you were in scouts in the past or present because i might start something going. would any of yous consider joining scouts if you had a promise with no regard to god and a change in prayers?
    She's a little young but I know our local group attends mass and those who aren't Catholic aren't really catered for. There's still prayers and helping at the Eucharistic conference etc which I'm most uncomfortable with. I don't want my child marching into the local church on St Patrick's day and attending mass. But she'd be left out if she didn't. See the dilemma?


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    #103
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Scouter123 wrote: »
    I want to ask people a question does everybody think that scouts have to go to mass as scouts?
    Tradition is a fallacy then is what you're saying. An Irish republic was a tradition, science and philosophy have a long tradition and atheism has a long tradition as well.
    The main way scouts generally come to together in a "spiritual" way is a scout's own. it is not a religious service, but a discussion on life and peoples place in it. quotes from buddhism texts (4 immeasurable vows) the Bible (parables) descartes (dualism) and the Quran (stories). people get a chance to talk about things which are effecting them and are listened to.

    Then why call it 'spiritual' when the more inclusive 'philosophical' would suffice?

    Now personally I think there are many fine aspects to Scouting but I do not see why the fact ' that kids just want to have fun, go away on great camps, hang out with friends, go to a disco, and have an adventure doing it all.' requires then to 'play the game' when it comes to making promises that are distinctly Christian in nature.

    I understand that you love Scouting and I recognise that is does serve a beneficial purpose (which was why I sent my son there), but what you seem to not realise is that there is an element of religious indoctrination (which was why my son refused to go anymore) implicit in these 'prayers' that utterly alienates non-believers.

    We do not want to be 'tolerated' - we demand to be included as equals.


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    #104
    oldrnwisr
    Registered Users Posts: 1,594 ✭✭✭oldrnwisr


    Scouter123 wrote: »
    I want to ask people a question does everybody think that scouts have to go to mass as scouts?
    Tradition is a fallacy then is what you're saying. An Irish republic was a tradition, science and philosophy have a long tradition and atheism has a long tradition as well.
    The main way scouts generally come to together in a "spiritual" way is a scout's own. it is not a religious service, but a discussion on life and peoples place in it. quotes from buddhism texts (4 immeasurable vows) the Bible (parables) descartes (dualism) and the Quran (stories). people get a chance to talk about things which are effecting them and are listened to.

    Can you clarify your question? Do you mean that if someone joins scouts then should they have to go to mass? If so, then no.

    However, having said that what you have actually described in your last paragraph is not something I would consider to be mass. I think your labelling is faulty. I wouldn't have much of a problem with what you describe i.e. reading excerpts from different religions texts. However, I think that the best way of truly teaching children about religion is to tell them: Well Christianity believes X and Islam believes Y and Buddhism believes Z and then show them how much of what each religion claims we can show to be true or false. As Richard Feynman once said:

    "We don't know what's true, we're trying to find out, everything is possibly wrong. Start out understanding religion by saying everything is possibly wrong, let us see."

    Your religious service proceeds by picking passages from religions as if they have some higher truth to impart. It would be more useful to find out if they do or not first. How about teaching the children about reasoning and critical thinking instead. I'll bet you'll end up with more well-rounded scouts because of it.


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    #105
    Scouter123
    Registered Users Posts: 74 ✭✭Scouter123


    lazygal wrote: »
    Science is not about tradition, its about robust evidence that can stand up to rigorous empirical scrutiny. Appealing to a supernatural deity to make sure you act properly is patently discriminating against those of no faith.

    i merely said that science had a long tradition. we dont appeal to a "deity to make sure you act properly". would it be alright if your child could march with the others to the church but not go in and maybe go to a paddy's day parade instead? shed be taking part but wouldnt have had to go in.
    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    I understand that you love Scouting and I recognise that is does serve a beneficial purpose (which was why I sent my son there), but what you seem to not realise is that there is an element of religious indoctrination (which was why my son refused to go anymore) implicit in these 'prayers' that utterly alienates non-believers.

    I do realise there is a possibility of indoctrination but that comes with all learning. but would you want somebody to not realise there are many different cultures and religions. at the scouts own we encourage scouts to come to their own conculisons.

    oldrnwisr wrote: »
    Can you clarify your question? Do you mean that if someone joins scouts then should they have to go to mass? If so, then no.

    i actually meant is that the perception that is the only thing scouts do?
    oldrnwisr wrote: »
    How about teaching the children about reasoning and critical thinking instead. I'll bet you'll end up with more well-rounded scouts because of it.

    i like this idea and i will incorperate it into our next one, thank you. itll be interesting to see how the scouts get on with this. we do teach them these with pioneering projects and planning trips but i can see an excellent use of this

    "The religion of a man is not the creed he professes but his life - what he acts upon and knows of life and his duty in it. A bad man who believes in a creed is no more religious than the good man who does not." BP
    the first is the way religion should be, the second is how it can be. It is better to show a good example in doing good deeds than by going to mass or meditation for an hour. thats wat scouts try to do by helping other people and i believe that scouting is ultimately a good thing in helping people, sure there may be fast flowing waters but eventually the river evens out and thats what i cant wait for, a time when all are fully equal.


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    #106
    Banbh
    Registered Users Posts: 1,037 ✭✭✭Banbh


    If no-one stands up against inequality that time you hope for, when all are fully equal, will never come about. Often people of goodwill don't see that others are being treated unfairly.

    To ask children to take vows or make declarations or attend services of a creed that they and their families don't belong to is unfair.


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    #107
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users Posts: 7,771 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    Scouter123 wrote: »
    scout wouln't be saying the prayer if s/he didn't want to or doesn't believe in a god

    How can you be a scout if you dont say the scouts prayer?
    Why do scouts have a prayer at all if they are supposedly multi-denominational?
    It would be like scouts saying they are multi-sport but expecting everyone to watch the premier league.


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    #108
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Also there's a difference between saying an organisation is multi denominational, which in Ireland means the Prods are included, and non denominational, which means no one is excluded.


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    #109
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,425 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    lazygal wrote: »
    Also there's a difference between saying an organisation is multi denominational, which in Ireland means the Prods are included, and non denominational, which means no one is excluded.
    So you want the atheists beliefs forced on others? People are religious inconsider atheist ism a religion each should be accounted for but not by denying the beliefs of themselves or others


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    #110
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    ted1 wrote: »
    So you want the atheists beliefs forced on others? People are religious inconsider atheist ism a religion each should be accounted for but not by denying the beliefs of themselves or others

    We shouldn't deny the beliefs of the religious so it's ok to impose those beliefs on others? Seriously, have a think about that...


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    #111
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,425 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    Bannasidhe wrote: »

    We shouldn't deny the beliefs of the religious so it's ok to impose those beliefs on others? Seriously, have a think about that...
    That's not what I'm saying, what I'm saying is that the church should be allowed ask for scouts to volunteer without people objecting and starting a thread about it.

    How are they imposing there beliefs, unfortunately when you make up a minority main stream activities won't always go the way you want, if they do then your asking the majority to change there ways to accommodate the few.


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    #112
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    ted1 wrote: »
    That's not what I'm saying, what I'm saying is that the church should be allowed ask for scouts to volunteer without people objecting and starting a thread about it.

    How are they imposing there beliefs, unfortunately when you make up a minority main stream activities won't always go the way you want, if they do then your asking the majority to change there ways to accommodate the few.

    When the majority way 'main stream activities' exclude the minority they should change their ways.


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    #113
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    ted1 wrote: »
    So you want the atheists beliefs forced on others? People are religious inconsider atheist ism a religion each should be accounted for but not by denying the beliefs of themselves or others

    As an atheist I don't have any beliefs to force on anyone, apart from not being an asshole.


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    #114
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    ted1 wrote: »
    That's not what I'm saying, what I'm saying is that the church should be allowed ask for scouts to volunteer without people objecting and starting a thread about it.

    How are they imposing there beliefs, unfortunately when you make up a minority main stream activities won't always go the way you want, if they do then your asking the majority to change there ways to accommodate the few.

    First, its THEIR not there ways. Second, does it not seem a bit mad to divide children's activities on religious lines? Why not divide children up based on height, or eye colour, or the day of the week they were born? I don't get how we constantly make things more difficult by having segregated activities and education that mean those in the minority have to constantly assess whether their children will be exposed to beliefs they don't follow. Would it not be easier for communities as a whole to have no religious element to groups like the scouts? And let religious education, indoctrination and influence stay in the home? Why the insistence that groups like this have a faith element to them? Are parents so worried that their children might not remain in their faith that they need as many activities as possible to be faith based?


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    #115
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,425 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    lazygal wrote: »

    As an atheist I don't have any beliefs to force on anyone, apart from not being an asshole.
    Your lack of beliefs is a belief. That is what your forcing


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    #116
    Scouter123
    Registered Users Posts: 74 ✭✭Scouter123


    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    How can you be a scout if you dont say the scouts prayer?
    Why do scouts have a prayer at all if they are supposedly multi-denominational?
    It would be like scouts saying they are multi-sport but expecting everyone to watch the premier league.

    how can you be irish if you dont know how to speak the language, simple i have a passport.
    Banbh wrote: »
    If no-one stands up against inequality that time you hope for, when all are fully equal, will never come about. Often people of goodwill don't see that others are being treated unfairly.

    To ask children to take vows or make declarations or attend services of a creed that they and their families don't belong to is unfair.

    as i said early if im told how many of you are scouts or were i can say that scouts want something done. we should be allowed to change ourselves by ourselves
    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    When the majority way 'main stream activities' exclude the minority they should change their ways.


    To what extent, what if you lived in Mali or Algeria and a small minority wanted Sharia Law do majority have to change to it.
    lazygal wrote: »
    Would it not be easier for communities as a whole to have no religious element to groups like the scouts? And let religious education, indoctrination and influence stay in the home? Why the insistence that groups like this have a faith element to them? Are parents so worried that their children might not remain in their faith that they need as many activities as possible to be faith based?

    parents dont generally bring their kids, and the kids don't usually, to scouts for the faith element more for the challenge being in scouts bring. the reason why scouts around the world (i feel any) has a religious element is because of the huge growth of scouts in the developing world that have religious beliefs.


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    #117
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,425 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    lazygal wrote: »

    First, its THEIR not there ways. Second, does it not seem a bit mad to divide children's activities on religious lines? Why not divide children up based on height, or eye colour, or the day of the week they were born? I don't get how we constantly make things more difficult by having segregated activities and education that mean those in the minority have to constantly assess whether their children will be exposed to beliefs they don't follow. Would it not be easier for communities as a whole to have no religious element to groups like the scouts? And let religious education, indoctrination and influence stay in the home? Why the insistence that groups like this have a faith element to them? Are parents so worried that their children might not remain in their faith that they need as many activities as possible to be faith based?
    Religion exists get over it. If the scout has no religion then he doesn't need to volunteer.
    As I said before if Cleric or Rabbi asked for volunteers the Catholics wouldn't get upset. You just say no and get on with life.

    You are clearly trying to force you lack of beliefs upon others. You must learn to respect others, it seems you want everyone to adjust to your way of life


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    #118
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    ted1 wrote: »
    Your lack of beliefs is a belief. That is what your forcing
    How is a lack of belief a belief? That's like saying not playing the piano is a hobby.


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    #119
    swampgas
    Registered Users Posts: 3,540 ✭✭✭swampgas


    ted1 wrote: »
    Religion exists get over it. [...]
    You are clearly trying to force your lack of beliefs upon others. You must learn to respect others, it seems you want everyone to adjust to your way of life

    My irony meter just exploded.


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    #120
    Scouter123
    Registered Users Posts: 74 ✭✭Scouter123


    lazygal wrote: »
    How is a lack of belief a belief? That's like saying not playing the piano is a hobby.

    maybe a lack of belief is a way to live your life like what a religion does for people who have a belief


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    #121
    Scouter123
    Registered Users Posts: 74 ✭✭Scouter123


    ive just been watching the simpsons and tod asked flanders "will buddha be there (heaven) too?" to which he replies angrily "NO" i do not want to sound like ive been pushing my views on anybody just trying to fly the scouting flag, i think i haven't been but in case anybody thought i was i apologise for annoying anybody. just trying to have an open discussion.


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